The Gospel

[UrsulaV]

Kathy, I suggest that you watch the "Animal Planet Channel" or perhaps read some material on animal behavior.

If this ends with her trying to do missionary work among the gorillas, I'm totally holding you responsible, dude.

 

[Pauliesonne]

Since we are on the subject of putting Kathy in the gorilla " homeland " I feel the need to repeat a short poem I posted a while ago;

This one goes out to you Kathy;

Someone must have loved you
when you were a child
personally, if it were me
I'd have thrown you in the wild

 

[Nex]

[ snipped for blah ] ...I now live my life in the humility of the cross.

And how can that be, when you are so goddamned arrogant? Last I checked, the humble don't proclaim their humility, and don't tell people how to live their lives.

But then again, you don't care, do you?

 

[kurious_kathy]

And how can that be, when you are so goddamned arrogant? Last I checked, the humble don't proclaim their humility, and don't tell people how to live their lives.

But then again, you don't care, do you?

But I do care Nex. I am not wanting to come across arrogant just because I have strong convictions and want to talk about it with people. It really blows my mind that many people don't believe there is such a thing as absolute truth.

I believe in Christ because He made a believer out of me. It's very personal, and supernatural. Explain the unexplainable. Our God is very much alive and not hiding from people, but I do fear people are trying to hide from Him.
Why is it that only in times of absolute desperation that we seek Him when it could be different? I wish people could just take God at His word.

And I definitely see a huge difference when people believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit gives them insight to more meaning and understanding in the Bible. I guess until someone is a believer they really aren't benefiting enough from just reading it. It just doesn't seem to go anywhere to someone who reads it like any other book that's just a peice of liturature. All Scripture is truely God breathed and inspired.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Hi KK,

If scripture is "God breathed and inspired" the how can you explain this?

The exile in Egypt - no evidence
The plagues - no evidence (and don't all of the cattle get destroyed twice?)
The exodus - no evidence, in spite of there apparently being about two million people involved
The battles in Canaan - no evidence (for example, at the time it was supposed to happen, Jericho was a small village IIRC)

Are these lies from God - sorry, of course not - at least I assume that's what you'll write.

What the OT part of the Bible seems to be is a collection of stolen and rewritten myths from the surrounding people designed to give an insignificant group of people a spectacular and heroic history. Years ago I remember from a MAD magazine a story about the American Pioneers of the West entitled: "True stories from the Legendary Past".

This sums up my thoughts about that part of the Bible.

YBW

 

[Ducky]

But I do care Nex. I am not wanting to come across arrogant just because I have strong convictions and want to talk about it with people. It really blows my mind that many people don't believe there is such a thing as absolute truth.

I believe in Christ because He made a believer out of me. It's very personal, and supernatural. Explain the unexplainable. Our God is very much alive and not hiding from people, but I do fear people are trying to hide from Him.
Why is it that only in times of absolute desperation that we seek Him when it could be different? I wish people could just take God at His word.

And I definitely see a huge difference when people believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit gives them insight to more meaning and understanding in the Bible. I guess until someone is a believer they really aren't benefiting enough from just reading it. It just doesn't seem to go anywhere to someone who reads it like any other book that's just a peice of liturature. All Scripture is truely God breathed and inspired.

The entire response is a non-sequitur.

Oh, and whoever suggest she go minister to the gorrillas, I highly encourage it. I would love to see a 600lb gorrilla respond to her intrusion on its territory.

 

[ChristineR]

But I do care Nex. I am not wanting to come across arrogant just because I have strong convictions and want to talk about it with people. It really blows my mind that many people don't believe there is such a thing as absolute truth.

I believe in Christ because He made a believer out of me. It's very personal, and supernatural. Explain the unexplainable. Our God is very much alive and not hiding from people, but I do fear people are trying to hide from Him.
Why is it that only in times of absolute desperation that we seek Him when it could be different? I wish people could just take God at His word.

And I definitely see a huge difference when people believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit gives them insight to more meaning and understanding in the Bible. I guess until someone is a believer they really aren't benefiting enough from just reading it. It just doesn't seem to go anywhere to someone who reads it like any other book that's just a peice of liturature. All Scripture is truely God breathed and inspired.

Well, no. I was a sincere, serious Christian for many years. The Holy Spirit never spoke to me. I didn't understand the Bible. I found it full of things that contradicted what I was hearing in Church, and full of things that contradicted itself. I only got true understanding of the Bible when I started to read scholarly works that treated it not like "a piece of literature" but as a collection of letters, poems, stories, and legal documents that shaped cultures over the centuries.

I was told many times that I had insufficient faith, or that I just wasn't listening to God. I suppose I have nothing but my own good word to back me up here Kathy, but no one ever listened harder than me. God just wasn't speaking. As for insufficient faith, I don't doubt it. But what does it mean to "have faith?" I certainly trusted in God to take care of me--and he screwed up, big time. I tried to follow God's (very confusing) teachings from the Bible, but all that happened is I got into arguments with people who hadn't read the Bible as closely as I had. And heaven knows I prayed for guidance, for a sign, for anything. But God didn't answer.

I'll tell you what I think Kathy. I think your relationship with God is all in your head. I have no trouble imagining "what would Beth say?" or "what would Grandma do?" when I run into moral and social dilemmas. But I don't need to pretend Beth and Grandma are still alive and speaking to me. It's all in my head, and that's a good thing. I don't know what it is about your brain that lets you believe that what you imagine about Jesus is a real message from Jesus, but I just can't buy into that lie anymore.

So it works for you, and I guess that's good. It just disturbs me how the most devout Christians always seem to be the ones who say "my life was incredibly messed up until Jesus told me to quit being such an idiot and get off drugs and leave the abusive boyfriend." Well, yeah! I'll bet all your friends were telling you the same things for years. Why was it you couldn't listen to them? Why was it you started listening when you imagined it was Jesus telling you all that stuff? I don't know, but I've chosen to go with truth. Plain old simple testable truth. If it means admitting I made a whole bunch of mistakes...well, my mistakes weren't as bad as yours. You have my condolences.

Oh, and Beth and Grandma: if you really are out there reading this, I miss you.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Well said - er, written - Christine.

My Church history was the same as yours in many ways - though I've always found much of the Bible very difficult to read and understand, so have never studied it for long - and certainyl not "religiously"

Hmm - a thought - maybe that's deliberate - confuse the congregation so that they need the Priest/Minister/Whatever to interpret it for them.

"Keep 'em dumb!"

YBW

 

[Nex]

But I do care Nex.

Then why do you not listen to us? You ignore questions, or give nonsensical answers that are totally unrelated to the question. Your actions speak louder than your words, Kathy.

I am not wanting to come across arrogant just because I have strong convictions and want to talk about it with people.

I understand you have strong convictions, but you need to find a better way to express them. You have come across as pompous and arrogant since your first few posts here. You proclaim to be Christian but don't understand a couple of Christ's major teachings -- that of humility, and of treating others as you wish to be treated. Be a little more humble, and give us the respect you would want yourself.

It really blows my mind that many people don't believe there is such a thing as absolute truth...

This had nothing to do with my comments to you. This is where you started answering a question no-one asked. It's called a non-sequitur.

For the record, though, I do believe in an absolute truth. I also believe that absolute truth is unknowable, so it doesn't matter all that much.

As for the rest of this post you made, it's drivel. No-one cares why you believe in Jesus, and more importantly, no-one asked.

 

[slingblade]

Sling it sounds to me like you are blaming God for what your ex did to you. It's not God's fault that your ex sinned against you. I understand it can be quite a challenge to rise above the pain of the past, but you can do it!

A) God doesn't exist, therefore can't be blamed.

B) People like you spent many years lying to me about God and prayer.
People like you told me all I had to do was pray and believe.

C) I prayed and believed.

D) When things in fact got worse, people like you told me it must be my fault. I must not have enough faith. God would answer my prayers if I only had enough faith. God wanted to help me, but I was preventing it. God couldn't help me because I was somehow keeping him from it. It was all my fault, not God's. God is perfect. I am to blame.

I am not angry at God. I am angry at the people who lied to me, blamed me, and who didn't help me when they could have helped me.

People, Kathy. I'm angry at the people who watched me and my children suffer, and who did nothing.

 

[Trantor]

fowlsound,

Oh, and whoever suggest she go minister to the gorrillas, I highly encourage it. I would love to see a 600lb gorrilla respond to her intrusion on its territory.

That's easy. She takes out her Bible, holds it like a shield, and loudly proclaims - "In the name of the Lord, I rebuke you, I command those unholy demons to leave now"!

That poor gorrilla doesn't stand a chance.

 

[atari24]

But I do care Nex. I am not wanting to come across arrogant just because I have strong convictions and want to talk about it with people. It really blows my mind that many people don't believe there is such a thing as absolute truth.

It seems really arrogant to me that you believe there is absolute truth that you somehow have the ability to know while we do not.

 

[Roadtoad]

Ordinarily, I would agree with Shemp on this, and simply call it a thread. But, since there are a number of people reading this for whom this might do some good, I'm responding here on this point.

It needs to be understood that Kathy does not Believe. When I attended Church, one of the things I kept fighting was the notion of Bible Study being the rote memorization of verses, and the choreographed recitation of "facts." I wanted to actually read and discuss what the Bible was saying. If we were going to study the Bible, we needed to read not just what its supporters had to say, but what its detractors said, and why they said it. Either you confront the evidence and make up your mind from there, or you have to admit you believe nothing.

Belief requires more than blind faith. Belief mandates a confrontation with the evidence, and not as you wish to view it, but as it truly is. It can be an ugly, bitter process, but if you have any honesty at all, you have to take it on. This is why Galileo is well regarded while his detractors in his day are considered to be beneath contempt. Galileo made his observations, recorded them, even demanded they be challenged. His detractors engaged in the lowest form of mendacity and cowardice, and while they held sway for a few years more, I don't know of too many who can, off the tops of their heads, list even one of those who demanded that Galileo declare that the Sun revolved around the Earth, as opposed to what we now know is true.

What Kathy does is listen to someone drone on about what the "party line" ought to be. Then, like a dutiful little drone, she heads out and repeats it, repeats it, repeats it. "If I say it enough, they will believe." And if you're dealing with someone who's weak, lacking skills in critical thinking, or simply looking for someplace to belong, eventually, they will. They, too, will become another drone, and they will repeat what they've heard, until they find someone else who will follow along.

It ignores fact. It ignores the real world. But, those who follow this line gain something. They gain control, either over another person, or over some element in their lives which they think they can't control any other way.

Sling can tell us about control over another person. Her husband brutalized her for years, and did so in the name of Jesus. In the meantime, (and this should have been mentioned before, and I'm ashamed that I didn't), there were pastors, deacons, parishioners, all of whom knew what was happening, all of whom knew it was wrong, but in the name of Jesus, kept silent. I've seen it happen, and it's very rare for someone to speak up and put a stop to it because supposedly, if we just pray enough, the evil will stop.

That's not how it works. Evil is stopped when it is confronted. Evil is stopped when it is brought out into the light, and dealt with as evil, not as "sin." We don't pray that child molesters quit molesting kids. We call the cops, they are arrested, they are tried, they are convicted, they are sent to prison. We act like adults and take action.

But more importantly, we don't assume that our goodwill is enough to deal with the problems we face. We stand up and face the facts. The goal is not our maintenance of control; the goal is the greater good for everyone. It means we subordinate our desires to what works to the greater advantage of the majority. (Sorry, but that's the way it really works, and probably the way it should work.)

This is at the center of Civility. It is what makes it possible for us to keep a civilized society, and to advance as a people. And while this will irk some, I should also point out that it's why much of Western Civilization, (though clearly not all), is moving forward.

I'm sure Kathy has strong views on the Pledge of Allegiance. No doubt she'll tell us that the phrase "Under God" belongs to the pledge. She'll tell us that the United States is unique, because we're the only nation brought together "Under God." (I know these arguments well. I used to present them myself.)

Except that it was added in the 1950's, primarily as a response to Madelyn O'Hare's victory in the Supreme Court. There was also the "Red Threat" which we're told needed to be addressed, but I fail to see how attaching religious meaning to what was intended to be a secular declaration of loyalty to the national ideal was supposed to accomplish that. (If anyone knows the answer to that one, please tell us.)

I'm not opposed to religious belief. I still hold to some myself. But when my beliefs are confronted by facts, my faith in God mandates that I go not with what I think ought to be, but what the facts demand they be, ironically, even if it means my rejection of God for lack of evidence.

Oddly enough, when I put my faith to the test with the "Tithe Test," as has been described in other threads, I didn't find my bank account overflowing. If anything, I found I had to scramble to find enough money to feed my family. Frankly, if my faith had any impact on the results or the lack therein, then I fail to see how this does anything but illustrate that God is a bastard of the first order. How can anyone have enough faith? It's not going to happen. The Bible itself tells us this.

This is the real Gospel, as I understand it: You will have hard times. God will be with you through them. At the end of your life, if you believe, you will enter His kingdom. No other warranty exists beyond that. And trying to turn God into some sort of magical Sacred Santa is the same sort of evil which Kenneth Copland and Benny Hinn are guilty of. I know nothing else, and this is in spite of (or perhaps because of) having studied the Bible for the better part of 20+ years.

Considering Atheists live happier lives, and are more confident of their place in this world, and in the next, I have to wonder who's got it right. If I had to guess, it wouldn't be Kathy, whose behavior when suffering is, at best, inexplicable. Considering the number of Atheists I know who are civil, kind, honest, decent people, and the number of Christians I know who are cruel, hateful, deceitful, and vile, the only thing I can say is that I've been better off since I left the Church that I was when I was kneeling at the altar, alone, begging a God who clearly had a different agenda than I did to do such things as heal my wife, help me feed my family, or to even find a job that would at least pay the frigging light bill.

Peggy, by the way, was not healed by God. She had an ovary that was precancerous, but we didn't know that until her doctor, a man of science, performed the operation to deal with her endometriosis and her fibroid tumors. And please don't tell me about the miraculous coincidences involved in all of this. There was nothing miraculous in my wife's excrutiating pain which went on for months, the Pastor who told us he was praying for her, (even as he was trying to prey on her), a man who demanded our money, but couldn't even lift a finger to direct us to someone who could help a family without health insurance get the medical attention necessary to save my wife's life. In other words, the Church which would not do what the Bible says it was supposed to, but the Secular society which did. (And, BTW: the doctor wound up doing it for Peggy for free. We had to apply for Medi-Cal, and in the end, some rubber-stamp punk downtown refused to authorize payment. He said a woman could just suck it up, or words to that effect, and the doctor, bless him, simply told us to not worry about the bill, even as we offered to pay it. If I remember right, he's an agnostic. So much for those "Evil Atheists"...)

Faith requires a test. How do you know what you're doing is right? I have yet to ever see as effective a means as the basic scientific method. We observe, we hypothesize, we test, we observe and codify. It works. It's what helped Jenner create vaccines for Smallpox, it's what put the Wright Brothers into the air, it's what made the Internet possible. (Just ask JJ about that last part, and the value it's played in daily life. Or Phil Plait. Or just about anyone on this board.) It is not an act of faith to continue doing things which do not work. That is called Insanity. And I do not wish to continue being crazy.

I do not wish to be abused any longer, either by others, or by my own hand. I will either do what works, or I will seek out that which does. And in spite of Kathy's declaration of "humility before the Cross," I see no evidence of that in her repeated bleats which follow the same abusive strain. She has become an automaton, repeating the same damned and damnable things over and over again. I know this road, and I got off it before I hit the dead end I know is ahead. You either know how you're getting out, or you ask someone before you get yourself in trouble. I'm done with it.

Either you deal with the real world, or it will deal with you. The latter, I assure you, is very, very unpleasant.

One last thing: Paulie, a little whisky on that tooth should help. It might not help the pain, but it ought to be fun trying.

 

[money]

Beautiful writing, Roadtoad. You've convinced me to go make tacos.

 

[Ducky]

Once again RT wtfpwns kathy in this thread.

Nice job RT!

 

[slingblade]

Nex beat me to the nomination, darn it.
Excellent post, RT.

In the meantime, (and this should have been mentioned before, and I'm ashamed that I didn't) there were pastors, deacons, parishioners, all of whom knew what was happening....

Don't be. I mentioned it. Kathy didn't seem to notice, or understand what that meant if she did notice.

I told how we had to change churches about every six months, because people began to figure out he wasn't Johnny Holyroller after all, or because I asked for help from pastors and they usually declined. But no one ever followed up, once we left. So, feel no shame, RT. You made no error.

I've been thinking about what Kathy said about being angry at God, though. Being an atheist is another form of belief; we've discussed that. I can neither prove God exists, or he doesn't. I once chose to believe he did; now I choose to believe he doesn't. I can't be angry at what I don't believe in, any more than I get angry at Santa because I didn't get a present, or because the Tooth Fairy didn't bring me one thin dime when I lost all my teeth. Damn that slacker Easter Bunny, too.

However, I've been thinking....when I die, if I then find out there is a God, then yes. Then I will be pissed at him. Hotly, outrageously, please, please, send me to hell if only so I can get the fark away from you, you sadistic monster, pissed.

But only then. For now, I'm still angry only at the people, as I said before. I know they are real.

 

[Trantor]

Roadtoad - Great Post.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

RT/Slingblade - great posts!

I wonder if KK is planning to continue with this thread?

If she does, presumably we're about due for some more biblical texts!

YBW

 

[kurious_kathy]

Ordinarily, I would agree with Shemp on this, and simply call it a thread. But, since there are a number of people reading this for whom this might do some good, I'm responding here on this point.

It needs to be understood that Kathy does not Believe. When I attended Church, one of the things I kept fighting was the notion of Bible Study being the rote memorization of verses, and the choreographed recitation of "facts." I wanted to actually read and discuss what the Bible was saying. If we were going to study the Bible, we needed to read not just what its supporters had to say, but what its detractors said, and why they said it. Either you confront the evidence and make up your mind from there, or you have to admit you believe nothing.

Who are you to judge me? I believe everything I share here whether you like it or not. I would appreciate it if you would quit pointing fingers at me RT, you are the one who is playing judge and I don't like it.

I believe we need to compare ourselve to God's Laws and realize we need a Savior to redeem us.Let's recap shall we....

1. Love God Most Of All
2. Worship Only God
3. Respect God's Name
4. Takes One Day A Week To Rest And Worship God
5. Respect Mom And Dad
6. Don't Kill
7. Be Faithful To Your Spouse
8. Don't Steal
9. Always Tell The Truth
10. Be Content With What You Have

Don't you believe in the 10 Commandments? I do and it is quite difficult to remember my past and know God is the only one that can forgive us for breaking those commandments. I myself know I need Jesus. I don't deserve Him, but I need Him. This is my belief.

 

[bluess]

Actually, kk, you are believing in a modified version of Hammurabi's code.

Oh - does hating your father and mother count under the 'Respect your mom and dad' requirement? Because didn't Jesus say unless a man hateth his father and mother he cannot follow the Lord?






Must .... stop .... feeding ..... troll ......