The Gospel

I understand that statement, I just don't understand why people want to abandon the faith. Do they just decide they want something else that within the faith they can not have? Or was it because maybe they saw too many people set a bad examples of what being a Christian is?

Could it be that God never left you.... even though you feel you left him?

You'd have to ask them. I was raised agnostic/atheist, so as far as leaving God goes I can honestly say I've never met the man. Although a born-again friend of mine has told me that even as a nonbeliever I'm still a better Christian than most of the people in his church. Guess the blood of Christ doesn't wash off as much sin as it used to - maybe he should add some OxyClean? :D
 
You'd have to ask them. I was raised agnostic/atheist, so as far as leaving God goes I can honestly say I've never met the man. Although a born-again friend of mine has told me that even as a nonbeliever I'm still a better Christian than most of the people in his church. Guess the blood of Christ doesn't wash off as much sin as it used to - maybe he should add some OxyClean? :D
Awe, but God has warned us that not everyone who goes to church is the real deal either.

Which brings up another point, How do we prove the eveidence of things not seen like love, hope, and faith. Are these things proven by a persons beliefs and actions? Our actions are to reflect what we believe, right? So how do you know there is such thing as love if it's just a feeling? We can't see it but we know it exsists right? Is love just a definition in a dictionary to intellects, or do you know you feel it?
 
Awe, but God has warned us that not everyone who goes to church is the real deal either.

Which brings up another point, How do we prove the eveidence of things not seen like love, hope, and faith. Are these things proven by a persons beliefs and actions? Our actions are to reflect what we believe, right? So how do you know there is such thing as love if it's just a feeling? We can't see it but we know it exsists right? Is love just a definition in a dictionary to intellects, or do you know you feel it?
Kathy,
1) It's nice to see you actually having a conversation.
2) I think you got that order wrong. I have a copy of Faith, Love Hope at home.
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3) Actaully, for me it was some of the more "charismatic" aspects that led me away. I was heavily involved with healing services etc. I started investigating the how behind the "healings" that I witnessed and found that all the pat answers were, well, wrong. One lady that was healed of her persistant cough, had it return within a couple of days. Another guy's cancer hadn't gone into remission as we'd orgionally thought. The more events like this that cropped up, the more I started to doubt. These people were not laking in faith, they had entire forests of mustard trees of faith. Yet their prayers weren't ever answered in the positive. What was ths point? Why did God keep letting these people suffer? I could buy the "learn a lesson" for one or two of them, but the vast majority? No...

At that point, also, I got tired of the crap that masqueraded as Christianity (you know, pew warmers). I decided that I'd take Paul's advice and start testing spirits. I wandered around for a while, "testing" almost all the world's religions and finally I decided that all are bunkum. That led to agnosticism (which I still subscribe to every other thursday) and finally atheism.

So, who let whom down? I tried. I believed. I was on a track to become a minister. God didn't keep up his end of the bargain. "Anything you ask in my name..." what crap.

I'll say this tho. I'm way happier now. I don't have a SKy Daddy to fall back on, it's just me. I'm only accountable to myself. Also, I have no Mystical Bad Guy to blame for my missteps.
 
I agree it would have been nice if a neighbor could have heard what was going on to come over and help. But that just did not happen. What is amazing is at the same time this was happening my husband knew it. I didn't say anything. He did not know where I was at the time. He put's it this way..."the Holy Spirit prompted him to pray."

And wouldn't it have been more amazing if someone who could have done something helpful knew what was happening? What good did praying do?

What was the point in having your husband pray for you, instead of having someone come to your assistance?

And right at the point where this person almost broke my neck...he let go.

You know what? I've been severely physically assaulted on different occasions. And yet - I wasn't killed. If course, I could attribute this to divine intercession. Or maybe the person just wasn't as angry anymore. Maybe they figured they had made their point. Maybe they realized that the criminal charges would be a lot higher. Maybe they never had the intent to kill.

A certain pressence was there that stopped him. I say it was God.
You have no evidence that they let go because of God. You could feel they did, but you have no objective evidence that that was the case. Warm fuzzies aren't evidence.

And again, wouldn't it have made more sense if God had kept the person from assaulting you to begin with?

My life has changed because of one simple truth...isn't that evidence?

People's live change because they see an infomercial on tv. That's not evidence of anything.
 
Awe, but God has warned us that not everyone who goes to church is the real deal either.

Which brings up another point, How do we prove the eveidence of things not seen like love, hope, and faith. Are these things proven by a persons beliefs and actions? Our actions are to reflect what we believe, right? So how do you know there is such thing as love if it's just a feeling? We can't see it but we know it exsists right? Is love just a definition in a dictionary to intellects, or do you know you feel it?

Hmmm. . . good question. I suppose you could put a group of subjects in a situation where they felt the emotion in question, then give them a fMRI scan to see if the same areas of the brain light up in different people - if they all are experiencing "love" and their brain scans look similar, there's some physical evidence.

In a related question: how do you know your faith and it's resulting life-changing experiences actually come from God? People believe all kinds of silly things like ETs being angels and their faith is just as strong as yours, and can change their lives just as your faith changed yours. Can you prove that your faith is real and not a strong self-delusion?
 
I understand that statement, I just don't understand why people want to abandon the faith. Do they just decide they want something else that within the faith they can not have? Or was it because maybe they saw too many people set a bad examples of what being a Christian is?

Could it be that God never left you.... even though you feel you left him?

Abandoning the faith is something that a believer just doesn't do at once. Usually the process is quite painful. Think of it this way. If all you ever thought that was right, and all those that you respected from childhood, suddenly turned out to be crackpots, the realization would be very hard to swallow. At first you would be in denial. Then you'd be filled with extreme anger. The final stage is contentment in knowing that you don't know. The joy of living life without the burden of slavery to ignorance is just bliss.

Seeing others set bad examples is just one of the many things that lead to enlightenment.
 
I understand that statement, I just don't understand why people want to abandon the faith. Do they just decide they want something else that within the faith they can not have? Or was it because maybe they saw too many people set a bad examples of what being a Christian is?

Could it be that God never left you.... even though you feel you left him?

Even though this was incredibly insulting, I'm going to assume, that the points you brought up were simply a result of the BS you've been fed, and that you meant that as a sincere question.

I was raised in what could best be described as a non religious household. My mother was raised in a very fundamentalist Christian environment, but had largely abandonned her belief system by the time she married my father.

I was, however, sent to a Catholic school, as it was the nearest french school to us (by about 45 minutes), and the education in the separate system tended to be of a higher caliber. While I was not baptised, and my parents did not attend a Catholic church, my father bribed the Bishop to let us enroll (I only found this out many years later).

While I had been exposed to certain aspects of the Christian mythology previous to that, it was lumped in with Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Nancy Drew. So it was a bit interesting to learn about it when I started school.

To make an incredibly long story short, I learned within a year or two that while there were some aspects I didn't fully comprehend, questions weren't welcome. How could someone profess to have all the answers, yet couldn't answer the questions of a child?

Sometime in highschool, I quit doing the agnostic flipflopping I was doing, and 'converted' to nontheist.

Why? There's no evidence to support anything other position, in my opinion.

And you know what? It's awesome.
 
I understand that statement, I just don't understand why people want to abandon the faith. Do they just decide they want something else that within the faith they can not have? Or was it because maybe they saw too many people set a bad examples of what being a Christian is?

Could it be that God never left you.... even though you feel you left him?

Could it be that God was never there?
 
Or was it because maybe they saw too many people set a bad examples of what being a Christian is?


Hmmm, that reminds me. Just the other day I saw someone set a bad example of what being a Christian is. Now, let me think. Where was that?
 
Hmmm, that reminds me. Just the other day I saw someone set a bad example of what being a Christian is. Now, let me think. Where was that?


I'm curious as to what you are calling a bad example of being a Christian?

Yes we are to be aware of our conduct and actions, as the world is always at hand to judge when we stumble. At the same time I am reminded of what Paul said:

"Everything is permissible(allowable and lawful) for me;but not all things are helpful(good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power."

1st. Corinthians 6:12 Amplified Text.

I don't want to be linked in with a cookie cutter world view of Christians.

As with Paul, for me, all things are lawful. I have to use discernment on my part on how I edify Christ, and the body.(the Church)

Though not a nostic, I don't see a problem with someone having a few beers.

If I were at a wedding reception, and a friend of mine is at the next table. Let's say he has been on the wagon for ten years. If my cracking open a beer is going to make him stumble, and return to and addictive behavior, (as a dog returns to it's vomit) I would use discernment in this case and choose not to drink, as not to make my brother stumble.

Just and example of course. In your eyes what should my behavior be to be a good example of a Christian?

Johny
 
I'm curious as to what you are calling a bad example of being a Christian?

Yes we are to be aware of our conduct and actions, as the world is always at hand to judge when we stumble. At the same time I am reminded of what Paul said:

"Everything is permissible(allowable and lawful) for me;but not all things are helpful(good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power."

1st. Corinthians 6:12 Amplified Text.

I don't want to be linked in with a cookie cutter world view of Christians.

As with Paul, for me, all things are lawful. I have to use discernment on my part on how I edify Christ, and the body.(the Church)

Though not a nostic, I don't see a problem with someone having a few beers.

If I were at a wedding reception, and a friend of mine is at the next table. Let's say he has been on the wagon for ten years. If my cracking open a beer is going to make him stumble, and return to and addictive behavior, (as a dog returns to it's vomit) I would use discernment in this case and choose not to drink, as not to make my brother stumble.

Just and example of course. In your eyes what should my behavior be to be a good example of a Christian?

Johny

Welcome to the forum.

Hear about us in church from kathy yesterday?
 
I'm curious as to what you are calling a bad example of being a Christian?

As with Paul, for me, all things are lawful. I have to use discernment on my part on how I edify Christ, and the body.(the Church)

Though not a nostic, I don't see a problem with someone having a few beers.

If I were at a wedding reception, and a friend of mine is at the next table. Let's say he has been on the wagon for ten years. If my cracking open a beer is going to make him stumble, and return to and addictive behavior, (as a dog returns to it's vomit) I would use discernment in this case and choose not to drink, as not to make my brother stumble.

Just and example of course. In your eyes what should my behavior be to be a good example of a Christian?

Johny
I think this is a good example. You don't have a drinking problem(which I now would call drinking to get drunk, but your brother does), so you in turn choose not to do anything that may contribute to his weakness. This is being very good and discerning if you ask me.
 
If I were at a wedding reception, and a friend of mine is at the next table. Let's say he has been on the wagon for ten years. If my cracking open a beer is going to make him stumble, and return to and addictive behavior, (as a dog returns to it's vomit) I would use discernment in this case and choose not to drink, as not to make my brother stumble.

Just and example of course. In your eyes what should my behavior be to be a good example of a Christian?

Johny
This assumes that you're the only drinker in the crowd. Wouldn't there be others around that are drinking? Isn't drinking socially acceptable at a wedding reception? How is this really helping your friend?

An example of a bad Christian, is one who decides that their way is the only way and rather than act with Christ's love, bashes everyone who disagrees with them over the head with the Bible.

"GOD LOVES YOU!!!! AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM!!!!!!!!!"

Not going to attract many people, eh?
 
"GOD LOVES YOU!!!! AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM!!!!!!!!!"

Not going to attract many people, eh?


Actually, this attracts many people, sadly.

The threat of eternal damnation is what keeps most people tied to the cult.

The fact that it is totally fake doesn't seem to matter. :(

When someone says something like that to me ("You're going to burn in hell"), I get a pretty good chuckle from it. To me, it's funny....

To other people, it's a real psychological torment...:(
 
I think this is a good example. You don't have a drinking problem(which I now would call drinking to get drunk, but your brother does), so you in turn choose not to do anything that may contribute to his weakness. This is being very good and discerning if you ask me.

How is this an example of being a good Christian? If I had an alcoholic friend, I would probably try not to drink around him. Does that make me a good Christian, even though I haven't accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord, Savior, and Cuddlybear?
 
I'm curious as to what you are calling a bad example of being a Christian?

Yes we are to be aware of our conduct and actions, as the world is always at hand to judge when we stumble. At the same time I am reminded of what Paul said:

"Everything is permissible(allowable and lawful) for me;but not all things are helpful(good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power."

1st. Corinthians 6:12 Amplified Text.

Hmmmm... looks like KK has some competition .....
 
Since you're new, JMB, I'll try and spell it out for you:

1.) We consider it Unchristian to bash other people for any reason, including their sexuality, their beliefs (or lack, therein), or their politics. You may disagree with someone, but there's no cause to belittle or damn someone for that disagreement.

2.) We consider it Unchristian to continue to preach to people who have REPEATEDLY asked that it stop. We prefer to debate here, rather than preach at or to others.

3.) We consider it Unchristian to refuse to give direct answers to direct questions.

Got it?
 

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