The Global Obesity Epidemic

[Skeptical Greg]

My point was not whether the guidelines were being followed, but rather that the guidelines are flawed, which I guess, doesn't really matter.





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[AlaskaBushPilot]

People sit on their asses all day, their kids are inside on computers instead of mowing lawns, riding bikes, or - standing up. I rarely see kids outside in my town, in fact it's close to never. Nobody riding bikes, playing catch...so sad.

People are lazy and love to make excuses and play the victim these days. You and your kids are fat because you choose not to address it properly and I feel that is true in 99.999% of cases.

At homeschool, exercise is school and generally it is either outdoor resource harvesting related or MMA indoors.

If one kid gets sick, I see the other gaining weight because without his partner he's sitting around more too, but stuffing mom's cookies and pork roast in his belly.

It's VERY quickly noticeable. A couple of days off, and you see it. On the other hand, as the regular routine is back in motion they quickly work it off.

The argument you advance here is true in so many things. Education and job skills too.

So really the question is why people are so lazy now. In previous years the laziness manifested in 5 hours of television viewing a day but now it is tv plus video games plus phone sexting and whatnot taking up at least 5 hours a day of the typical fat young and stupid American.

You have enclaves of health. Colorado, as a state, does very well. You find a lot of fitness-conscious people there. So why is that. I dunno.

 

[rustypouch]

At homeschool, exercise is school and generally it is either outdoor resource harvesting related or MMA indoors.

If one kid gets sick, I see the other gaining weight because without his partner he's sitting around more too, but stuffing mom's cookies and pork roast in his belly.

It's VERY quickly noticeable. A couple of days off, and you see it. On the other hand, as the regular routine is back in motion they quickly work it off.

The argument you advance here is true in so many things. Education and job skills too.

So really the question is why people are so lazy now. In previous years the laziness manifested in 5 hours of television viewing a day but now it is tv plus video games plus phone sexting and whatnot taking up at least 5 hours a day of the typical fat young and stupid American.

You have enclaves of health. Colorado, as a state, does very well. You find a lot of fitness-conscious people there. So why is that. I dunno.

I'd argue that Colorado is not doing well at all, it's only a relative thing. Obesity has gone up everywhere in the industrialized world.

Yes, they have the lowest levels of obesity of any US state, at almost 23% as of last year.

But twenty years ago, the highest obesity rate is the US was Mississippi, at just over 19%.

The population of Colorado currently has higher rates of obesity than the fattest state had twenty years ago. I find that a bit concerning.

https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Something else to chew on:


How does obesity cause cancer?

The link between obesity and cancer risk is clear. Research shows that excess body fat increases your risk for several cancers, including colorectal, post-menopausal breast, endometrial, esophageal, kidney and pancreatic cancers.

 

[casebro]

Something else to chew on:


How does obesity cause cancer?

I call "Confounding" on that. Cancer and obesity are both genetic diseases. With lots of overlap. What do twin studies show?

Anecdote: I'm obese. My older brother, heavy, died of pancreas cancer. My younger brother, slim, athletic enough to commute by bike up hiway 34 to Estes Park, is dying of colon cancer. I will out live them both. So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup. Horse/cart? Nope.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Looking at it that way, all disease is genetic, including aging.


The research clearly shows, obesity increases the risk for cancer.

 

[Roboramma]

I call "Confounding" on that. Cancer and obesity are both genetic diseases. With lots of overlap. What do twin studies show?

Anecdote: I'm obese. My older brother, heavy, died of pancreas cancer. My younger brother, slim, athletic enough to commute by bike up hiway 34 to Estes Park, is dying of colon cancer. I will out live them both. So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup. Horse/cart? Nope.

You realise that you and your brothers don't share all the same genes, right?

Also, an individual dying of cancer doesn't demonstrate "cancer genes", unless you think those without said genes have a 0% cancer rate. Similar for obesity.

 

[rustypouch]

Looking at it that way, all disease is genetic, including aging.


The research clearly shows, obesity increases the risk for cancer.

Yep, and obesity is a result of lifestyle. Blaming it on genetics is just an excuse.

Although the research isn't as clear there is also a correlation between obesity and lowered IQ.

 

[casebro]

You realise that you and your brothers don't share all the same genes, right?

Also, an individual dying of cancer doesn't demonstrate "cancer genes", unless you think those without said genes have a 0% cancer rate. Similar for obesity.

A) I told you it was an anecdote.

b) I asked about twin studies. You know, identical twins raised apart. Same genes, different environment. Questions would be 1) are obesity rates the same? 1) is the cancer rate the same?

And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

I'd argue that Colorado is not doing well at all, it's only a relative thing. Obesity has gone up everywhere in the industrialized world.

Yes, they have the lowest levels of obesity of any US state, at almost 23% as of last year.

But twenty years ago, the highest obesity rate is the US was Mississippi, at just over 19%.

The population of Colorado currently has higher rates of obesity than the fattest state had twenty years ago. I find that a bit concerning.

https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/

Yes, there is no denying it.

In statistics, we have cross-sectional comparisons (like between states) and we have time series, which the thread addresses, the increase in obestity for every state over time.

Oftentimes the cross-sectional study reveals something that is changing over time generally, and I will advance that argument now.

It is not only true that Colorado is tops as a state, but across individuals within that state it is the outdoor nuts, the health conscious, the skiiers and hikers and bikers and skaters, etc. that are not obese.

A lot of those types self-select to Colorado for that reason, which explains the average difference by state pretty well. And over time you see the proportion of people doing a lot of active exercise and watching diets declining in Colorado too.

You have to work at being fit in an environment of leisure and plenty. So I am training as a cat burglar. I always wanted to be a second-story man. Grappling hooks, rapelling, and spider-man climbing. Name one cat burglar who was fat.

Ted Bundy got out of jail by fasting down below 100 pounds and squeezing through an air duct. So there are a lot of hobbies closed off to you when you are obese. The question is what motivates each individual. Because not everyone is motivated by the need to continue mass murder and cannibalism.

 

[Roboramma]

A) I told you it was an anecdote.

b) I asked about twin studies. You know, identical twins raised apart. Same genes, different environment. Questions would be 1) are obesity rates the same? 1) is the cancer rate the same?

And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!

Sure, agreed. I have no issue with any of that.

I was only taking issue with:

So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup.

I may have misunderstood, but I thought you were saying that based on your anecdote you could conclude that you, as an individual, had both "cancer genes" and "obesity genes".

That conclusion isn't justified by the anecdote, though you should increase your estimation of the probability that you have those genes above the average in the general population based on what you know from your brothers.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!

Earlier you said:

The genetic 'defect' for insulin resistance is in 40% of people, not everybody. Making weight a genetic variation like height. I'll lose 4" off my waist when you gain two inches of height.

So is your view that genes determine eating patterns, and these are impossible to change?

 

[casebro]

Earlier you said:



So is your view that genes determine eating patterns, and these are impossible to change?

Not impossible, just much more difficult than for those of you who lost ten pounds easily, and say "I did it, why don't you?"

 

[dann]

The global obesity epidemic: Is dietary and animal fat the culprit?
Evidence based on 20 years of investigative journalism.

Neither ... nor, apparently:

From a public health perspective, modern hunter-gatherers may be most remarkable for their relative lack of chronic diseases like heart disease, hypertension and cancer. Obesity rates are low. They have very high levels of cardiorespiratory fitness, even in old age. And Type 2 diabetes and metabolic dysfunction are hardly ever seen.
(…)
Deaths from accidents, gastrointestinal illness and acute infections are common. But those who survive to adulthood often reach old age relatively free from degenerative diseases that are the norm in industrialized nations. They are typically fit and active until the end, suggesting that there is something about their way of life that allows them to age healthfully.
Is there an optional diet for humans? (NYT, Dec. 18, 2018)

 

[dann]

Bill Maher strikes a blow for fat shaming:
New Rule: The Fudge Report | Real Time with Bill Maher (Sep. 7, 2019)


Fortunately, his colleague James Corden strikes back:
James Corden Responds to Bill Maher's Fat Shaming Take (Sep. 13, 2019)


I usually find Bill Maher quite sensible, but this attitude to obesity doesn't seem to be a new thing with him:
Bill Maher In Trouble For "Fat Shaming" Jokes (Aug. 23, 2017)

 

[mgidm86]

Bill Maher strikes a blow for fat shaming:
New Rule: The Fudge Report | Real Time with Bill Maher (Sep. 7, 2019)


Fortunately, his colleague James Corden strikes back:
James Corden Responds to Bill Maher's Fat Shaming Take (Sep. 13, 2019)


I usually find Bill Maher quite sensible, but this attitude to obesity doesn't seem to be a new thing with him:
Bill Maher In Trouble For "Fat Shaming" Jokes (Aug. 23, 2017)

I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically agree with every word Maher said in the first video. Spot on. I don't care one way or the other about Bill Maher but he's 100% correct.

This politically correct attitude about fat "shaming" is probably killing people. It sure isn't helping!

Great video, I'm glad you shared it.

 

[Roboramma]

I'm inclined to agree with you mgidm86, but would just like to point out that whether or not "fat shaming" is a net negative or a net positive is an empirical question.

It's also worth pointing out that there may be both negative and positive ways to go about using peer pressure and other social factors to attempt to alter people's behaviour. Pointing and laughing at people probably doesn't help. Celebrating people for being overweight also probably doesn't help. Encouraging a healthy diet and exercise probably does help.

In China it's completely socially acceptable to make note of someone's physical changes. If you gain 5 pounds here, your friends will comment on it immediately. Similarly if you lose it. And people don't seem to take offence at those comments: they certainly aren't meant to offend, so in this cultural environment they aren't taken that way. When foreigners are offended, people usually find that very hard to understand.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I would rather have some "letting your health go" shaming - which isn't necessarily related to weight.

 

[The Atheist]

I'm inclined to agree with you mgidm86, but would just like to point out that whether or not "fat shaming" is a net negative or a net positive is an empirical question.

But, but, but, it makes fat people cry.

We even have a "fat studies" section at an actual university. Predictably, the professor is gigantically fat and American.

Name Cat Pause.

Not kidding.

 

[dann]

This politically correct attitude about fat "shaming" is probably killing people. It sure isn't helping!

Fat, i.e. too much of it, kills people. What makes you think that a "politically correct attitude about fat "shaming"" kills them? And why do you use "" when you write "shaming"?

I'm inclined to agree with you mgidm86
(...)
Pointing and laughing at people probably doesn't help.

If you think so - and I certainly do! - you can't possibly agree with mgidm86.

Celebrating people for being overweight also probably doesn't help.

Apart from a very small minority of the so-called feeders, nobody celebrates "people for being overweight." Being overweight and saying that you are not ashamed about it and that you are quite happy with the way you are is not a celebration. It's acceptance. And people can live perfectly happy lives without living up to the ideal BMI. In particular, if they still exercise.

If you gain 5 pounds here, your friends will comment on it immediately. Similarly if you lose it.

5 pounds? Really? Or is it hyperbole? Maybe it's me, but unless it's 10-15 kilos, I don't even notice.

I would rather have some "letting your health go" shaming - which isn't necessarily related to weight.

But why shaming? Letting one's health go is usually the consequence of something else. The ruined health is the 'punishment' for that. A very long time ago when I was a conscientious objector, I worked at an institution for people with substance abuse. I witnessed several conversations that the substance abusers had with social workers, but the only one who occasionally seemed to get through to them was an MD, Peter Ege, and the reason was that he never moralized. He refrained from shaming drug addicts and alcoholics and stuck with telling them about the state of their health and what would happen to them if they didn't stop taking drugs or drinking.
I can't see why overweight people would be very different in this respect.

But, but, but, it makes fat people cry.

For some reason, you, mgidm86 and Bill Maher seem to think that shaming fat people and making them cry will help them lose weight. Do you have any statistics to indicate that this is true?

We even have a "fat studies" section at an actual university. Predictably, the professor is gigantically fat and American.

No, that is not at all predictable. If you watch a video from a fat studies conference, people seem to be all shapes and sizes: Fat studies conference challenges supersize stereotypes (Daily Motion, 2012)