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The facts speak for themselves, debunked?

All your little theories are cute and all Algebra, but really...Despite all this yackity yackin' you haven't brought us one solid, irrefutable piece of forensic evidence that's proven us wrong, or proven you right...

I will say again, (and I'm stealing this quote from somewhere, I don't know who)

You're beating a stain in the dirt where a dead horse used to lie.
 
Fact #21
On the morning of 9/11, shortly after the first impact, a homemaker by the name of Maria will get a phone call from her neighbor. "She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye." She notices a group of people sitting on top of a white van. She says, "they seemed to be taking a movie."She calls the police. At 3:31pm on 9/11, the FBI issues a BOLO (be on the lookout) that says, "White, 2000 Chevrolet van...with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center.... Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals." At 3:56pm on 9/11, these individuals are arrested. On 9/14/2001, the owner of Urban Moving Systems flees to Israel. Because of great pressure in late October 2001, the arrested men, allegedly Israeli spies, are released in November 2001. One of the men claims "our purpose was to document the event."

You twoofers should be providing names and sources for these claims, their names we’re Paul Kurzberg, Sivan Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Yaron Shmuel and Omer Gavriel Marmari)

It’s a damn good thing that:

The men were held in detention for more than 2 months, during which time they were subjected to interrogation and lie detector tests, before being deported back to Israel; one of the men (Paul Kurzberg) refused to take the test for 10 weeks, and then failed it.[49]

Now most people know by now that Lie Detectors are completely worthless, but that’s for another thread…
The conclusion?
ABC news cited this report on June 21, 2002, adding that the FBI had concluded that the five Israelis had no foreknowledge of the attacks.

Fact #22
No one has been held accountable, and instead, people that don't deserve it, have been promoted.

That’s funny, I thought Osama, KSM and the 19 hijackers we’re held accountable…And last I checked, Bush’s approval rating (near the end of his term) and his entire administration and even the neoconservative party itself is practically a laughing stock right now. I don’t see a whole lot of those neocon bush minions in the Obama Administration, do you?

Fact #23
On 9/11/2006, 9/11 Family members Donna Marsh O'Connor, Michele Little, and Christina Kminek, along with Kyle Hence (Executive Producer of 9/11: Press For Truth), and Paul Thompson (www.historycommons.org, author of "The Terror Timeline"), called for a new investigation (RealPlayer required) at the National Press Club in Washington D.C. I believe this is the only news outlet to cover it. Over the years, different family members like Bob McIlvaine, Lorie Van Auken, Daniel Wallace (RIP), Barry Zelman, Manny Badillo, and Patrick Welsh have spoken out for the truth. The September Eleventh Advocates have released letter after letter after letter after letter after letter after letter after letter after letter after letter after letter after letter trying to get some truth. The media has been silent.

Did it ever cross your mind that these poor families were influenced by Kyle Hence’s propaganda? Just because the victims have been manipulated by these lies, does not mean they’re evidence for demanding a new investigation is any more or less factual. That’s just appeal to emotion and it’s a cheap blow.

Fact #24
The United States Government has not fully cooperated with international investigations into 9/11. With regards to Abdelghani Mzoudi, the United States "would not allow Mzoudi’s defense to cross-examine bin al-Shibh," and as a result he was acquitted. During an appeal, "Kay Nelm, Germany’s top federal prosecutor, again appeals to the US State Department to release interrogation records of bin al-Shibh to the court. However, the US still refuses to release the evidence, and a list of questions the court gives to the US for bin al-Shibh to answer are never answered." With regards to Mounir El-Motassadeq, his conviction having to do with the 9/11 attacks was overturned after finding that "German and US authorities withheld evidence." He was later convicted for his "Al-Qaeda" membership, but not for 9/11.

So the “fact” here is, he was found guilty of terrorist associations (with whatever evidence was sufficient enough to do so) and convicted? What’s the problem here? He may not have been convicted specifically for 9/11, but he was convicted for being a member of Al Qaeda. The US likely had certain laws and red tape that kept them from sharing this information…If not, then it’s worth looking into, but it still (even if proven correct) doesn’t prove inside job.


Fact #25
As I mentioned in the introduction, the Mainstream Media has not covered the questions concerning the 9/11 attacks as they should, and for the most part, with the exception of small town news, have attacked those that do. According to James Goodale, the founders of the United States "enacted the First Amendment to distinguish their new government from that of England, which had long censored the press and prosecuted persons who dared to criticize the British Crown."

How do you explain Keith Olbermann, Michael Moore, Bill Maher, etc, etc…They seemed pretty damn critical of the administration and no one censored them. Not to mention, Alex Jones doesn’t seem to be dead or in prison specifically for political dissent, nor do ANY of the TM members. What’s also funny is it seems the most commonly used source for the truth movement is mainstream “censored” media…The fact that you even know about this so-called conspiracy PROVES that you're access to information is not as limited as you claim it is.


On 10/31/2005, Reporters Without Borders reported that the United States ranked 44th in the world for Freedom Of The Press "mainly because of the imprisonment of New York Times reporter Judith Miller and legal moves undermining the privacy of journalistic sources.

Mainly? So because of one reporter being arrested, we ranked 44th in the world? Surely there should be some stronger sources that indicate how they arrived at this figure…Not to mention Reporters Without Borders is a Paris-based organization that receives 11% of it’s funding from its own government, which likely leads to a bias that can’t be completely trusted without folow-up and comparison with other sources. Since I don’t know too much about Reporters Without Borders, I’ll have to leave it at that. But considering all the abominable things I’ve heard uttered on the U.S. Mainstream news channels about the left, the right and the “evil” government itself, it leads me to believe these people don’t know what hell they’re talking about.

At the recent RNC, several journalists, including Amy Goodman of DemocracyNow were arrested.

And she’s now a free woman, doing just fine and back on democracynow doing exactly what he used to do…She still has her charges pending, but those charges will likely be dropped due to lack of evidence that she actually did anything wrong…So where’s the oppression here?

Over the years, the Mainstream Media has essentially used George Bush's policy of never tolerating "outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September 11th - malicious lies that attempt to shift blame away from the terrorists themselves, away from the guilty."

This wasn’t a policy, it was just something he said in a speech. He asked for the American people not to tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories (which in retrospect I agree with) that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists themselves (is there something wrong with staying focused on those who attacked us and not speculating about those who have no evidence of attacking us? Especially when the 9/11 attacks themselves seriously comprimised our financial resources to investigate such alternative claims?)

At first, and still, they have referred to anyone that questions the events of 9/11 as "Conspiracy Theorists."

By definition, a conspiracy theory is:
Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. However, it has come almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning.[1][2]
Conspiracy theories are viewed with skepticism and often ridiculed because they are seldom supported by any conclusive evidence and contrast with institutional analysis, which focuses on people's collective behavior in publicly known institutions, as recorded in scholarly material and mainstream media reports, to explain historical or current events, rather than speculate on the motives and actions of secretive coalitions of individuals.
Sound like the truth movement to me!!!

They have done so again, and again. The Mainstream Media has also repeatedly focused on what is considered the "fringe" of the 9/11 Truth Movement, and has ignored the more credible researchers.

Because none of those “experts” could pass a peer review if their life depended on it…Not because their oppressed, but because their idiots pushing bad science and get the recognition they deserve.

Several celebrities have spoken out for 9/11 Truth. Each time one has done so, almost in unison, the Mainstream Media has attacked them.

So? The mainstream media attacks everyone, all the time. It attacks Britney Spears for shaving her head for God’s Sakes…To go as far as blaming firefighters and cops at ground zero for mass murder, they’re lucky a smear campaign was all they got.

They have done so again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

Two agains would have been enough…But I guess you gotta pad a list when it’s full of lies.

They have portrayed those who question the official account as "unpatriotic," and also as "terrorist sympathizers."

It’s not those who “question the official account” that they consider unpatriotic”…It’s those who think the answer to that “question” (with no soild evidence) is a result of hundreds of American citizens employed with various agencies throughout the United States (FEMA, CIA, FBI, Bush Administration, FDNY, NYPD, ETC) are responsible for the treason (many of which had close friends and colleagues died that day). Accusing tons of innocent Americans of attacking America without a shred of solid evidence, displays not only a lack of respect for those institutions (for no reason) but a hatred for those who work specifically FOR America. That’s damn near the definition of unpatriotic!!! (Now that’s just an opinion of mine, I could be wrong)


As pointed out in Fact #23, the media has also ignored the 9/11 Family Members who question the official account, but they have also given a lot of attention to people like Ann Coulter that have attacked some of those family members again, and again, and again. The September Eleventh Advocates responded to Coulter's remarks. The media has heavily promoted movies like "Path To 9/11" which are factually incorrect, and ignored movies liked "9/11: Press For Truth," which calls into question the entire 9/11 Report, and is endorsed by the family members that fought for it. The MSM have also repeatedly said that if you question the official account of 9/11, you are dishonoring the family members.

Well, there are other family members out there that you’re still not honoring!!! Mainly THOSE WHO BELIEVE THE OFFICIAL STORY…Your essentially calling the survivors that disagree with you SHEEPLE in so many words. Not very honorable...The only families you seem to care about, are the ones that support your agenda.

Fact #26
The 9/11 Commission was mandated to give a “full and complete accounting” of the attacks of September 11, 2001 and recommendations as to how to prevent such attacks in the future." The 9/11 Commission had the power of subpoena, but rarely used it. Instead, they used what were called "document requests" which could be, and were ignored. "We were set up to fail." The 9/11 Family Steering Committee was made up of 12 family members, including the "Jersey Girls." They monitored the commission, they worked with the staffers of the commission, and they provided 100's of well researched questions for the commission to answer. According to 9/11 Commission Chair Thomas Kean, "They monitor us, they follow our progress, they've supplied us with some of the best questions we've asked. I doubt very much if we would be in existence without them." The 9/11 Commission only answered 30% of the families questions.

Regardless of any of these claims (whether true or not) It still shows no actual, physical tangeable proof that 9/11 was an inside job. Just that the commission had about 20 billion questions to answer and did not have the time and resources to answer them all. Have you seen how thick the report is already? They didn’t have all the money in the world to conduct this investigation, they most certainly covered all the important questions, just because some we’re left out does NOT mean they attempted to block certain inquiries, they simply prioritized them based on a limited budget.

Fact #27
The level of fear that resulted from the attacks of 9/11 was nourished and maintained, and still is to this day. Reich Marshal Hermann Goering once said "of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

This is an opinion, not a fact…But its all the same to twooferz.

On 6/23/2007, Glenn Greenwald wrote about how insurgents in Iraq were being referred to as "Al-Qaeda" more frequently. He states, "what makes this practice all the more disturbing is how quickly and obediently the media has adopted the change in terms consciously issued by the Bush administration and their military officials responsible for presenting the Bush view of the war to the press." Fox News once suggested "Al-Qaeda" was responsible for starting California Wildfires. Keith Olbermann ran two stories that I know of regarding the political usage of "terror threats." The New York Times recently ran a massive story on how military analysts with "ties to military contractors" were being used by the Pentagon to "shape terrorism coverage from inside the major TV and radio networks." They "have echoed administration talking points, sometimes even when they suspected the information was false or inflated."

This just goes to show you that our media is not as censored as you think. It seems this is all knowledge to us BECAUSE of our freedom of press…So that disproves your previous statement about our lack of freedom in the press. Even if all of THIS is true as well, people obviously didn’t fall for it, if they did, the neo-cons would still be running the show.
Fact #28
The 9/11 Report was, and is promoted as a triumph. The Washington Post reported that it is "a useful analysis of the changes that have taken place since, as well as the changes that have not taken place, " and calling the commission's unanimity and comprehensiveness "impressive." WaPo also reported that "the final report is a document of historic sweep and almost unprecedented detail, offering the sort of examination of a highly classified subject that customarily would not be possible for decades after the fact. From the findings of spy agencies to the tactics of fighter pilots, from the conversations of heads of state to the verbatim texts of secret presidential briefings, this is the government laid bare."
The New York Times reported that it was "uncommonly lucid, even riveting," and is an "improbable literary triumph." Time Magazine said the report was "meticulous in its reconstruction of the attacks and unflinching in its conclusions about why the government failed to stop them." The 9/11 Commission's report was nominated by the National Book Foundation in 2004 for best in Non-fiction. Former Representative Katherine Harris referred to the 9/11 Report as "one of the most important publications of our age." Senator Hillary Clinton said the 9/11 Commission's report was "a great testimony to the their willingness to search hard for the truth, to get at the facts." Senator Charles Schumer said the 9/11 Commission did an "incredible job." In 2004, Bush's Presidential Campaign said "the Commission's report makes the case for the policies that U.S. President Bush has been pursuing in the War on Terror and eliminates any doubt that the best defense against the threat of global terror is a strong offense." Bush said, "I agree with their conclusion that the terrorists were able to exploit deep institutional failings in our nation's defenses that developed over more than a decade." A different kind of praise for the 9/11 Report has come in the form of requests for "9/11-Type Commissions" for other horrible events in America's history such as Katrina and the recent "financial crisis."

I couldn’t agree more!!! This is a great fact!!! Yes, I would love to see a 9/11 commission style report on Katrina and the Bailout!!!



Fact #29
Osama Bin Laden has not been indicted for the 9/11 attacks. Some time before 9/26/2001, FBI spokesman Rex Tomb says, "there’s going to be a considerable amount of time before anyone associated with the attacks is actually charged." He continues, "To be charged with a crime, this means we have found evidence to confirm our suspicions, and a prosecutor has said we will pursue this case in court." On 9/23/2001, then Secretary of State Colin Powell is asked, "will you release publicly a white paper which links [bin Laden] and his organization to this attack to put people at ease?" He responds by saying "we are hard at work bringing all the information together, intelligence information, law enforcement information. And I think in the near future we will be able to put out a paper, a document that will describe quite clearly the evidence that we have linking him to this attack." The following day, then White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer when asked about Powell's statement says "I think that there was just a misinterpretation of the exact words the secretary used on the Sunday shows.… I’m not aware of anybody who said white paper, and the secretary didn’t say anything about a white paper yesterday." On 10/4/2001, Tony Blair will present a paper that makes the case for Osama Bin Laden's involvement before Parliament. It says, "this document does not purport to provide a prosecutable case against Osama bin Laden in a court of law.” Nevertheless, it continues, “on the basis of all the information available [Her Majesty’s Government] is confident of its conclusions as expressed in this document." On 6/6/2006, Rex Tomb will say, "the reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11."

Hard evidence = physical evidence…They don’t have bin ladens finger prints at the scene of the crime, they don’t have a complete 100% link to his crime. Therefore they can’t conclusively say they have evidence. But they have plenty of things pointing directly to Bin Laden, like the tape he recorded ADMITTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ATTACK!!! But this tape, just like in any other court case, is still not conclusive enough to prosecute, see the pro’s make sure they actually have all their ducks in a row before they go pointing fingers, unlike the Truth Movement.

Hence these statements in your “facts”:

Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings."

They speak to Rex Tomb who says "There's no mystery here" [...] "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it." According to David N. Kelley, a former U.S. attorney, "It might seem a little strange from the outside, but it makes sense from a legal point of view," said Kelley, now in private practice. "If I were in government, I'd be troubled if I were asked to put up a wanted picture where no formal charges had been filed, no matter who it was."

Contrary to WaPo's claim that "bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings," Osama denied any involvement in the attacks on three separate ocassions. On 9/16/2001, he says, “I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons.”

Here’s a Bin Laden Quote you have to overlook to believe this:
And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same, and that we had to destroy the towers in America, so that they taste what we tasted and they stop killing our women and children.
- Bin Laden Oct.04 al-Jazeera TV

On 9/28/2001, he says, "I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of battle.…


Another quote from Bin Laden you conveniently ignored:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.
- Bin Laden Interview with ABC reporter John Miller (May 1998)



The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the US system but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology can survive. They may be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the US itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups capable of causing large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who have been annoyed with President Bush ever since the Florida elections and who want to avenge him.…Then there are intelligence agencies in the US, which require billions of dollars worth of funds from Congress and the government every year.… They needed an enemy.… Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United States? That secret government must be asked who carried out the attacks." On 12/26/2001, Bin Laden releases a tape that says the U.S.'s invasion of Afghanistan is "a vicious campaign based on mere suspicion." On 9/10/2008, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino will be asked a question. "But Osama bin Laden is the one that — you keep talking about his lieutenants, and, yes, they are very important, but Osama bin Laden was the mastermind of 9/11 –" Her response is to say that "No, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind of 9/11, and he’s sitting in jail right now."
Yes, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed IS the mastermind and IS in jail!!! You found a fact!!! Good job!!!

Bin Laden was the major financier and supporter, but not the one who planned it. And in these quotes above, it sounds like he’s not only contradicting himself, but talking like a bonafide truther!!! Secret Governments, the Jews, Bin Laden didn’t do it, etc…You guys are terrorist sympathizers in other words. Are you also denying his involvement in the 2 US embassy bombings and the USS Cole Bombing? Because he proudly admitted that too!!!

I'll respond to more of these as I develop the patience to do so...The JREF'rs here are better at this debunking business than I am (as I'm still a bit of a NOOB) but I will at least do my part....

Gotta go for the day, but I'll see you folks around!!!
 
Fact #1

The Bush Administration was predominantly made up of members of an organization called "The Project For A New American Century."

What's the lie?

OK, how do you define a 'member' of the organization? The members seem to be listed here (from wiki):

Project directors

* William Kristol, Co-founder and Chairman[1]
* Robert Kagan, Co-founder[1]
* Bruce P. Jackson[1]
* Mark Gerson[1]
* Randy Scheunemann[1]

Project staff

* Ellen Bork, Deputy Director[1]
* Gary Schmitt, Senior Fellow[1][50]
* Thomas Donnelly, Senior Fellow[1]
* Reuel Marc Gerecht, Senior Fellow[1]
* Mitch Jackson, Senior Fellow
* Timothy Lehmann, Assistant Director[1]
* Michael Goldfarb, Research Associate[1]

Former directors and staff

* Daniel McKivergan, Deputy Director[51]

Out of those people, how many Bush Administration principals? I don't think any of them were, even if they had associations..(Randy Scheunemann was an advisor to Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq, for example)

Again, you'd have to define what a member is, and also you'd have to define the 'Bush Administration'.

Let's look at the principals of the Bush Administration:

Person:__________________Signatory to PNAC _____ Member of PNAC
George W Bush President______no_________________no
Dick Cheney, VP_____________yes_________________no
Condoleeza Rice, NSA_________no_________________no
Donald Rumsfeld Sec Def______yes________________no
Colin Powell SS______________no_________________no
George Tenet CIA ____________ no_________________no
Alberto R. Gonzales AG_________no_________________no
Andrew Card, CS_____________no__________________no
John Negroponte, DNI_________ no________________-no
Michael Chertoff DHS__________no_________________no

2 out of 10 (20%) were signatories, 0 out of 10 were members.


So far, if you look at the principals, there are no members of PNAC, but there are 2 signatories to the 'Statement of Principles'.

If you start including all the deputies and assistants, it gets little better, since out of all those second-tier people (that's a lot of people) you come up with Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Paula Dobriansky, Elliott Abrams during the first Bush term. That's 4 or 5 people out of dozens.
But while this is significant, and important, when considered against the dozens of other people in the administration, it is not by any stretch a 'predominant' number -

So one could easily show that both claims
1) That PNAC members predominantly made up the administration
2) That people like Cheney et al. were PNAC members

are either completely untrue, or gross overstatements and distortions of the truth.

Would you call it a lie? I can see why people would, with justification.

This isn't to understate the influence of those signatories on the Bush administration. Was it a predominant influence? I think that's true.

It's not dissimilar from truther assertions that Ben Chertoff (Pop Mechanics) is a cousin of Michael Chertoff (Dir Homeland Security), so the Pop Mech book was corrupted by the Bush administration.
The cousin thing? Most likely a lie, as is the corruption charge.

Nor much different from the Marvin Bush/WTC security allegations. Anybody who states that GW Bush used his brother to circumvent WTC security and allow demolitions teams to place explosives in the towers is telling a lie, whether consciously or not.

When Richard Gage says that Iron microspheres in WTC dust could only have come from a aluminothermic reaction, he is telling a lie. It doesn't matter whether he believes it or not. It's still false, it's still a lie.

Does that answer the question?
 
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OK, how do you define a 'member' of the organization? The members seem to be listed here (from wiki):

Project directors

* William Kristol, Co-founder and Chairman[1]
* Robert Kagan, Co-founder[1]
* Bruce P. Jackson[1]
* Mark Gerson[1]
* Randy Scheunemann[1]

Project staff

* Ellen Bork, Deputy Director[1]
* Gary Schmitt, Senior Fellow[1][50]
* Thomas Donnelly, Senior Fellow[1]
* Reuel Marc Gerecht, Senior Fellow[1]
* Mitch Jackson, Senior Fellow
* Timothy Lehmann, Assistant Director[1]
* Michael Goldfarb, Research Associate[1]

Former directors and staff

* Daniel McKivergan, Deputy Director[51]

Out of those people, how many Bush Administration principals? I don't think any of them were, even if they had associations..(Randy Scheunemann was an advisor to Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq, for example)

Again, you'd have to define what a member is, and also you'd have to define the 'Bush Administration'.

Let's look at the principals of the Bush Administration:

Person:__________________Signatory to PNAC _____ Member of PNAC
George W Bush President______no_________________no
Dick Cheney, VP_____________yes_________________no
Condoleeza Rice, NSA_________no_________________no
Donald Rumsfeld Sec Def______yes________________no
Colin Powell SS______________no_________________no
George Tenet CIA ____________ no_________________no
Alberto R. Gonzales AG_________no_________________no
Andrew Card, CS_____________no__________________no
John Negroponte, DNI_________ no________________-no
Michael Chertoff DHS__________no_________________no

2 out of 10 (20%) were signatories, 0 out of 10 were members.


So far, if you look at the principals, there are no members of PNAC, but there are 2 signatories to the 'Statement of Principles'.

If you start including all the deputies and assistants, it gets little better, since out of all those second-tier people (that's a lot of people) you come up with Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Paula Dobriansky, Elliott Abrams during the first Bush term. That's 4 or 5 people out of dozens.
But while this is significant, and important, when considered against the dozens of other people in the administration, it is not by any stretch a 'predominant' number -

So one could easily show that both claims
1) That PNAC members predominantly made up the administration
2) That people like Cheney et al. were PNAC members

are either completely untrue, or gross overstatements and distortions of the truth.

Would you call it a lie? I can see why people would, with justification.

This isn't to understate the influence of those signatories on the Bush administration. Was it a predominant influence? I think that's true.

It's not dissimilar from truther assertions that Ben Chertoff (Pop Mechanics) is a cousin of Michael Chertoff (Dir Homeland Security), so the Pop Mech book was corrupted by the Bush administration.
The cousin thing? Most likely a lie, as is the corruption charge.

Nor much different from the Marvin Bush/WTC security allegations. Anybody who states that GW Bush used his brother to circumvent WTC security and allow demolitions teams to place explosives in the towers is telling a lie, whether consciously or not.

When Richard Gage says that Iron microspheres in WTC dust could only have come from a aluminothermic reaction, he is telling a lie. It doesn't matter whether he believes it or not. It's still false, it's still a lie.

Does that answer the question?

You are now beating the tale of the dead horse.
 
This will be my only response other than to say that TAM's argument about making the hijackers Iraqis is irrelevant blah blah blah blah blah...

How are your friends and family these days, Jon?


"This is my whole life now... it's taken up my life. You know, my friends, they really don't even associate with me anymore. Because when I obviously started doing this I was telling everybody about it, and everybody thought I was a nut, so obviously those relationships were strained and they don't really exist anymore."

- Jon Gold

Oh right.... nevermind. Just forget I asked.
 
I hate when I know the real truth but everybody else in my life thinks I'm nuts.
 

"This is my whole life now... it's taken up my life. You know, my friends, they really don't even associate with me anymore. Because when I obviously started doing this I was telling everybody about it, and everybody thought I was a nut, so obviously those relationships were strained and they don't really exist anymore."

- Jon Gold

That is one big piece of sadness. How godamn ****** is that. Come over to the rational side again Jon...

TAM
 
I did the first 14 for someone on youtube once, no sense in it going to waste, I suppose. It should be red with the 40 reasons in front of you for reference:
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646


1. AWOL chain of command
a) This is how the government functions, not all officials are available for all activities or decision making all the time. The notion they "found an excuse" is severely loaded and postulates they knew about the attacks in advance and uses that to prove they knew about the attacks in advance. Such circular logic is a severe flaw in reasoning.
b) Presumably none of these men knew who would be in charge. The confusion was considerable, and expected: an unprecedented attack with an unfamiliar and unforeseen pattern, from multitude of angles, from out of the blue and they didn't manage to establish a proper hierarchy. There was too little time and too much confusion.

The concern 1 is therefore demonstrated as severely flawed. There is enough here to criticize the government, but far too little to prove any deliberate wrongdoing.

2. Air defense failures
a) Outright lie, standard procedure was followed.
b) That's probably because the failures of each agency was their own. Not that there has been proven at all that there even was an operational failure at any point, the agencies followed plans and those plans were inadequate for the situation. That's planning failure, not operational failure.
c) There is absolutely no evidence of an air defense stand down.

The concern 2 is based on a lie and a gross misrepresentation of the situation. As such, the remainder of the list should be called into question for validity.

3. Pentagon strike
Prior to 9/11, flights originating from US were not seen as a potential threat, therefore Flight 77 striking the Pentagon was far from impossible. There was no response from the nearby airbase because it didn't have any airplanes on fight alert, as is the normal operation. It had combat ready fighters, which means they can deploy in 24 hours. Obviously 80 minutes is far less than that time. The maneuver described as acrobatic was in fact a simple spiral dive, aimed at the side that was the easiest to hit (which also happened to be the renovated side), and the maneuver was executed in a manner consistent with a rookie pilot. These concerns are based on outright lies.

The concern 3 is based on extremely poor research and lies. Obviously this pattern throws a blanket of doubt over the reminder of the document.

4. Wargames
a) Outright lie, or a gross misrepresentation of the situation. Parts of 9/11 were part of various drills, but there was no war game simulating multiple hijackings and deliberate crashing of planes into buildings. All three examples given are lies. In fact, a scenario about a deliberate crashing was proposed (but not trained), but was considered "too unrealistic". The facts stand directly against the claim.
b) They ignored the issue, because it is not grounded in fact, obviously.

The concern 4 is based on outright lies. A pattern is already emerging in the document.

5. Flight 93
It crashed on 10:03:11, the seismic report was inaccurate in it's timing, the experts at the seismic laboratory agree with this assertion. A vast majority of the plane was found in one spot, with some minor debris scattering around because of the force of the crash. There was no 'trail of debris' for miles, but only some minor pieces that were only found downwind and in the direction the plane was flying. If the plane was shot down, major pieces would be found in the other direction, none were found.

The concern 5 is based on very poor research of the topic, coupled with ignorance of what happens when the plane is shot down. It doesn't contain any outright lies, which is an improvement from before, but it still places severe doubt about the validity of the research.

6. Possible smoking guns
Yes, the phones worked, even at 30,000 feet, though that is irrelevant. Cellphone calls from the flights were made from a lower altitude, where they worked much better, though they were shown to work poorly on 9/11. A vast majority of calls were made from air phones, only two or three calls were made through cell phones. Four hijackings were attempted, about 4500 flights were eventually diverted. There is nothing suspicious here.

The concern 6 is based on poor research, and provides absolutely no point which could lead to doubt about the official story. This is rather significant, since it is presented as the 6th top reason. Any other reasons should be even less significant as this one.

7. Demolition hypothesis
WTC 7 was destroyed due to unusually severe fires, which raged throughout the day, and could not be fought. In September 2008, NIST presented a comprehensive study explaining the collapse. This might have been a legitimate concern until then, but has since been discredited. In contrast, the collapse mechanism for the two towers was known for years, and required absolutely no explosives. The studies were never disputed from an engineering perspective, hence they could be judged as accurate.

The concern 7 is based on lies by omission. Not only there are reliable studies showing no explosives were present, but there is also absolutely no evidence showing there were explosives (the evidence discussed in the points presented was refuted a long time ago).

8. What did the officials know, when did they know it?
a) Lie, no such warnings were made. There were a few unspecific warnings, much less than would be needed to prevent the attacks.
b) No such individuals were named by anyone. This is significant, since names were mentioned in earlier points. This point is in all likelihood a complete fabrication.
c) Only one individual received such a warning, and the threat was completely unconnected to 9/11.

The concern 8 is again based on lies and poor research.

9. Able danger, surveillance of hijackers
a) This clearly demonstrates that US security was not ignoring them, it was doing it's job, yet it didn't do it well enough. If anything, this is evidence against any complicity, surely they would ensure their own agents were not watched, so that any plot would remain hidden.
b) FBI asset would not mean an agent, but someone who gives out information to the FBI. Though somewhat suspicious, this is in no way indicative of any complicity.

Point 9 is the first factually true point, yet it's implication are highly unreasonable, given the evidence. It doesn't prove anything in itself, and the sorrounding evidence points strongly against the conclusions.

10. Obstructions of investigations
Much like point 9, this is again based on sloppy research and poor interpretation of evidence. There are multiple institutional reasons why the FBI behaved as it did without requiring complicity (the whole thing is too long to reproduce here). There is, however, absolutely no evidence presented that would show obstruction of investigations.

Point 10 is based on poor research and not grounded in fact.

11. Insider trading
a) The operative word is 'allegedly', the ones profiting were thoroughly investigated and found not to be connected to the 9/11. The put options, though spiking in the days leading to the attacks, went much higher several times earlier in the year. These stocks were falling, and people were making money from that. Nothing unexpected or unusual.
b) These claims too were investigated and the notion "suspicious" is simply wrong.
c) See point b)

Point 11 is based on poor research and not grounded in fact.

12. Who were the perpetrators
a) Not at all. Like with the recent plane crash in Iran, a surprising amount of vulnerable material might survive - including personal documents. The presumption made here is that the hijackers wanted to keep their identities secret - this is in direct contrast to the MO of Al-Queda, and it would in fact be expected from them to want to reveal their identities once the attacks were completed.
b) This is, at best, a matter of personal opinion, if that much. Obviously the last claim is a lie, they weren't ignored in the official investigations, if official accounts show them to have doubles, have traveled, etc.
c) Presumably any such claims, if they ever were indeed made, related to both the hijackers and those planning the attacks. A few were indeed apprehended, like Mossaui. The story cited comes from an unnamed source however, and it may not be credible. It is notable that it is dated as September 13th, 2001, two days after the attacks, with nothing newer available. As such the claims it makes can be discounted.

Point 12 is based on poor research and not grounded in fact.

13. Who is Osama?
a) A group of experts, involving those investigating visual and audio evidence. The "most important video" is proven to be genuine, only extremely poor research 'showed' it to be fake. No alternative translation was made, hence it cannot be claimed to be fraudulent.
b) No on both counts. The claims were made by one newspaper, citing an unnamed source, and were denied by all involved. The fact this is not pointed out is a major flaw in research.
c) This is a loaded question, there is absolutely no evidence anywhere he was allowed to escape.
d) This is based on a lie, and there is absolutely no evidence they ever served the CIA.

Point 13 is based on extremely poor research and unfounded allegations and not grounded in fact.

14. Signs of a systematic cover-up
a) This claim was made in one book, and it's description is so dubius as to border on impossible. It is a lie, nothing more.
b) No evidence of this claim is presented.
c) see point b)
d) see point c)

Concern 14 is based on poor research and not grounded in fact.

McHrozni
 
8. What did the officials know, when did they know it?
a) Lie, no such warnings were made. There were a few unspecific warnings, much less than would be needed to prevent the attacks.
b) No such individuals were named by anyone. This is significant, since names were mentioned in earlier points. This point is in all likelihood a complete fabrication.
c) Only one individual received such a warning, and the threat was completely unconnected to 9/11.

The concern 8 is again based on lies and poor research.

One person does claim to have known in advance of the attacks and to have accurately predicted them. Namely the leader of the idiots parade, Alex Jones.

However, he managed to get the date, the targets and the perpetrator behind the attacks wrong. Despite the enjoyment many of us would have at watching Jones get punished for failing to stop the attacks, he didn't know anything either.
 
TAM's argument about making the hijackers Iraqis is irrelevant considering the Bush Administration fooled the country into thinking Iraq was involved with the special interest media at their disposal (I covered that in Fact #12). You don't remember all of those polls that showed how many people thought Iraq was involved with 9/11, and even some polls where people actually thought the hijackers were Iraqi?

Consider they wanted to go to Iraq, so they decided to orchestrate 9/11. Now they have some basic decisions to make.

We want to go to Iraq, but from which nation should the hijackers be from?

Option A: Iraq nationals

We can straightforwardly blame Iraq and Saddam. We need no more excuses for the invasion. Only a short period between the staged 9/11 and the Iraq invasion is needed. We will certainly have the support of our entire nation.

Option B: Saudi nationals

We cannot straightforwardly blame Saddam, so we blame Osama. We go chase him in Afghanistan, and later try to include Saddam in the picture. We try to claim that there are WMD's in Iraq, inspectors will search through the country but will not find anything. However, we must insist that there are WMD's nonetheless and are able to start the invasion no earlier than 18 months after the staged 9/11.

If you planned the operation, which option would you choose?

Option B is so ridicilous it could not have been planned as a part of the 9/11 scheme. Unnecessary risk, time delay, much more complicated chain of events, too many variables (the totally unnecessary and irrational WMD saga), and why oh why frame the Saudis? Someone needs to explain why framing the Saudis makes any sense, any sense at all in any inside job plot.
 
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Hey Algebra. Why did you run away?

What was PNAC's New Pearl Harbor about again?

Come on twoof. Give us a summary. Show off those excellent research skills.
 
and why oh why frame the Saudis? Someone needs to explain why framing the Saudis makes any sense, any sense at all in any inside job plot.

There is always the ultimate get away free card: they framed Saudis [or any other unlikely event] in order to make a conspiracy less believable. The fact it worked just proves the conspirators were very cunning indeed.

McHrozni
 
One person does claim to have known in advance of the attacks and to have accurately predicted them. Namely the leader of the idiots parade, Alex Jones.

However, he managed to get the date, the targets and the perpetrator behind the attacks wrong. Despite the enjoyment many of us would have at watching Jones get punished for failing to stop the attacks, he didn't know anything either.


If I'm remembering correctly, his "prediction" consisted entirely of, "If something big happens, we'll know who's responsible." There may have been a general time frame, like "before the end of the year", but... other than that... he's simply playing Ministry of Truth by claiming he actually predicted 9/11.
 
Gee, how amazing of Alex Jones...

Someone wants to blow up something big in the USA...hmmmmm I wonder what they will aim at to get the most publicity bang for their buck...

1. Disney World
2. WTCs
3. Pentagon
4. White House
5. Capitol Building

6. Hollywood
7. Empire State Building
8. Statue of Liberty
9. Sears Tower

He is simply ****ing amazing...what a psychic.

TAM:)
 
If I'm remembering correctly, his "prediction" consisted entirely of, "If something big happens, we'll know who's responsible." There may have been a general time frame, like "before the end of the year", but... other than that... he's simply playing Ministry of Truth by claiming he actually predicted 9/11.

As I recall, he said the targets would be "the US and Israel", the time frame would be june-july 2001 and the perpetrator would be the "hidden global elite".

It wasn't Israel that got hit, it wasn't june or july and it wasn't the NWO. I call that 0 for 3.
 
Here are the main ingredients of his "prediction".

- US Government will use terrorism as a pretext to get something done.

- We have seen the news stories that the US government wanted to blow things up, and have blown things up.

- The govt are saying 4 millions of us are gonna die and we need matrial law.

- We are aware who the terrorists are if you pull this.

- White house preparing for martial law.

- If there is any terrorism we know who to blame, if any terrorism comes it's from this government.

- If there was any outside threat like Bin Laden who was a CIA asset (and bla bla), he's the boogie man they need.

- As you research govt terrorism and check out that all I say is true, we know the government is planning terrorism.

- We know Oklahoma City and WTC (1993) was terrorism, we know that the joint chief of staff wanted to blow up airliners.

- If you do it (referring to terrorism in general, not blowing up planes and certainly not flying them into buildings) we are gonna blame you, because we know who is up to it.

- Or if you let some terrorist group do it, like WTC (again referring to the past 1993 incident, not future), we know who to blame.


To sum it all up, here are his predictions:

He is repeating a dozen times that if any terrorism at all takes place, he is going to blame the US government.

He says the USG is preparing for martial law, and need staged terrorism to get things done. 4 million people are going to die.

That's it, that's all he predicted.

All the other topics (OKC, WTC 1993, Northwoods) are things that took place in the past, and for which he had already blamed the US government for ages and repeatedly, so naturally he mentions them here also.

Him mentioning Bin Laden is really no prediction either, it's just repeating the name of a man who had already been blamed for other attacks including USS Cole. Also, a month before Alex's "prediction" Al Qaida had released a recruitment video featuring Bin Laden, in which they encouraged further attacks. So this is no prediction at all, just putting his name up there where it already was.



Later his site has claimed that, quote "Alex Jones predicted the 9/11 attacks stating 'Osama Bin Laden would be blamed for flying planes into buildings including the WTC'". Then they link to that abovementioned and discussed video.

This is clearly not the case, but a lie. He did not predict blowing up the planes, nor flying them into the WTC or any other building whatsoever. As I said he talked about past events and then went back to talking about future terrorism in general and who he is going to blame if anything happens, nothing specific.

From that link to his site you can also see, that in August 2006 he predicted this:

"He (Alex) is now stating for the fist time since 9/11, that all indicators suggest a massive terror attack is imminent, facilitated by corrupt rogue elements in western governments, possibly before October."

Did that prediction come true? Of course not. We just don't hear about those failed predictions so often.
 
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