Merged The Fabrications of Neil deGrasse Tyson

[Meed]

Really? And NdGT's attack on GWB was not pathetic???

But there is a difference. NdGT's attack on GWB was based on an untrue story.

Again, I am no GWB fan, but in my book, if you slag a man off using untrue facts then you should withdraw and apologise.

Is that unreasonable?

Nope, perfectly reasonable. Not sure why people are defending NDT on this TBH. It's not an unforgivable act, but it's worthy of criticism and does warrant an apology.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Tyson's getting a James O'Keefer edit of the facts from the right wing. They are distorting what Tyson said Bush said.


Bush has said at least once that the god he believes in named the stars.

Here's an example:


George W. Bush, January 28, 2003, State of the Union address

#47: “The Columbia is lost. —The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today. The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely to Earth but we can pray they are safely home.”

If you listen to Tyson's speech, the part about Muslims is not Tyson quoting Bush, it's Tyson's own words putting Bush's comments in context.

Start at 1:40.

I'm not sure if the award ceremony picture of Bush was Tyson digressing or if that's when tyson heard the quote. The award ceremony was not within a week of 9-11.

I'll look further later but Bush did say his god named the stars. And the right wing is attacking Tyson's cred for bashing Bush.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you listen to Tyson's speech, the part about Muslims is not Tyson quoting Bush, it's Tyson's own words putting Bush's comments in context.

And that context is entirely false.

I'll look further later but Bush did say his god named the stars. And the right wing is attacking Tyson's cred for bashing Bush.

You really don't get it, do you?

Tyson did not criticize Bush for saying that God named the stars. He criticized Bush for trying to foster an us-vs-them attitude about Muslims using the Bible as justification in the wake of 9/11. But he did nothing of the sort. He referenced the Bible in order to try to offer solace to grieving families following the Columbia disaster. Different time, different context, and completely different purpose. If Bush had done what Tyson had claimed he had done, he would deserve considerable criticism. But what he actually did does not deserve it.

But it's all still truthy to you, apparently.

 

[ravdin]

Nope, perfectly reasonable. Not sure why people are defending NDT on this TBH. It's not an unforgivable act, but it's worthy of criticism and does warrant an apology.

This is all absolutely forgivable. If NDT were to come clean and admit he messed up, I would regain the respect for him that I've lost.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This is all absolutely forgivable. If NDT were to come clean and admit he messed up, I would regain the respect for him that I've lost.

I'll let him know not all is lost.

 

[Meed]

Passing up seeing NDT would be a mistake, he's excellent in person.

Well I'm not saying I definitely wouldn't see him. I heard him on a radio interview once and I enjoyed him, so I'm sure he would be good in terms of speaking ability and charisma. This makes me a little more wary of his content though.

I think JJ has it right about this trivial nitpicking over paraphrasing to make points, it's coming from people with other agendas.

As for Bush, I have a daily calendar of 365 stupid things he's said, so whether or not he made one more stupid statement, who cares?

Tyson's getting a James O'Keefer edit of the facts from the right wing. They are distorting what Tyson said Bush said.

Why must you engage in this type of trivial nitpicking of the right wing media?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... Why must you engage in this type of trivial nitpicking of the right wing media?

Because that is exactly what is going on. The whole bash Tyson effort is coming from the right wing echo chamber. I'm not making it up. One glance at the websites when you search for the topic is your first clue: FrontPageMag, National Review, The Federalist. What do you want to bet you can find it on Breitbart?

The Right’s War on Neil deGrasse Tyson

The article speculates on a dozen possible reasons.

Conservatives were quick to jump on the charges: websites like Twitchy and FrontPage Mag soon joined the anti-Tyson charge. Meanwhile, PJ Media’s Ed Driscoll found that Tyson repeated a myth about NASA developing a million-dollar space pen while the Soviets used a pencil.

From Snopes it looks like Tyson simply repeated a common myth without checking its validity. It happens.

That doesn't make it a fabrication, it makes it repeating what you've heard without checking that it wasn't correct.

How many of us repeated the Lemming myth until it became more commonly known that it was from a Disney movie, not nature? How many otherwise intelligent skeptics still think a coat in cold weather contributes to preventing illness, or that Linus Pauling's vitamin C study gave a valid result?


Despite Ziggy and the rest of our resident right wingers' POVs that Tyson's comments about Bush weren't correct, a lot of people, myself and others included, believe Tyson got the context of the Bush comment right.

We could argue about this till the cows come home, no one is going to change their POV. But you can't argue Bush wasn't an outspoken unapologetic Evangelical.

I found a quote that supports Tyson's claim he heard Bush repeat the comment about God naming the stars. Every word Bush spoke wasn't scripted or transcribed. That Bush speech writers don't recall Bush ever saying it is refuted by the record, Bush indeed said he believed God named the stars. That is an extremely ignorant comment whether it was a slam on Muslims or not. Does Bush actually think the names of the stars are all listed in the Bible?

Apparently the Bible says God has names for all the stars. There's no evidence he shared any of those names with humans. You have to wonder why Bush repeats this particular Bible trivia, but clearly he has on at least one occasion.

And I can understand Tyson feeling Bush was Islam bashing in his speeches after 9-11. A lot of people felt that same impression from Bush's words and actions.

The bottom line, there's no evidence Tyson has been fabricating stories. There is evidence he repeated at least one myth, but that happens. Some myths just sound believable and we get sucked in until it comes to our attention it's a myth.

As for Tyson not answering the charges. If you've ever heard his Pluto talk or read his Pluto book, he was attacked relentlessly by kids and adults who thought he was dissing the planet. I can see him developing a thick skin after such an experience.

 

[squealpiggy]

I attended a wedding recently at which the Best Man intimated, with no attempt at independent corroboration, that one of the bridesmaids had sex with the groom just before the ceremony.

Was it Neil DeGrasse Tyson? He's always pulling that kinda crap at weddings.

 

[EHocking]

Never mind, waited too long.

Story of my life.

And my wife's apparently.

 

[Roboramma]

Sorry, but NGT's comments were simply wrong. And I can't see any way to make it out as a simple mistake rather than a purposeful distortion. I do, as I said earlier, think that he distorted the facts for entertainment value, rather than because he actually wanted to attack Bush (I think he was just looking for a good anecdote to start off his talk on the naming of the stars), but that doesn't mean it's a reasonable thing to do.

 

[PixyMisa]

I found a quote that supports Tyson's claim he heard Bush repeat the comment about God naming the stars.

So? Where is it then?

You have to wonder why Bush repeats this particular Bible trivia, but clearly he has on at least one occasion.

It's perfectly clear from context why Bush used this quote from the Bible, and Tyson's spin on it is unsupportable.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This teacup deserves a larger tempest.

 

[Ziggurat]

From Snopes it looks like Tyson simply repeated a common myth without checking its validity. It happens.

Yes, it does. And it's embarassing (or it should be) when it does, because 1) he's supposed to be an authority, he shouldn't be repeating myths that Snopes has already debunked, and 2) he should know better, because (as others have pointed out) it's kind of obvious why using a pencil in a spacecraft is a bad idea, and it should have tipped him off to check out the veracity of the claim. He didn't, which makes him gullible.

That doesn't make it a fabrication, it makes it repeating what you've heard without checking that it wasn't correct.

That's like saying that someone who says Obama was born in Kenya isn't fabricating anything because they heard it somewhere else and didn't check it. Not really much of a defense.

Despite Ziggy and the rest of our resident right wingers' POVs that Tyson's comments about Bush weren't correct, a lot of people, myself and others included, believe Tyson got the context of the Bush comment right.

Then you have proven yourself clueless, because once you know the actual context, it's obvious that Tyson got it wildly wrong.

We could argue about this till the cows come home, no one is going to change their POV.

You know, I actually agree with that: you won't change your view because you're unwilling to consider evidence that doesn't flatter your bias.

But you can't argue Bush wasn't an outspoken unapologetic Evangelical.

First, it's telling that you seem to think this is, in and of itself,

I found a quote that supports Tyson's claim he heard Bush repeat the comment about God naming the stars.

That wasn't even close to the full extent of Tyson's claim. You should know that by now. The fact that you don't can only be a result of dishonesty or willful ignorance.

That Bush speech writers don't recall Bush ever saying it is refuted by the record, Bush indeed said he believed God named the stars. That is an extremely ignorant comment whether it was a slam on Muslims or not. Does Bush actually think the names of the stars are all listed in the Bible?

Wow. Just... wow. In trying to portray Bush as ignorant, you have merely revealed that you yourself are ignorant of the Bible and religion. Do you have any idea what that statement is actually supposed to mean?

And as for whether or not it's a slam on Muslims, that's not some side issue, that's pretty much the CENTRAL issue of Tyson's claim. That was the entire point of his (false) anecdote: to claim that Bush was slamming Muslims using the Bible as justification.

Apparently the Bible says God has names for all the stars. There's no evidence he shared any of those names with humans.

And Bush didn't claim so either. Furthermore, that's not even the only reference Bush was using, and likely not even the main one. A better candidate is Isaiah 40. But again, the Bible's claim that God named all the stars is not intended to mean that they're contained within the Bible. The Bible itself never suggests that, and again, neither did Bush. So why would you even try to use that as an argument? Do you think we're stupid enough to think that has any relevance? Or did you honestly think that it was relevant?

You have to wonder why Bush repeats this particular Bible trivia

No, you don't have to wonder at all, if you bother to actually listen. His meaning was pretty damned clear: God cares about everyone, in particular (for the purposes of his speech) the astronauts who died on the Columbia.

I get that you're not religious, that you don't know or understand matters of faith, and that you have contempt for the belief in god. But to people who are religious, this was a message of comfort in a time of grief. Why is that a bad thing to offer to people? It isn't. Nor does it resemble the message that Tyson claimed Bush was trying to convey.

And I can understand Tyson feeling Bush was Islam bashing in his speeches after 9-11. A lot of people felt that same impression from Bush's words and actions.

A lot of people are idiots, and get impressions which don't resemble the truth. Bush went out of his way to try to convey the message that "Islam is peace", and he even took crap from the religious right for it.

The bottom line, there's no evidence Tyson has been fabricating stories.

Hooray! Tyson doesn't make crap up himself (well, actually he probably does, like his jury duty story which keeps changing), he merely repeats stories other people fabricated!

Wow, what a ringing endorsement.

Some myths just sound believable and we get sucked in until it comes to our attention it's a myth.

Isn't science supposed to be about not simply accepting what "sounds believable"? Shouldn't the standard, especially for prepared speeches, be a little higher than "I heard it on the internet and never bothered to check Snopes"?

 

[Ziggurat]

Was it Neil DeGrasse Tyson? He's always pulling that kinda crap at weddings.

Actually, it was Bill Nye. You wouldn't think it, but he's a mean drunk.

 

[PixyMisa]

This teacup deserves a larger tempest.

Eh.

The thing is, these are pretty minor transgressions. But they're dishonest, and they're indefensible. People trying to fabricate excuses are coming across as crazier than the ones who think this is some major blow for science.

 

[PixyMisa]

Isn't science supposed to be about not simply accepting what "sounds believable"? Shouldn't the standard, especially for prepared speeches, be a little higher than "I heard it on the internet and never bothered to check Snopes"?

Particularly when the speech is given repeatedly. I've seen two different versions of the Bush diatribe on Youtube.

 

[Robin]

Bush indeed said he believed God named the stars. That is an extremely ignorant comment whether it was a slam on Muslims or not. Does Bush actually think the names of the stars are all listed in the Bible?

Apparently the Bible says God has names for all the stars. There's no evidence he shared any of those names with humans. You have to wonder why Bush repeats this particular Bible trivia, but clearly he has on at least one occasion.

Well, news flash, GWB was a Christian. Rumour has it that there may have been other Presidents of the United States who were Christian.

So, he is addressing some people whose families have died in the Columbia disaster and he quoted something out of the Bible because his speech writers probably thought it appropriate - you know, stars/astronauts. Corny, I know but maybe not such a big deal. The quote does not say exactly that God names the stars, but that he calls each of them out by name. I would say it is probably a poetic way of saying he knows each and every star. Bush goes on to say that God who knows the names of the stars also knows the names of those lost in the disaster. It is supposed to be comforting and, for all I know, was comforting for those listening.

And I can understand Tyson feeling Bush was Islam bashing in his speeches after 9-11. A lot of people felt that same impression from Bush's words and actions.

Would you care to cite some of these words and actions from which you gained this impression.

You know he did quote some scripture after 9/11 - he quoted the Quran at the Islamic Centre in Washington. He called the Quran "eloquent". That is some nasty Islam bashing, no mistake.

He said "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace.". Yep, I can see how you got the impression that he was Islam bashing. What other nasty divisive things did he say about Islam? How about this:

"When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race."

Or this:

"America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect."

Maybe this one gave you the impression:

"Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value."

Really sowing the seeds of division there. Or this:

"I've been told that some fear to leave; some don't want to go shopping for their families; some don't want to go about their ordinary daily routines because, by wearing cover, they're afraid they'll be intimidated. That should not and that will not stand in America."

He said that American Muslims love America just as much as he does.

I cannot recall a single instance of him going back on that or even dog-whistling, but if you can find examples please post them.

In fact the greatest criticism he receive was that he was too close to some Muslims who were related to Bin Laden, that he did business with them.

Now nobody in the thread has said, I think, that NDT invented the story. But it is not true and it implies that Bush was shamefully sowing division when in fact Bush was seeking to unite.

Again, it seems like common decency simply to retract and apologise.

 

[theprestige]

[...]

Would you care to cite some of these words and actions from which you gained this impression.

You know he did quote some scripture after 9/11 - he quoted the Quran at the Islamic Centre in Washington. He called the Quran "eloquent". That is some nasty Islam bashing, no mistake.

[etc.]

Ironically, Tyson ends up looking more intolerant and divisive than Bush did.

 

[marplots]

Heroes should be more heroic. There's a fly in my soup.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

@Zig: Believing a long held widespread myth like Lemming suicide and catching a cold from being cold are not analogous to believing a widespread bunch of crap like Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya. Nope, sorry, that analogy is a fail.