The Exodus Myth

[Leumas]

Which is BS. And generally, nothing says 'just peddling BS' like having to dig up an unsupported supposition from 1616, and still not showing the maths.

Because God knows astrophysics didn't advance in that time

But really it IS dumb rationalization BS. Even when going retrograde, Jupiter actually goes backwards, before starting going forwards again. It does not hover exactly over one place for months on end. Essentially it does an S shape in the sky, with the moments it actually is still (as in, zero angular velocity) being measured in fractions of a second. After that it starts moving too much to pinpoint anything on Earth. The idea that it would pinpoint exactly one barn for months on end isn't astronomy, it's just pulling BS rationalizations out of the ass.

Plus, it wouldn't be some special event to get the Magi moving, as it is a normal event that happens for 4 months every 9 months or so. You don't go look for a messiah for an event that happens every 9 months.

Not that it would help if even if it actually stood still in the sky, since at a circumference of 40,000 km or so, an error of even a second of even a second of arc, i.e., 1/(360x60x60), i.e., far finer than they could POSSIBLY measure, means 30m off. An error of a minute of arc (STILL above what they could actually measure) is 1800m, or almost 2km. The very idea that that would point out a specific barn is stupid squared.

So, yeah, that's just BS rationalization.

If you're gonna claim some kind of being right by virtue of astronomy, then frikken actually do astronomy, which in turn means MATHS. Don't just pull vague rationalizations out of the ass.

Exactly^1e100!!!

 

[I Ratant]

The Star of Palmdale, from another vantage point.
The manger would be right beneath it.
Can't do that with something in space, and stay on the ground.

 

[HansMustermann]

Germania was called so in Roman because Germanicus conquered it. It is called Alemania/Allemagne in Spanish/French because as far as they were concerned the main tribes there were the Alemannis.

While generally I agree with your posts and they are most welcome, that particular assertion is technically incorrect. Actually Roman titles like "Germanicus" or "Africauns" or "Thrax" were based on the enemies that a general distinguished himself against, not the other way around. Essentially "Germanicus" would mean "gained his fame against the Germans", just like "Africanus" (e.g., Scipio) meant he gained his fame in Africa, NOT the other way around.

Germania was simply called after the Germani, a presumed tribe that lived around the Rhine. The term "Germani" is as old as Julius Caesar's account of his Gaul campaign, possibly the name the Celts gave those people, but either way it appears LONG before anyone was ever called "Germanicus". In fact, the first person to be called Germanicus happens a little after the time we turned the watches from BC to AD, too late to possibly explain why Caesar called those guys the "Germani".

 

[MG1962]

You state things as if they are historical facts to support the Biblical myths but the only place those "facts" you state are found are in the Bible.
.

I am not going to waste my time with the rest of your ill informed post. But I will make one simple challenge to you. Where in this this thread....or any other thread on this site have I ever claimed Exodus is either true, or has any science suggesting it is true?

 

[Leumas]

that particular assertion is technically incorrect.

[....stuff showing impressive historically correct knowledge....]

Well, I think you are wrong....


I don't know why or how or who or when.... but I know that I cannot be wrong, so I will find a way to prove you wrong.

Even if I do not find a way I will invent one .... but one thing is for sure.... my mind is never going to change .... if I admit I am wrong my world would collapse around me and since that is not what god wants for me, the only possible conclusion would be that you are wrong despite not being able to prove my stuff as right and simultaneously not being able to disprove your wrong stuff as wrong.

Besides, who the hell is this Julius Caesar guy.... can you prove what he said.

While generally I agree with your posts and they are most welcome,

Likewise for you..... in fact I usually look forward to seeing what you have to say about something. Sometimes I read a post just because you contributed to it.

I stand corrected by your superior knowledge on the matter. I was told my "fact" a century ago by a teacher of history when I questioned him on why the different names in the different languages.... I took it for granted he knew what he was talking about...oh well. I never bothered to check since it was not that important anyway (to me at least).

 

[MG1962]

Because God knows astrophysics didn't advance in that time. A calculation based on CIRCULAR orbits, which is what Kepler was proposing all the way to his death, would of course actually predict planet positions when we now know they have elliptical orbits and precession. No, really

Enjoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion

And as a passing observation (pun intended) could you point out to me where in Matthews narrative it is claimed the star hovered over a specific point please?

 

[I Ratant]

Enjoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion

And as a passing observation (pun intended) could you point out to me where in Matthews narrative it is claimed the star hovered over a specific point please?

.
Matthew 2:1-12
1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him." 3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. 5 "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written: 6 " 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.' " 7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him." 9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route. "

 

[Leumas]

I am not going to waste my time with the rest of your ill informed post. But I will make one simple challenge to you. Where in this this thread....or any other thread on this site have I ever claimed Exodus is either true, or has any science suggesting it is true?

Sorry if I was not clear, when I said :

You state things as if they are historical facts to support the Biblical myths but the only place those "facts" you state are found are in the Bible.

I was not saying you think Exodus is historical (you do not), I was referring to the stuff you said in your posts I quoted in this post.

Yes - at the time of Exodus the place had been reduced to a ghost town. It slowly began to rebuild until the Babylonian invasion both destroyed the city and sent the population into exile.

Later Cyrus the Great re-established the city on behalf of the Jews after allowing them to return to their homeland. The Hebrew scholars (at the time keen to point to God's intervention on behalf of his reformed people) put together the Battle of Jericho to show priory

Well the planet was weaseled in 398 years ago by Johannes Kepler. Who proposed the theory I am expressing in 1616. He calculated a fortuitous conjunction between the planets Jupiter and Saturn as the most probable reason behind the excited reaction of Magi.

And to be fair the period of history you mainly work in can lend itself to that. Especially as some of the sources still alive where present at the event.

Also additional examples

Exodus is the same. It was not trying to create historical context, it was written to try and make sense of the plight of the Jews during the Babylonian exile. There is upwards of a 600 year gap between when the events of the Exodus where supposed to have happened and when the information was written down. We have a further gap of 900 years before the book is codified into the Bible. And then a gap of 1500 years in which some people decide Exodus is absolutely true because it is in the Bible.

But in a sense that is the whole point of Exodus. It had to mirror the plight of the culture that wrote story all those years later. Exodus is talking the Hebrews who had gone into captivity during the Babylonian incursions. It is designed to create the hope that if people are worthy of God. God will eventually lead them to salvation through direct action.

 

[I Ratant]

Here's some candidate stars...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=99sgZHvObbQ
.
And imagine the affect on the Earth to say nothing of the Solar System to have a flaming hot millions of tons star 200' off the surface of the Earth.
The Solar System would go all whackadoodel, just like all the stories in the book.

 

[tsig]

I am not going to waste my time with the rest of your ill informed post. But I will make one simple challenge to you. Where in this this thread....or any other thread on this site have I ever claimed Exodus is either true, or has any science suggesting it is true?

How do you decide which part of the bible is true?

ETA: You are aware that there's as much evidence for the Exodus as there is for the Crucifixion?

 

[MG1962]

Sorry if I was not clear, when I said :




I was not saying you think Exodus is historical (you do not), I was referring to the stuff you said in your posts I quoted in

The history of Jericho - I assume a UNESCO website summarizing its history will suffice.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5704/

Here is a very good article discussing the history of digs at the site - referencing Kathleen Kenyon, and some of the controversy about the site she had to deal with

http://www.ancientdigger.com/2011/12/walls-of-jericho-archaeology-that.html

Now for Cyrus the Great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Chronicles

As for the return of Jews and rebuilding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Cylinder#Biblical_interpretations

As to my comment regarding sources in my discussion with Gawdzilla - You do realize he is a published historian who's focus is early to mid 20th century history. And I think you will agree there are still some WW2 veterans alive

As to my comments about the authorship of Exodus and when it was written.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fRXjfa6RWPwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Exodus#v=onepage&q&f=false

Jump to page 31 for the discussion

 

[MG1962]

How do you decide which part of the bible is true?

ETA: You are aware that there's as much evidence for the Exodus as there is for the Crucifixion?

So it is your contention that all the Roman accounts of crucifictions are made up? That is a very odd position to hold.

 

[tsig]

So it is your contention that all the Roman accounts of crucifictions are made up? That is a very odd position to hold.

All your strawmen are belong to us.

 

[MG1962]

All your strawmen are belong to us.

Ah okay, so pointing out the Roman's principle method of killing people who had annoyed them is now a strawman?

 

[ddt]

Well the planet was weaseled in 398 years ago by Johannes Kepler. Who proposed the theory I am expressing in 1616. He calculated a fortuitous conjunction between the planets Jupiter and Saturn as the most probable reason behind the excited reaction of Magi.

But that still doesn't explain how the "star" could have pointed the way to the Magi. I think you're missing the whole point of I Ratant's posts.

Suppose that "star" (in your conjecture, a conjunction of two planets) stood to the SSW at the firmament. You're in Jerusalem, as Magi, and you follow the road SSW and arrive at Bethlehem. Fine. But in the real world, this "star" doesn't magically then stand overhead - it still points to SSW at the firmament - unless it's exactly at the same long/lat at the firmament as Bethlehem is on earth. But can you see the difference between the long/lats of Bethlehem and Jerusalem in the sky? So you walk on and you arrive at Hebron. And in Hebron, the "star" is still pointing to the SSW, so you pack up again and move on and arrive at Beersheba. And there again you see it pointing SSW, so you move on to - Dimona?

 

[ddt]

I am related to otherwise normal-seeming, (relatively) intelligent people who want me to organize a kosher camping trip in the Sonora Desert so they can "experience what the Children of Israel went through."

Does that trip include a re-eneaction of the Golden Calf episode? Have you agreed on how many people can be killed for worshipping the Golden Calf? And I presume as organizer of the trip, you get to do the killing?

 

[ddt]

Also consider the bits in the story where Moses is supposed to have talked to all the Israelites. He must have invented TV and Loud Speakers, because I cannot see how one man can speak to 2 million people at the same time!

Good point. I was at the Catholic World Youth Day in 2005 in Cologne. There were "only" 1 million people there, on a field prepared years in advance, and there were loudspeakers and flat screens all over the place so people could actually see and hear Benny XVI.

Thank you for your informative posts, and Rincewind likewise.

FTR: I'm not Catholic.

 

[ddt]

Agreed. Exodus is trying to say that the Israelites were helped to leave Egypt by God. Does it have in addition a non-factual moral message that God is trying, without complete success, to enunciate, like a tongue tied teenager? If that is God's purpose for the work, why is it full of false history, preposterous accounts of the construction of the Ark of the Covenant and other artefacts, and bloodthirsty commands to destroy or enslave neighbouring peoples?

Maybe it's there just to show how bloodthirsty YHWH is? After all, Pharaoh was prepared to let the Israelites go, but then YHWH hardened his hard, so Pharaoh reneged, and YHWH could have his pound of Egyptian flesh.

 

[ddt]

Rincewind you have presented a very well written account for which I have no immediate way of responding.
There is certainly a lot of interesting things being said, that would take a year to analyse.
I doubt if there could be a counter presentation, because it will be this one said this, and that one said that.
There may be people who can present evidence to verify the Exodus.

But what one person has said sums it up—take away the Exodus you take away the central point of the faith.
So in order to establish the faith—there must be evidence presented to confirm the Exodus.

If you think Exodus is a central point of faith, why haven't you already searched for that alleged evidence years ago? I'll give you a hint: there is none.

 

[ddt]

Which is BS. And generally, nothing says 'just peddling BS' like having to dig up an unsupported supposition from 1616, and still not showing the maths.

Because God knows astrophysics didn't advance in that time. A calculation based on CIRCULAR orbits, which is what Kepler was proposing all the way to his death, would of course actually predict planet positions when we now know they have elliptical orbits and precession. No, really

Nitpick, but Kepler was actually the guy who proposed elliptical orbits. (otherwise, his second law would not make sense )