The Exodus Myth

[Slowvehicle]

I spent a number of years in the desert—so what are you insinuating?

Do you know what "insinuating" means? (In English, not in bethekese.)

You do not speak of the desert as one who has spent time in one.

So how long after the Exodus was the exploration done?

Since you are coy about your opinion of when, in fact, the Rape of Egypt and the Despoiling of Canaan are supposed to have happened, I decline to put words in your mouth.

However, the Sinai peninsula, and the "Holy Land", have been extensively explored and excavated, primarily by those hoping to find evidence to support their beliefs.

By the early 19^th Century CE, bible-hunting archaeology was a going concern.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

Conservatively, the explorations were begun no less than 3500 years after the "event".

How was the exact route determined?

You're shaking the dog at the stick, again.

None of the proposed routes have yielded any evidence of a multi-million-strong throng. None of the places identified as "Kadesh- Barnea" demonstrate the presence of any such. None of the sites of "conquest" give any evidence of the arrival of the "conquerors".

What sort of materials were being investigated?
What sort of technology was being used?

Do you know enough about archaeology for an answer to these questions to make sense to you?

No "materials" of any kind--charcoal, orts, middens, bones, dung-heaps, graves, artifacts--what have you, have been found to indicate the presence, or passage, of 2 million + people (to say nothing of their stock).

The area has been investigated with everything from foot-on-the-ground exploration/excavation to multi-spectrum satellite imagery.

It still does not prove the Exodus did not take place, because nothing was found.

You do realize that the responsibility, the onus probandi, lies with you, and those making the claim, to "prove" that the "exodus" did, in fact, take place; not the other way around. Right?

 

[Paul Bethke]

If we know where these places were we could dig for bones.

So then it could be said that nothing was discovered because people did not know where to look?

 

[MG1962]

I'm a big fan of non-single-sourced history. In this case we don't have any of that.

You can get away with single sources if you can find archeology to support it. In this instance that has been failing as well. In my mind the archeology at Jericho is most telling.

 

[Rincewind]

Sure there would be a lot of bodies in the desert—but they were not in one place for 38 years as was stated—they were in some 42 different place—so the bodies were scattered in different places.

The mortality rate of infants would have been far less than compared with your figures, as the diet of manna was a balance healthy nutritional substance prepared by God, without the addition of meat.

Moses lived for 120 years and died as is said in good health---the one thing that puzzles me, is where did the food come from for the animals.

Why are you puzzled, Paul?

After all, it's only a story, not meant to be taken as true...

 

[HansMustermann]

You can get away with single sources if you can find archeology to support it. In this instance that has been failing as well. In my mind the archeology at Jericho is most telling.

1. Finding archaeological support essentially makes it two source. The second source are those archaeological finds.

2. Considering that the archaeology at Jericho shows it was just a ruin at the supposed time of Joshua, and had been so for a LOOOONG time, I'm not sure what your point is. That the OT account is just a piece of propaganda fiction?

 

[MG1962]

So then it could be said that nothing was discovered because people did not know where to look?

The problem Paul is not that they can not find the sites. They can not find any site. A population the size of that described in the Exodus is going to leave a mark, and a pretty big one in a variety of places.

You can eliminate a lot of area simply because of basic needs of humans. They would not have camped on top of mountains, but probably needed to be camping near water sources and possibly even trade routes.

 

[MG1962]

That the OT account is just a piece of propaganda fiction?

If you climbed of your high horse for a momment and read post #8 you would already have your answer to that question

 

[HansMustermann]

Yes, I have read it, but then please explain why we should take ANYTHING from that book seriously ever, if cautionary fiction tales by humans for humans are mixed in and undistinguishable from anything that might have been divinely inspired? Why should I take it any more seriously than the Brothers Grimm tales or, yes, 1984, if it's just humans writing cautionary tales?

Plus, what was the point in protesting its being filed under fantasy, if you do say it's fictional cautionary fantasy?

 

[Paul Bethke]

Do you know what "insinuating" means? (In English, not in bethekese.)
You do not speak of the desert as one who has spent time in one.

Thanks for another English lesson—I have spent time in the desert so you now say I lied— I worked in Namibia constructing overhead lines in the desert—we had to learn a lot of things regarding the character of the desert.

Since you are coy about your opinion of when, in fact, the Rape of Egypt and the Despoiling of Canaan are supposed to have happened, I decline to put words in your mouth.
However, the Sinai peninsula, and the "Holy Land", have been extensively explored and excavated, primarily by those hoping to find evidence to support their beliefs.
By the early 19^th Century CE, bible-hunting archaeology was a going concern.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus
Conservatively, the explorations were begun no less than 3500 years after the "event".
You're shaking the dog at the stick, again.
None of the proposed routes have yielded any evidence of a multi-million-strong throng. None of the places identified as "Kadesh- Barnea" demonstrate the presence of any such. None of the sites of "conquest" give any evidence of the arrival of the "conquerors".
Do you know enough about archaeology for an answer to these questions to make sense to you?No "materials" of any kind--charcoal, orts, middens, bones, dung-heaps, graves, artifacts--what have you, have been found to indicate the presence, or passage, of 2 million + people (to say nothing of their stock).
The area has been investigated with everything from foot-on-the-ground exploration/excavation to multi-spectrum satellite imagery.
You do realize that the responsibility, the onus probandi, lies with you, and those making the claim, to "prove" that the "exodus" did, in fact, take place; not the other way around. Right?

Having found nothing means there was nothing to find after 3500 years.
I may not be able to prove that the Exodus did take place—but I can and will prove that the Scriptures that recorded the events are true.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Sure there would be a lot of bodies in the desert—but they were not in one place for 38 years as was stated—they were in some 42 different place—so the bodies were scattered in different places.

It was, in fact, a source you provided that claimed that the horde camped out in Kadesh for 38 years...

The mortality rate of infants would have been far less than compared with your figures, as the diet of manna was a balance healthy nutritional substance prepared by God, without the addition of meat.

I suppose Exodus 16 is another one of the bits you haven't read.

Moses lived for 120 years and died as is said in good health---the one thing that puzzles me, is where did the food come from for the animals.

You are still depending upon circular reasoning. What evidence of Moses' longevity, or of the nutritional perfection of "what is this stuff?" (מן), have you to offer?

 

[jimbob]

The mortality rate of infants would have been far less than compared with your figures, as the diet of manna was a balance healthy nutritional substance prepared by God, without the addition of meat.

I thought that they spent 40-years in the wilderness so that none of the original Israelites stepped into the promised land?

Which suggests that however perfect a diet, even those who were babes in arms at the time of leaving Egypt had died within 40-years. So a pretty high death rate compared to any modern country.

 

[Paul Bethke]

The problem Paul is not that they can not find the sites. They can not find any site. A population the size of that described in the Exodus is going to leave a mark, and a pretty big one in a variety of places.

You can eliminate a lot of area simply because of basic needs of humans. They would not have camped on top of mountains, but probably needed to be camping near water sources and possibly even trade routes.

Yes, but 3500 years had passed before they began to search for evidence—so a lot of things can happen in a desert after 3500 years.

Maha Kumbh Mela is one of the most extraordinary events on the planet, with up to 70 million pilgrims gathering together for spiritual reasons. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-biggest-human-gathering-in-the-world-maha-kumbh-mela-2013

This may or not be of interest—it certainly exceeds 2 or 3 million people.

 

[I Ratant]

And this is why engineering degrees are not much value in discussions about astronomy.

.
YGBSM!
And you are.
Pathetic!

 

[Rincewind]

Thanks for another English lesson—I have spent time in the desert so you now say I lied— I worked in Namibia constructing overhead lines in the desert—we had to learn a lot of things regarding the character of the desert.


Having found nothing means there was nothing to find after 3500 years.
I may not be able to prove that the Exodus did take place—but I can and will prove that the Scriptures that recorded the events are true.

Paul,

Please read post 150... according to your reference they were in Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years - please note - YOUR reference.

As I wrote in my first post, this site has been extensively excavated and nothing was found.

38 years of residence by a huge number of people, and not even broken pot sherds?

I realise that you need this whole story to be true, but going to ridiculous lengths doesn't do anything for your credibility.

Come out from under the bridge...

 

[I Ratant]

Then please do point out as an astronomer how would a star pinpoint the location of a house even with modern instruments, given the rotation of the earth. Even months after the original burst.

No, really, please do explain, if you've got anything. That's gotta be good.

Sorry, but anyone can spew such useless answers, and unsurprisingly most apologists do. If you want it to be of any use, please explain how. I'm sick and tired of the kind of half-assed apologetics that just postulate that some meaning or explanation exists, but then don't actually have one.

.
I did suggest a very simple experiment that anyone could try.
The "super moon" tonight is another and even closer object to see the manger it is hovering over when followed.

 

[Correa Neto]

C'mon, you are forgetting who these ppl were! Have you read TEH BIBEL? Who they were? They were Joos! TEH JOOS!
Joos are at the heart of conspiracies! That was just one of them, hiding all evidence of their passage to steer people away from THE LORD GOD JESUS!

 

[Slowvehicle]

Thanks for another English lesson—I have spent time in the desert so you now say I lied— I worked in Namibia constructing overhead lines in the desert—we had to learn a lot of things regarding the character of the desert.

Pablo, you're doing it again. I did not say you had lied about the desert. You can go back and read. You really ought not to make accusations you cannot support.

What I said was that you do not speak as one who has spent time in a desert. You seem ignorant of the fragility of the desert ecosystem, and of the persistence of artifacts and remains.

I am unfamiliar with the Namib (my experience has all been in the Americas). How were you supplied and provided?

Having found nothing means there was nothing to find after 3500 years.

I agree that there was, and is, nothing to find. 3500 years is not the issue--older evidence than that (and of smaller, and more transient, peoples) is found throughout the Southwest.

You are ignoring the point. It is not that there is inconclusive evidence, or incomplete evidence, or rare evidence, of the "exodus"; it is that there is none. None. There is no source that supports the legend that more than 2 million people, with their stock, inhabited the Sinai peninsula after raping Egypt (much less "conquered" the "holy land") other than your comic book--the one with the talking snakes and donkeys; and 900-year-old men.

It's that circular reasoning thing, again. Still.

I may not be able to prove that the Exodus did take place—but I can and will prove that the Scriptures that recorded the events are true.

Best get to it, then.

 

[Slowvehicle]

.
I did suggest a very simple experiment that anyone could try.
The "super moon" tonight is another and even closer object to see the manger it is hovering over when followed.

And there's this:

https://what-if.xkcd.com/25/

 

[MG1962]

Plus, what was the point in protesting its being filed under fantasy, if you do say it's fictional cautionary fantasy?

Sure as long as you are prepared to put the writings of Immanuel Kant in the fantasy section of your bookshop

 

[Paul Bethke]

I thought that they spent 40-years in the wilderness so that none of the original Israelites stepped into the promised land?

Which suggests that however perfect a diet, even those who were babes in arms at the time of leaving Egypt had died within 40-years. So a pretty high death rate compared to any modern country.

The 600 000 men that would have died as a result of their rejection were 20 years and older---the babes were two years and older—so they constituted the generation that would go into the land.

So the babes would have been 40 plus when they entered the land—the life span would not have been 40!

Caleb and Joshua were in their 80’s—so if the 600 000 had done what they were commanded they would also have reached the same age as Joshua and Caleb.

►Num_26:65 For the LORD had told those Israelites they would surely die in the desert, and not one of them was left except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
►Deu 2:16 Now when the last of these fighting men among the people had died,
►Jos 14:10-11 "Now then, just as the LORD promised, he has kept me alive for forty-five years since the time he said this to Moses, while Israel moved about in the desert. So here I am today, eighty-five years old! I am still as strong today as the day Moses sent me out; I'm just as vigorous to go out to battle now as I was then.
►Jdg_2:8 Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died at the age of a hundred and ten.

So excuse me for using the Scriptures to demonstrate a point.