The Exodus Myth

Paul Bethke said:
My book says they travelled around—stopping at some 42 different places during those 38 years—not in one place for 38 years! <snip huge list>
Click to expand...
Numbers is full of long lists like the one you give. Hence the name of the book. My favourite bit is Num 5:14-31 which tells men what to do when visited by the "spirit of jealousy" and suspect that their wife may be unfaithful.
 
Paul Bethke said:
My book says they travelled around—stopping at some 42 different places during those 38 years—not in one place for 38 years!

►Num 33:1 Here are the stages in the journey of the Israelites when they came out of Egypt by divisions under the leadership of Moses and Aaron.
Num 33:2 At the LORD's command Moses recorded the stages in their journey. This is their journey by stages:
Num 33:3 The Israelites set out from Rameses on the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover. They marched out boldly in full view of all the Egyptians,
Num 33:4 who were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had struck down among them; for the LORD had brought judgment on their gods.
Num 33:5 The Israelites left Rameses and camped at Succoth.
Num 33:6 They left Succoth and camped at Etham, on the edge of the desert.
Num 33:7 They left Etham, turned back to Pi Hahiroth, to the east of Baal Zephon, and camped near Migdol.
Num 33:8 They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, and when they had traveled for three days in the Desert of Etham, they camped at Marah.
Num 33:9 They left Marah and went to Elim, where there were twelve springs and seventy palm trees, and they camped there.
Num 33:10 They left Elim and camped by the Red Sea.
Num 33:11 They left the Red Sea and camped in the Desert of Sin.
Num 33:12 They left the Desert of Sin and camped at Dophkah.
Num 33:13 They left Dophkah and camped at Alush.
Num 33:14 They left Alush and camped at Rephidim, where there was no water for the people to drink.
Num 33:15 They left Rephidim and camped in the Desert of Sinai.
Num 33:16 They left the Desert of Sinai and camped at Kibroth Hattaavah.
Num 33:17 They left Kibroth Hattaavah and camped at Hazeroth.
Num 33:18 They left Hazeroth and camped at Rithmah.
Num 33:19 They left Rithmah and camped at Rimmon Perez.
Num 33:20 They left Rimmon Perez and camped at Libnah.
Num 33:21 They left Libnah and camped at Rissah.
Num 33:22 They left Rissah and camped at Kehelathah.
Num 33:23 They left Kehelathah and camped at Mount Shepher.
Num 33:24 They left Mount Shepher and camped at Haradah.
Num 33:25 They left Haradah and camped at Makheloth.
Num 33:26 They left Makheloth and camped at Tahath.
Num 33:27 They left Tahath and camped at Terah.
Num 33:28 They left Terah and camped at Mithcah.
Num 33:29 They left Mithcah and camped at Hashmonah.
Num 33:30 They left Hashmonah and camped at Moseroth.
Num 33:31 They left Moseroth and camped at Bene Jaakan.
Num 33:32 They left Bene Jaakan and camped at Hor Haggidgad.
Num 33:33 They left Hor Haggidgad and camped at Jotbathah.
Num 33:34 They left Jotbathah and camped at Abronah.
Num 33:35 They left Abronah and camped at Ezion Geber.
Num 33:36 They left Ezion Geber and camped at Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.
Num 33:37 They left Kadesh and camped at Mount Hor, on the border of Edom.
Num 33:38 At the LORD's command Aaron the priest went up Mount Hor, where he died on the first day of the fifth month of the fortieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt.
Num 33:39 Aaron was a hundred and twenty-three years old when he died on Mount Hor.
Num 33:40 The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev of Canaan, heard that the Israelites were coming.
Num 33:41 They left Mount Hor and camped at Zalmonah.
Num 33:42 They left Zalmonah and camped at Punon.
Num 33:43 They left Punon and camped at Oboth.
Num 33:44 They left Oboth and camped at Iye Abarim, on the border of Moab.
Num 33:45 They left Iyim and camped at Dibon Gad.
Num 33:46 They left Dibon Gad and camped at Almon Diblathaim.
Num 33:47 They left Almon Diblathaim and camped in the mountains of Abarim, near Nebo.
Num 33:48 They left the mountains of Abarim and camped on the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho.
Num 33:49 There on the plains of Moab they camped along the Jordan from Beth Jeshimoth to Abel Shittim.
Num 33:50 On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the LORD said to Moses,
Num 33:51 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you cross the Jordan into Canaan,
Num 33:52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places.

I would be interested to be able to measure the entire distance they travelled—maybe someone has done this –will look into it.
Click to expand...
In addition to Lemus's excellent point about the logistics, if there was a stable population with 600,000 men in those days, there would be closer to 5-million people including about 2.5-million under the age of 5, which is larger than the estimated population of Britain at the time of the Roman conquest - an island that was important for its grain production as well as its mineral wealth.

How well would 5-million nomads survive 40-years in the Sinai region today?

It would have left a huge amount of evidence on the land. Evidence that the bible doesn't talk about having been removed.

It is just silly.
 
Craig B said:
Numbers is full of long lists like the one you give. Hence the name of the book. My favourite bit is Num 5:14-31 which tells men what to do when visited by the "spirit of jealousy" and suspect that their wife may be unfaithful.
Click to expand...

ETA since I wrote that I have read your
The forty years was necessary to weed out their superstations they had while in Egypt—hence the calf.
So it appears that a new generation would have to replace the old one that came out of Egypt.
YHWH seems to work in a natural way as to teach people—no purpose in taking away the learning curve.
Click to expand...
So here is what God taught people, while keeping their shoes in good condition by magic. (Did children's clothes and shoes increase in size to keep pace with the children's growth?)
... 14 and the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled: ... 17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water: ... 21 then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; 22 and this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ... 27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. 28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
Click to expand...
The superstitions of Egypt--nay, the teachings of the Golden Calf--would be a million times more wholesome than that filth.
 
Last edited:
jimbob said:
In addition to Lemus's excellent point about the logistics, if there was a stable population with 600,000 men in those days, there would be closer to 5-million people including about 2.5-million under the age of 5, which is larger than the estimated population of Britain at the time of the Roman conquest - an island that was important for its grain production as well as its mineral wealth.
How well would 5-million nomads survive 40-years in the Sinai region today?
It would have left a huge amount of evidence on the land. Evidence that the bible doesn't talk about having been removed.
It is just silly.
Click to expand...

How is it that now there are 5 million people?
The Hebrew movement was well organised, there would not be anything left behind, except a lot of faeces that would have dried up.

But then again the law states to bury the waste, so it would have decomposed, leaving some fertiliser.
 
HansMustermann said:
Sorry, but anyone can spew such useless answers, and unsurprisingly most apologists do. If you want it to be of any use, please explain how. I'm sick and tired of the kind of half-assed apologetics that just postulate that some meaning or explanation exists, but then don't actually have one.
Click to expand...

So why invite me to discuss the point if you have already decided what I am going to say is worthless. Not the sort of position I would expect from a skeptic.
 
Last edited:
Paul Bethke said:
How is it that now there are 5 million people?
The Hebrew movement was well organised, there would not be anything left behind, except a lot of faeces that would have dried up.

But then again the law states to bury the waste, so it would have decomposed, leaving some fertiliser.
Click to expand...
What does the Law say is to be done with the bodies of the dead? We are told, by yourself no less, that god left the Israelites there until the whole generation died off. They were buried too, if so. More than a million burials?

And carbon from campfires?

They ate none of their sheep and goats, I take it, or they also ate the skulls and hooves and horns and bones, and digested all of them into faeces? And if they didn't eat their beasts, none of these creatures died and were buried?

They never broke a pot, and threw the pieces away? Or lost a spindle whorl?
 
Last edited:
Craig B said:
What does the Law say is to be done with the bodies of the dead? We are told, by yourself no less, that god left the Israelites there until the whole generation died off. They were buried too, if so. More than a million burials?

And carbon from campfires?

They ate none of their sheep and goats, I take it, or they also ate the skulls and hooves and horns and bones, and digested all of them into faeces? And if they didn't eat their beasts, none of these creatures died and were buried?

They never broke a pot, and threw the pieces away? Or lost a spindle whorl?
Click to expand...
You make a very good point—to which I can only speculate.
Let me say, if they buried the dead at 6 foot, would they still be there, and who has dug up the places where the Hebrews travelled?

The desert is a mystical place, seemingly strange things happen there with the wind and heat—the moving sands, the creatures that wander there.
As I said I lived in Namibian desert area for some years—a very strange place—ever changing—ever hostile.

►Deu_8:15 He led you through the vast and dreadful desert, that thirsty and waterless land, with its venomous snakes and scorpions. He brought you water out of hard rock.
 
Paul Bethke said:
How is it that now there are 5 million people?
The Hebrew movement was well organised, there would not be anything left behind, except a lot of faeces that would have dried up.

But then again the law states to bury the waste, so it would have decomposed, leaving some fertiliser.
Click to expand...

...conveniently ignoring the problems of orts and detritus; not the least of which would have been the (very large) number of corpses.

I am not familiar with South Africa. Are there deserts there? Have you any experience with how long it takes for things to "decompose" in a desert?
 
Paul Bethke said:
Well I would not know where to begin—but there may be some boffins out there who could give a reasonable answer—any way let me depart from this thread—just in case the Slowvehicle starts his antics again!

I found something that is quite interesting—thanks Google---
►http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-travel-times-distances-days.htm
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

Thank you for that fascinating attachment - I will read it more thoroughly when I have the time.

However, it might have been more useful for your cause if you'd read it before posting it.

Here's a quote copied from the attachment:


"Then the sons of Israel, the whole congregation, came to the wilderness of Zin in the first month; and the people stayed at Kadesh." Numbers 20:1

They arrived at Kadesh Barnea in the first of the month of the third year or exactly 24 months after leaving Egypt.

They celebrated their second Passover at Sinai, then leave almost immediately afterwards for Kadesh. They arrived at Kadesh and immediately celebrated their third Passover.

They spend 38 continuous years at Kadesh Barnea (they do not leave and come back), then depart for the Jordan in the 40th year.

/end quote - my emphasis added....

How many years did they spend in Kadesh-Barnea?
 
Last edited:
Paul Bethke said:
You make a very good point—to which I can only speculate.
Let me say, if they buried the dead at 6 foot, would they still be there, and who has dug up the places where the Hebrews travelled?
Click to expand...

Yes, there would still be physical remains.

Yes, the area has been explored.

No, not one single bit of physical evidence for the "exodus" has been reliably identified.

Not one single indication of a horde of millions, carrying Egypt's raped wealth, passing through.

Paul Bethke said:
The desert is a mystical place, seemingly strange things happen there with the wind and heat—the moving sands, the creatures that wander there.
As I said I lived in Namibian desert area for some years—a very strange place—ever changing—ever hostile.
Click to expand...

Had you spent any time at all in any desert, you could not have helped but notice how long it takes for things to "decompose".

A desert is neither "mystical" nor "hostile"; it is your own preparation (or lack of same) that makes it seem so.


Paul Bethke said:
Deu_8:15 <bad poetry snip>
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Oh, and Paul,

As Jimbob has pointed out, population calculations suggest a likely total of nearer 5 million, if you take the Bible numbers as a starting point.

So - what proportion of the two million or so that populated Egypt at the time does this represent?
 
Paul Bethke said:
How is it that now there are 5 million people?
The Hebrew movement was well organised, there would not be anything left behind, except a lot of faeces that would have dried up.

But then again the law states to bury the waste, so it would have decomposed, leaving some fertiliser.
Click to expand...

There are five-million because the 2-million estimate under estimated the infant mortality rate at the time (as the estimate was based on the poorest country today, with a life expectancy at birth nearly twice what would be reasonable for the bronze age - in fact that does tally with only needing 40-years for everyone to have died out). According to the links that I found in Egypt, 50% of children did not make it to their fifth year. If you assume the population is stable with 600,000 adult men, then you need sufficient children to produce this population

So 50% of the population was 5 or under (we know half the babies died by 5 , so for a stable population this is the case).

Say, about 30% were between 5 and 13 (whenever adulthood was) and 20% were "adults". That gives a million adults and a population of 5-million in total (rounding down from 600,000 to 500,000 men for simplicity).

There would be an awful lot of remains in the desert.
 
Last edited:
Slowvehicle said:
Yes, there would still be physical remains.
Yes, the area has been explored.
No, not one single bit of physical evidence for the "exodus" has been reliably identified.
Not one single indication of a horde of millions, carrying Egypt's raped wealth, passing through.
Had you spent any time at all in any desert, you could not have helped but notice how long it takes for things to "decompose".
A desert is neither "mystical" nor "hostile"; it is your own preparation (or lack of same) that makes it seem so.
Click to expand...

I spent a number of years in the desert—so what are you insinuating?

So how long after the Exodus was the exploration done?
How was the exact route determined?
What sort of materials were being investigated?
What sort of technology was being used?
It still does not prove the Exodus did not take place, because nothing was found.
 
jimbob said:
There are five-million because the 2-million estimate under estimated the infant mortality rate at the time (as the estimate was based on the poorest country today, with a life expectancy at birth nearly twice what would be reasonable for the bronze age - in fact that does tally with only needing 40-years for everyone to have died out). According to the links that I found in Egypt, 50% of children did not make it to their fifth year. If you assume the population is stable with 600,000 adult men, then you need sufficient children to produce this population
So 50% of the population was 5 or under (we know half the babies died by 5 , so for a stable population this is the case).
Say, about 30% were between 5 and 13 (whenever adulthood was) and 20% were "adults". That gives a million adults and a population of 5-million in total (rounding down from 600,000 to 500,000 men for simplicity).
There would be an awful lot of remains in the desert.
Click to expand...

Sure there would be a lot of bodies in the desert—but they were not in one place for 38 years as was stated—they were in some 42 different place—so the bodies were scattered in different places.

The mortality rate of infants would have been far less than compared with your figures, as the diet of manna was a balance healthy nutritional substance prepared by God, without the addition of meat.

Moses lived for 120 years and died as is said in good health---the one thing that puzzles me, is where did the food come from for the animals.
 
Paul Bethke said:
Sure there would be a lot of bodies in the desert—but they were not in one place for 38 years as was stated—they were in some 42 different place—so the bodies were scattered in different places.
Click to expand...


Any chance of a reference to just one of the sites where evidence of these bodies has been found?



Paul Bethke said:
The mortality rate of infants would have been far less than compared with your figures, as the diet of manna was a balance healthy nutritional substance prepared by God, without the addition of meat.
Click to expand...


This would be the same god that couldn't tell a bat from a bird, would it?



Paul Bethke said:
Moses lived for 120 years and died as is said in good health---the one thing that puzzles me, is where did the food come from for the animals.
Click to expand...


Well, luckily they came across the remains of this ark . . .
 
MG1962 said:
So why invite me to discuss the point if you have already decided what I am going to say is worthless. Not the sort of position I would expect from a skeptic.
Click to expand...

Because I'm calling you out on your usual BS apologetics, to be blunt.

And I notice that once again you don't actually deliver, you just do more BS dodging the claim YOU have made.

I don't care if you think I'm a proper skeptic or not, just I don't care for another million dishonest BS-ers backing into the same ´you're not a real skeptic' BS when challenged to support their claim. You made the claim that knowing astronomy somehow makes a differrence. But see, that claim is true or false regardless of whether I'm a real skeptic or not, or whether you think I am one or not. That silly brow-beating might work with your church group, but for logic or scepticism it's fully irrelevant what you think of me. The only thing that matters is whether you can support the claim or not. period.

TL;DR version: Support that claim or get lost. Either you can actually support it, or you can't. It's that simple.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom