The etchics of keeping cats

[Aepervius]

If you let the cat outside when it is young, it will want to go outside. There are two solutions : 1) never let it go outside. Works relatively OKish, even after a while they don't even try to go outside on their own. 2) use a leash from start. This one is hit and miss.

Keep in mind that a cat as pet live very long, compared to cat in the wild. If I recall correctely, a feral cat has a live expectancy of ~4 years , whereas compeltely indoor pet cat live 10+ years (except when you are called creme puff : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creme_Puff_(cat) ). So 6 years is not that bad , but you would be better off with a good barrier to the road , or keep the cat indoor.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

*finds link and looks up the next paragraph*

Stray and feral cats live significantly less. On average, a stray cat lives 5 years if he is in a community of cats and 2 to 3 years if he lives by himself. This is due to unbalanced nutrition and lack of veterinary treatment and vaccinations. In addition, feral cats may get killed while fighting other wild animals.​

So... by "outdoor cats", you were referring to stray and feral cats which aren't given food, shelter or medical care? That's not what most people mean by "outdoor cats".

Most people don't mean anything by "outdoor cat" or "indoor cat".

 

[Akri]

They may not understand a particular danger, but they know the outside is a dangerous place.

And your evidence for this is...? Sure, a cat that has encountered danger outside will probably learn that outside is dangerous, assuming they survive the encounter. Otherwise, though? Cats aren't born with an innate knowledge of cars, hawks, poisonous foods, diseases, or even just mild risks like skunks.

And even if a cat is aware of some outside risks, they may not actually make the connection between these risks and going outside. Their kitty brains may simply file those dangers away as "something that can happen", not "something that can happen if I go outside".

If you want to be a good cat owner, step one is to stop anthropomorphizing and actually try to understand cats as they are.

 

[GlennB]

Most people don't mean anything by "outdoor cat" or "indoor cat".

Eh? It's totally clear that "indoor cat" is one that's always indoors, while "outdoor cat" is one that spends variable amounts of time outdoors.

 

[GlennB]

Meanwhile, what's happening in this thread is a great example of a discussion of :

Utilitarianism^WP is a theory in normative ethics holding that the proper course of action is the one that maximizes utility, specifically defined as maximizing happiness and reducing suffering.

in which we're calculating, sort of, in our very different ways, the value of cat activities, risks, life-span etc.

Some (the racing drivers, deep-sea diver types perhaps [nutcases, imo, in case you think I'm being judgemental about 'quiet' people a little later]) place value on excitement even at the risk of injuries and maybe a shorter life.

Others (the gardeners and water-colour artists perhaps) place value on tranquility and safety.

Strictly personally, I get a thrill when I'm pottering in the back garden and Bouboulina appears at my heels, scuttles up a tree and looks down at me as if to say "ner-ner, you can't do that! Think I might climb even higher, 'cos I know it makes you nervous". And I suspect she enjoys it too, but really I have no clue what's happening in her head. It certainly looks like fun for the sake of it.

Do the swallows enjoy swooping around the way they do?

We have no idea, but if I had to bet I'd say Boubou's attitude might be "Hmm, I'm well fed, loved, treated for medical stuff, have great fun, face minor risks outside ... so I'll take that deal rather than stay indoors all day just for the added safety".

But in making that bet it's me speaking, not her.

 

[rustypouch]

Yeah, just like your domestic women and children, right?

Why would you keep domestic animals, unless you got some sort of pleasure or joy from them?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

If you decide to keep a cat totally indoors, be very careful with their diet and find ways to encourage exercise. Indoors cats are more likely to suffer problems with overweight/obesity than outdoors cats. If I lived in an area where it wasn't safe to let a cat roam (less of a problem in the UK as we don't have the predators), I would go for one of those cat runs linked to in the thread for those reasons.

This is all completely hypothetical for me, as I am allergic to the little buggers.

 

[fleabeetle]

I also adopted a stray that was living in my backyard... the local laws say that I'm supposed to keep her inside at night.

If I deduce correctly, you're in Australia. Do I guess rightly that this law is aimed at protecting the local wildlife, rather than the cats?

I do gather that this is a troublous issue in Australia and NZ, and assorted other island areas where the original fauna has bad trouble coping with introduced predatory mammals. If I lived in those parts of the world, I think I'd feel considerably "torn" re priorities on this one.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Eh? It's totally clear that "indoor cat" is one that's always indoors, while "outdoor cat" is one that spends variable amounts of time outdoors.

You might think so, but people give different answers on the matter all the time. Even if everyone used that definition, it would still make the "outdoor" moniker too broad to be very useful. And there is a reason why "indoor-only" and "indoor-outdoor" have cropped up as terms. And then there is the whole "outdoor" vs "stray" vs "feral" distinction. This page has a "nice" chart of it all. But again, some people try to stick all those into indoor or outdoor categories and it just confuses things.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

The 2-3 year average lifespan for post-kitten feral cats looks a bit like one of those "sticky numbers" that enters popular circulation and is hard to budge.

Or it could just be a fact .

Reading the (anecdotal, it's true) accounts in several "feral cat project" websites they either quote 2-3 years with no further comment or take that number and dispute it pretty enthusiastically. What I can't find is such a project that suggests 2-3 years based on what they observe.

There is no standard for feral cat colonies, so I think it is reasonable that the more involved ones would improve the lifespan. Especially given that they are spay/neutering, which we know increases life expectancy.

 

[Vortigern99]

This is incorrect, and dangerous, advice. Cats are NOT "perfectly able to make choices for themselves". Some might be, but others (like my brother's cat) will happily swallow chunks of rubber that then have to be surgically removed. Not all cats know which foods are poison to them, or understand that roads can have fast-moving death-machines come out of nowhere, or that winged killers can drop from above to devour them.

You're anthropomorphizing, and that can have deadly consequences.

Yes, this. Exactly this.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

We have no idea, but if I had to bet I'd say Boubou's attitude might be "Hmm, I'm well fed, loved, treated for medical stuff, have great fun, face minor risks outside ... so I'll take that deal rather than stay indoors all day just for the added safety".

But in making that bet it's me speaking, not her.

My dog would say he prefer to eat chocolate and take the risk that it would kill him. Luckily he cannot talk and is not in control of the chocolate .

There is a notion that since animals lack the proper awareness of future life (many definitions we could give there), we can only analyse their dilemmas in the present moment. I disagree with that notion.

Anyway, I think a way where your scenario falls short is that the "added safety" sounds like you are talking about wearing kneepads, and not a substantial decrease in life expectancy.

Of course, this all is dealing with unknowns based on probabilities (will they get hit by a car, will they get fat and bored, will they die of cancer in two months anyway), which I would argue Utilitarianism is incapable of properly handling. But I know people will come around with the proper hedonistic calculus if I wait for it.

 

[Piggy]

Why would you keep domestic animals, unless you got some sort of pleasure or joy from them?

Well, that wan't my point, but I actually got cats because my house was infested with mice. Of course, I came to love them dearly.

ETA: The cats, not the mice.

 

[Brian-M]

If I deduce correctly, you're in Australia. Do I guess rightly that this law is aimed at protecting the local wildlife, rather than the cats?

Yes. That's why I have my location set to "Downunder".

The law is probably there to protect the local wildlife, although I'm not sure how effective it is.

 

[PiscesMercury]

I just got mine because I felt sorry for it. I found him sitting next to a takeaway shop when he was a kitten, meowing for food. I knew he would probably die in the summer heat, temperatures easily climb to 118 degrees where I live. He is very spoilt, always gets the best of everything. He throws tantrums if he doesn't get his favorite foods, starts pushing fragile objects off tables knowing I will come running. He hunts a lot and crosses a fairly busy road frequently, but is used to cars. He is very vocal, serves as the door bell basically as he starts to meow when people knock at the front door. He meows when a phone keeps on ringing or an alarm clock keeps going off. He also meows when I talk to him.

 

[alfaniner]

Re Title, I want to know why you etch cats?

Usually it's my cats that do the etching. On the furniture.

 

[Piggy]

Usually it's my cats that do the etching. On the furniture.

Etching or retching?

 

[quadraginta]

You are violating the cats natural cat rights by keeping it locked inside like a prisoner when it clearly wants to go outside. It would be no different from forcibly keeping women locked inside your basement for "companionship".

Yes. It would be different. In fact, it is different.

For starters, human beings =/= cats.

We can work from there if you need more help.

 

[rustypouch]

If I deduce correctly, you're in Australia. Do I guess rightly that this law is aimed at protecting the local wildlife, rather than the cats?

I do gather that this is a troublous issue in Australia and NZ, and assorted other island areas where the original fauna has bad trouble coping with introduced predatory mammals. If I lived in those parts of the world, I think I'd feel considerably "torn" re priorities on this one.

I don't know if I would feel torn.

It's the amusement of one domestic animal, vs. the lives of dozens, if not hundreds of wild animals.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, that is part of my dilemma. If we let out cat out, birds and rodents die.

IXP

Yeah. Sorry to break this to you, but animals tend to kill each other.

If you want a pet, buy one. Then take care of it and take your responsibility. There's not much "ethics" beyond that.