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The Empty Tomb

Even the elite knew this happened why would they have gone looking for more proof they already knew what the military had to say about it in the records?

One of the things you’ll say now is that a placard couldn’t last that long, right?
The Report of Pilate the Procurator Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ. Sent to the August Cæsar in Rome.

Here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0809.htm

And this PDF:
Another version:


Anyone can turn a positive into a negative, or vice versa?
Go with the evidence. The one thing you are doing is denying the evidence at hand and making up your own scenarios. The simplest answer has the evidence and that is, there is a high probability that this really happened as written. A government wouldn’t waste it’s time or resources if there wasn’t a report by the military for instance that these things occurred, let alone send the one of the highest in said government, (Empress Helena ) into a hostile environment on an expedition, you know that, right?
If anyone wasn’t going to lie for Christ it would be Rome…It seems your just wishing that the sepulcher couldn’t survive a burial of rubble, basically a cave in rock? You say:

Tell me that is a joke please? So you go with your assumption instead of the evidence at hand.

From the link:

All that night therefore, my lord, O king, the light ceased not. And many of the Jews died, and were engulphed and swallowed up in the chasms in that night, so that not even their bodies appeared. Those, I say, of the Jews suffered that had spoken against Jesus. And one synagogue was left in Jerusalem, since all those synagogues that had been against Jesus were engulphed.


Tell me Jesus, meek and mild
Where were you when the night went wild?
 
Even the elite knew this happened why would they have gone looking for more proof they already knew what the military had to say about it in the records?

Again, Jerusalem was razed to the ground by order from Vespasian. It was rebuilt. It was razed again in 136, following the Bar Kochba revolt. A new city Aelia Capitolina, was built on the ruins. The likelihood of the Empress Helena finding the actual sepulcher, the cross (which would probably have been destroyed by then in any case) and the titulus (which may be a complete fabrication) are nil. As to any Roman records that might have survived, feel free to produce them. Remember that, in the eyes of the Roman officials, Jesus was just one more local trouble maker, like Judas the Galilean and Theudas.

One of the things you’ll say now is that a placard couldn’t last that long, right?
The Report of Pilate the Procurator Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ. Sent to the August Cæsar in Rome.

Here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0809.htm

And this PDF:
Another version:

This supposed report by Pilate is, along with the Acta Pilati (Acts of Pilate), a Christian fabrication. As we go from the earlier gospels to the later, Pilate is increasingly vindicated and even sanctified, just as the Jews are increasingly demonized. Ths is particularly true of the Gospel of John.

As to the Titulus, all Mark says about it is (Mk. 15:26):

And the inscription of the charge against him read, "The King of the Jews."

Matthew elaborates a bit on this (Mt. 27:37):

And over his head they put the charge against him, which read "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."

Luke simplifies this description somewhat (Lk. 23:38):

There was also an inscription over him, "This is the King of the Jews."

In all three of these descriptions, the context of the soldiers mocking Jesus is such that it's reasonable and plausible to assume that these same soldiers had written the Titulus as further mockery. It's only in John that Pilate personally writes the Titulus in a much more elaborate passage (Jn. 19:19 - 22):

Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross; it read, "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" Many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin and in Greek. The chief priests of the Jews the said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'This man said, I am the King of the Jews.' " Pilate answered, "I have written what I have written."

This account is highly implausible. It's unlikely Pilate would have bothered writing the Titulus. Also, the author of the Gospel of John, writing in Greek, seems to have thought that the Jews of that day were speaking and writing in Hebrew; when, in fact, they were reading and writing in Aramaic. So, to believe John's account, we have to accept that not only that Pilate would bother to personally write the Titulus; but that he not only knew Latin and Greek, which is reasonably plausible, but that he knew and could write Hebrew - by that time only a liturgical language - as well.

The depiction of Pilate in the gospels, particularly John, is at varience with what we actually know of him. Josephus portrays him as quite brutal, and he seems to have been removed from office by the Romans for his excessive brutality. Remember that he was a protoge of Lucius Aelius Sejenus, the captain of the Praetorian Guard who was de facto ruler of the Roman Empire while Tiberius secluded himself on the isle of Capri. Sejenus was overthrown and executed when his plot to assassinate Tiberius and make himself emperor in name as well, was discovered. Those who remember the PBS series I, Claudius will recall that Patrick Stewart played Sejenus, portraying him with a certain genial malice.

Anyone can turn a positive into a negative, or vice versa?
Go with the evidence. The one thing you are doing is denying the evidence at hand and making up your own scenarios. The simplest answer has the evidence and that is, there is a high probability that this really happened as written.


The only evidence we have, outside the gospels, is a statement by Tacitus, in The Annals of Imperial Rome, written early in the second century, that Pilate crucified Christ for sedition.

A government wouldn’t waste it’s time or resources if there wasn’t a report by the military for instance that these things occurred, let alone send the one of the highest in said government, (Empress Helena ) into a hostile environment on an expedition, you know that, right?


In a word, no, I don't know anything of the kind. Helena's pilgrimage was made after her son Constantine had made Christianity, de facto, the state religion (IIRC Theodosius made it official). The city of Aelia Capitolina was then being reconfigured not only back to Jerusalem, but to a specifically Christian version of Jerusalem. The "reports" Helena was using as a guide were Christian writings.

If anyone wasn’t going to lie for Christ it would be Rome…It seems your just wishing that the sepulcher couldn’t survive a burial of rubble, basically a cave in rock? You say:
Tell me that is a joke please? So you go with your assumption instead of the evidence at hand. [/I]

Perhaps I overgeneralized. So, let's look at Jewish burial practices in the first century, the effects of repeated sackings and the antiquities market:

In the first century, bodies were laid out on a rock platform inside the family sepulcher in a funeral shroud, and allowed to decay and desiccate. Months later, the relatives of the deceased opened the sepulcher, collected and cleaned the disjointed bones and placed them in a limestone box called an ossuary. These boxes are about three feet long or less, IIRC. The relatives then placed the box in a niche and closed the sepulcher.

If the sepulcher was a free standing structure, it was likely to have been flattened in the year 70, when Vespasian razed Jerusalem. If it was dug into a hillside it would be more likely to survive. We do indeed have have some of these intact. We also have some intact ossuaries, though most of these are empty.

Another hazard faced by those sites that survived repeated razing and burial in rubble is that, once unearthed, they are vulnerable to grave robbers intent on selling materials from them on the antiquities market.

Assuming any sepulcher survives all this, given that the names given in the gospels were all common Jewish names - including Jesus (i.e. Yeshua) - it would be unlikely that we would be able to prove that the sepulcher in question was the family crypt of Joseph of Arimathea.
 
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Again, Jerusalem was razed to the ground by order from Vespasian. It was rebuilt. It was razed again in 136, following the Bar Kochba revolt. A new city Aelia Capitolina, was built on the ruins. The likelihood of the Empress Helena finding the actual sepulcher, the cross (which would probably have been destroyed by then in any case) and the titulus (which may be a complete fabrication) are nil. As to any Roman records that might have survived, feel free to produce them. Remember that, in the eyes of the Roman officials, Jesus was just one more local trouble maker, like Judas the Galilean and Theudas.



This supposed report by Pilate is, along with the Acta Pilati (Acts of Pilate), a Christian fabrication. As we go from the earlier gospels to the later, Pilate is increasingly vindicated and even sanctified, just as the Jews are increasingly demonized. Ths is particularly true of the Gospel of John.

As to the Titulus, all Mark says about it is (Mk. 15:26):

And the inscription of the charge against him read, "The King of the Jews."

Matthew elaborates a bit on this (Mt. 27:37):

And over his head they put the charge against him, which read "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."

Luke simplifies this description somewhat (Lk. 23:38):

There was also an inscription over him, "This is the King of the Jews."

In all three of these descriptions, the context of the soldiers mocking Jesus is such that it's reasonable and plausible to assume that these same soldiers had written the Titulus as further mockery. It's only in John that Pilate personally writes the Titulus in a much more elaborate passage (Jn. 19:19 - 22):

Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross; it read, "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" Many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin and in Greek. The chief priests of the Jews the said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'This man said, I am the King of the Jews.' " Pilate answered, "I have written what I have written."

This account is highly implausible. It's unlikely Pilate would have bothered writing the Titulus. Also, the author of the Gospel of John, writing in Greek, seems to have thought that the Jews of that day were speaking and writing in Hebrew; when, in fact, they were reading and writing in Aramaic. So, to believe John's account, we have to accept that not only that Pilate would bother to personally write the Titulus; but that he not only knew Latin and Greek, which is reasonably plausible, but that he knew and could write Hebrew - by that time only a liturgical language - as well.

The depiction of Pilate in the gospels, particularly John, is at varience with what we actually know of him. Josephus portrays him as quite brutal, and he seems to have been removed from office by the Romans for his excessive brutality. Remember that he was a protoge of Lucius Aelius Sejenus, the captain of the Praetorian Guard who was de facto ruler of the Roman Empire while Tiberius secluded himself on the isle of Capri. Sejenus was overthrown and executed when his plot to assassinate Tiberius and make himself emperor in name as well, was discovered. Those who remember the PBS series I, Claudius will recall that Patrick Stewart played Sejenus, portraying him with a certain genial malice.



The only evidence we have, outside the gospels, is a statement by Tacitus, in The Annals of Imperial Rome, written early in the second century, that Pilate crucified Christ for sedition.



In a word, no, I don't know anything of the kind. Helena's pilgrimage was made after her son Constantine had made Christianity, de facto, the state religion (IIRC Theodosius made it official). The city of Aelia Capitolina was then being reconfigured not only back to Jerusalem, but to a specifically Christian version of Jerusalem. The "reports" Helena was using as a guide were Christian writings.



Perhaps I overgeneralized. So, let's look at Jewish burial practices in the first century, the effects of repeated sackings and the antiquities market:

In the first century, bodies were laid out on a rock platform inside the family sepulcher in a funeral shroud, and allowed to decay and desiccate. Months later, the relatives of the deceased opened the sepulcher, collected and cleaned the disjointed bones and placed them in a limestone box called an ossuary. These boxes are about three feet long or less, IIRC. The relatives then placed the box in a niche and closed the sepulcher.

If the sepulcher was a free standing structure, it was likely to have been flattened in the year 70, when Vespasian razed Jerusalem. If it was dug into a hillside it would be more likely to survive. We do indeed have have some of these intact. We also have some intact ossuaries, though most of these are empty.

Another hazard faced by those sites that survived repeated razing and burial in rubble is that, once unearthed, they are vulnerable to grave robbers intent on selling materials from them on the antiquities market.

Assuming any sepulcher survives all this, given that the names given in the gospels were all common Jewish names - including Jesus (i.e. Yeshua) - it would be unlikely that we would be able to prove that the sepulcher in question was the family crypt of Joseph of Arimathea.

In bold agreed. In yellow, lots of speculation.
What if it is just as wrtten?
Among the approximately 2000 ossuaries that have been recovered by the Israel Antiquities Authority.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...reveal-Jesus-resting-place.html#ixzz2UDFEKCRu

Even accounting for grave robbers, they too would have found nothing to steal. There is another site I can't find right now that has the place near the solder's quarters.
 

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Wow I never realized that as soon as the Christ-ers took over they turned Jerusalem into a theme park
 
When, many years ago, I started arguing with a creationist, in a duel of letters in our local newspaper, he asserted that the empty tomb was an irrefutable argument against which non-believers had only lame rebuttals. Using Matthew's resurrection account, he said that the people of the day could only assert that someone had stolen the body of Jesus. However, they really had no way to account for the empty tomb.

Which is completely arse about face. This amounts to saying that you can't prove he didn't come back to life, therefore he must have done. No, evidence doesn't work like that.

Obviously, there's the blatant attempt to shift the burden of proof, which is very naughty, but I think this approach also resembles a bizarre effect called Perry Mason syndrome.
 
The One True Podcast has addressed this nicely:

2.1: The Empty Tomb | Irreligiosophy

Many of the points already made in this thread are in the podcast episode but it's a fun summary of the "arguments" about the relevance of the Empty tomb claim.

empty.jpg
 
In bold agreed. In yellow, lots of speculation.
What if it is just as wrtten?


Read more: http://[HILITE]www.dailymail[/HILIT...reveal-Jesus-resting-place.html#ixzz2UDFEKCRu


Even accounting for grave robbers, they too would have found nothing to steal. There is another site I can't find right now that has the place near the solder's quarters.

Regarding the link: This is old news from a less than reputable source. Not only is the Daily Mail sensationalistic, Simcha Jacobovici is no authority. He's just a film maker. That leaves James Tabor, who not only has a particularly ideosyncratic take on the gospel narratives, but also believes that Jesus was buried in that tomb and did not rise from it.

As to the tomb being the family tomb of Jesus, remember that he wasn't supposed to be from Jerusalem. He was supposed to be a poor person from Galilee. If he had any family tomb, it would be in Nazareth. Odd are that he didn't have one. In any case, the Bible says he was buried in the family tomb of Joseph of Arimathea.
 
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. . . he asserted that the empty tomb was an irrefutable argument against which non-believers had only lame rebuttals. Using Matthew's resurrection account, he said that the people of the day could only assert that someone had stolen the body of Jesus. However, they really had no way to account for the empty tomb.
That would be a good argument if there were Roman records showing the disappearance of the body from a tomb that they were guarding.
Of course, nothing of the kind exists.
I think that some people get caught up in the rhetoric of sermons and imagine that it can work outside the church.
 
Regarding the link: This is old news from a less than reputable source. Not only is the Daily Mail sensationalistic, Simcha Jacobovici is no authority. He's just a film maker. That leaves James Tabor, who not only has a particularly ideosyncratic take on the gospel narratives, but also believes that Jesus was buried in that tomb and did not rise from it.

As to the tomb being the family tomb of Jesus, remember that he wasn't supposed to be from Jerusalem. He was supposed to be a poor person from Galilee. If he had any family tomb, it would be in Nazareth. Odd are that he didn't have one. In any case, the Bible says he was buried in the family tomb of Joseph of Arimathea.

I remember the one time I mentioned Simcha you tore me a new ******* =X
 
Originally Posted by TimCallahan . ..(major snip) . . . This account is highly implausible. It's unlikely Pilate would have bothered writing the Titulus. . . . (snip) . . . .

In bold agreed. In yellow, lots of speculation. . . . (major snip) . . .

I originally overlooked this point in your post. If you agree that Pilate is unlikely to have personally written the Titulus, then you are saying the Gospel of John is false, ergo not divinely inspired. Is this, in fact, your stance?
 
Of course, Jesus could have been brought up to the top of Mount Olympus by Zeus.
 
Ain't no remains of one who never was.

Agnostic Bart Ehrman would disagree that Jesus never was. This is what Ehrman says on pages 173 - 174 of his latest book "Did Jesus Exist?".

"Jesus certainly existed. My goal in this book, however is not simply to show the evidence for Jesus's existence that has proved compelling to almost every scholar who has ever thought about it, but also to show why those few authors who have thought otherwise are therefore wrong."
 
Agnostic Bart Ehrman would disagree that Jesus never was. This is what Ehrman says on pages 173 - 174 of his latest book "Did Jesus Exist?".

"Jesus certainly existed. My goal in this book, however is not simply to show the evidence for Jesus's existence that has proved compelling to almost every scholar who has ever thought about it, but also to show why those few authors who have thought otherwise are therefore wrong."
Well Agnostic Bart doesn't believe that Jesus was dead and then woke up again.
 
Agnostic Bart Ehrman would disagree that Jesus never was. This is what Ehrman says on pages 173 - 174 of his latest book "Did Jesus Exist?".

"Jesus certainly existed. My goal in this book, however is not simply to show the evidence for Jesus's existence that has proved compelling to almost every scholar who has ever thought about it, but also to show why those few authors who have thought otherwise are therefore wrong."

DOC: it is, simply, dishonest of you to continue to continue to pretend that Ehrman believes that the Jesus that existed is the Ἰησοῦς Χριστός that walked on water, did miracles, and rose from an "empty tomb". Had you ever bothered to read the book, you would have seen the arguments Ehrman presents against the silliness of conflating the fully-human apocalyptic preacher that did, in fact (in Ehrman's opinion) exist, with the miraculous messiah-figure. You keep telling this lie, no matter how many times it is pointed out to you that it is, in fact, dishonest of you so to do.
 
Regarding the link: This is old news from a less than reputable source. Not only is the Daily Mail sensationalistic, Simcha Jacobovici is no authority. He's just a film maker. That leaves James Tabor, who not only has a particularly ideosyncratic take on the gospel narratives, but also believes that Jesus was buried in that tomb and did not rise from it.

As to the tomb being the family tomb of Jesus, remember that he wasn't supposed to be from Jerusalem. He was supposed to be a poor person from Galilee. If he had any family tomb, it would be in Nazareth. Odd are that he didn't have one. In any case, the Bible says he was buried in the family tomb of Joseph of Arimathea.

I was trying to show you that more of these tombs survive than you stated. I don't buy what they are stating either.
 

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