The Emerald Tablets of Thoth

Leviathan was just a retelling of the Greek ketos myth, the Hebrew word used to describe "monsters" in genesis 1:21 was tanniyn
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8577&t=KJV
theres a few mentions of dragons in the Old Testament
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=003922...ie=UTF-8&q=dragon&hq=inurl:/p/pt/&sa=+Search+
The leviathan stuff I did not know ... I thought I had remembered the other mentions of dragons in the OT had to do with the sea-serpent Leviathan type of monster, rather than the Revelations style of dragon. Oh well ... :(

But you probably already know the facts that would allow you to answer this, you just havent put it together
The most powerful civilisation at the time were using the dragon as a symbol for their military power between 400BCE and 400CE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon#Roman_dragons
This I did know, but I didn't want to mention the Romans because I wanted to see if you would mention something else instead, out of my curiosity :). But I wasn't trying to be manipulating, rather I was keeping my question "unspoilt" with assumptions LOL :)
 
a couple
1. The snake wasn't Satan as Satan hadn't been invented when Genesis was written
2. the snake is a symbol of immortality, it fits in with the Garden of Eden which being paradise also symbolises immortality, then you have the "immortal" god and the immortal humans in it who don't know sickness or death at that point.
Never thought it was satan (Israeli guy, not familiar with anything in the NT only the OT). When we were taught the bible, we were taught that part of the reason the giant aligators (what you refer to as sea monsters) were mentioned is that the story teller was basically pointing out stuff to the people and said:
"You see all that stuff around you, god made that. Even those wonderful creatures those guys worship - he made them too".
I thought the snake would be the same.

So I guess its not about slagging off another cultures symbols as much as it is saying if you have to put your faith in an immortal symbol, then place it in the one God rather than the short term garden or the snake who will lie to you.
Are there any other indications of the OT going against specific symbols and not deities?

The best known snake deity of the time was Ningishzida
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida
But I don't see any connection, his sacred animal was the griffin (Basmu) but he was associated with snakes because he was a god of healing
Sorry if it's a stupid question, but what do you mean by "of the time"?
Is there a specific period?
The only thing I recall is that they say Genesis was one of the last books to be written, which makes me wonder if it's not possible that at a much later date, many more snake like deities around?
Aren't there refrences to the amonites as snakes in the OT?
What about the egyptian Seth?

ref the arms/legs, remember that this is a redacted story told long after the events were supposed to take place, so the story can explain why snakes have no arms and legs without worrying about what they had before then. Its not a scientific treatise after all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking this stuff is real (never have, never will)
But still one can wonder what the author ment like with any other fictional novel.
 
I know it sounds like a crazy thing to be afraid of, but I have no way of knowing that it's not true. That doesn't mean I believe it, but at the same time, I'm afraid that one day I might suddenly have a real reason to believe it. It's hard to stop my mind from going "What if?" ...

I know you're right about how these conspiracy theorists think and "research" (if you can call it that), but it's still hard to silence that voice saying, "What if?"

You may think I'm poking fun here, but I definitely am not. Nor am I suggesting a diagnosis on such slender evidence (and I'm not qualified to either), but what you've said here could easily be the sort of thing said by someone with OCD, particularly at what's known as the "Pure O" end of the spectrum. I know. I've got it.

Ever looked into it? I'm probably completely out of order even mentioning it as a possibility. But just in case, I thought I would ....
 
ref the arms/legs, remember that this is a redacted story told long after the events were supposed to take place, so the story can explain why snakes have no arms and legs without worrying about what they had before then. Its not a scientific treatise after all.

I wonder if that is a lost passage from the bible.

"And the snake did moan and wail at God's punishment. For it had always loved having wheels."
 
That sure looks like the mythos Robert E Howard created for his Conan/ Kull characters... The arch enemy was named Thoth-Amon by the way...
Maybe his estate could go after these numbnuts for plagerism?
 
That sure looks like the mythos Robert E Howard created for his Conan/ Kull characters... The arch enemy was named Thoth-Amon by the way...
Maybe his estate could go after these numbnuts for plagerism?

Yep, Howard was mentioned several times above for that reason.
The cartoon of Conan, despite changing Toth-Amon to Wrath-Amon, was even more into it considering they added the conspiracy issue of the serpent man.
 
Never thought it was satan (Israeli guy, not familiar with anything in the NT only the OT). When we were taught the bible, we were taught that part of the reason the giant aligators (what you refer to as sea monsters) were mentioned is that the story teller was basically pointing out stuff to the people and said:
"You see all that stuff around you, god made that. Even those wonderful creatures those guys worship - he made them too".
I thought the snake would be the same.

Thats the whole point of Genesis, that is lays out that God created everything, its one of many creation myths from many different cultures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth

Are there any other indications of the OT going against specific symbols and not deities?

most of it, from the symbolism of the Tower of Babel through to the whale that swallowed Jonah, everything has symbolism attached to it. This is normal in ancient religions where the vast majority of the followers were illiterate. Symbolism can be easily understood by the masses when the writing its contained in is unreadable.

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but what do you mean by "of the time"?
Is there a specific period?
The only thing I recall is that they say Genesis was one of the last books to be written, which makes me wonder if it's not possible that at a much later date, many more snake like deities around?
Aren't there refrences to the amonites as snakes in the OT?
What about the egyptian Seth?.
I was talking about the specific time that the bible was first compiled
secular researched dates can be found here
http://www.reasoned.org/kj/dates.htm
obviously non secular sources claim it was written by moses on his way out of egypt. I think thats easily discardable


Don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking this stuff is real (never have, never will)
But still one can wonder what the author ment like with any other fictional novel.
There wasn't one author so theres no overall plan, most of the stories in the OT are simply rewritten myths from Mesopotamian texts. Some of them are barely even rewritten at all with just the names being changed.
;)
 
There wasn't one author so theres no overall plan, most of the stories in the OT are simply rewritten myths from Mesopotamian texts. Some of them are barely even rewritten at all with just the names being changed.
;)

This much I knew :) The similarities between the story of Untapishtim (spelling?) and the story of Noah was one of the things that lead me to questioning Christianity back in the day, and set me on the road to atheism. It's a bit of a blow to faith to realize that your "sacred texts" were plagarized from older documents ;)
 
Thats the whole point of Genesis, that is lays out that God created everything, its one of many creation myths from many different cultures
Of course, I was refering to an exact finger pointing towards the snake. Like in chapter one they make a note to refer to the giant alligators without mentioning any other species in the creation.

most of it, from the symbolism of the Tower of Babel through to the whale that swallowed Jonah, everything has symbolism attached to it. This is normal in ancient religions where the vast majority of the followers were illiterate. Symbolism can be easily understood by the masses when the writing its contained in is unreadable.
I thought the big fish in Jonah was about Dagon? Although now after reading a bit more about him that makes no sense what so ever since he seems more mereman than fish.

I was talking about the specific time that the bible was first compiled
secular researched dates can be found here
http://www.reasoned.org/kj/dates.htm
obviously non secular sources claim it was written by moses on his way out of egypt. I think thats easily discardable
That's what I'm refering to. 900-400 BCE.
It couldn't have been that myths were completely non-snake dervivative back then?

There wasn't one author so theres no overall plan, most of the stories in the OT are simply rewritten myths from Mesopotamian texts. Some of them are barely even rewritten at all with just the names being changed.
;)
Of course. It's kind of like modern TV shows.
Shows have different episodes written by different people which is why it is so hard to really judge a show's overall content (example the X-Files thread).
And also why I find it absurd when keep talking about certain shows being written from day 1.

And don't even get me started on shows ripping each other off :)
Sometimes complete episodes...

And that's kind of a hobby of mine to try and see who ripped off whom.
This much I knew :) The similarities between the story of Untapishtim (spelling?)
Wikipedia says Utnapishtim
 
Of course, I was refering to an exact finger pointing towards the snake. Like in chapter one they make a note to refer to the giant alligators without mentioning any other species in the creation.
Are you referring to this part
21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
the Hebrew word used to denote "monsters" there is "tanniyn"
It doesn't ever mean Alligator
page here with full explanation of its various meanings
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8577&t=KJV
But surely common sense should tell you that an alligator giant or otherwise doesn't live in the sea
;)


I thought the big fish in Jonah was about Dagon? Although now after reading a bit more about him that makes no sense what so ever since he seems more mereman than fish.
Dagons mere man image comes from him being syncretized with Oannes.
Oannes himself is a made up God based on the Babylonian fisherman Uan, who in turn is based on the Fisherman of Eridu Adapa.
Oannes was revealed to the Macedonian king Antiochus I by Berossus in his book the babyloniaca. I have to tell you, that most of that book was fraudulently fabricated by Berossus as a kind of Joke which the Macedonians just didnt get.

Adapa, and Uan were fishermen, Oannes is a fishman, you can see how that happened right

The creature that swallows Jonah is a whale, We know that whales arent fish, but every classification that existed in the ancient world thought they were and there is only one Whale on earth that has the capability to swallow a man whole and has actually done so in two instances, one of the men lived through the ordeal (though he didn't go to sea again afterwards).

The symbology here is simple the whale/fish as a symbol of the dangers of the ocean and by showing that God commands them at will is akin to saying God controls the sea. Jonah thought he could escape Gods will by sea so therefore when he realises that God controls the sea he agrees to do Gods bidding on land. Whats noticeable in the story after that is that it takes Jonah three days to reach Nineveh from the shores of the Mediteranean on foot. A distance of a 1000 miles, or if you like the same distance that took Moses 40 years to cross on his way out of Egypt
:p

That's what I'm refering to. 900-400 BCE.
It couldn't have been that myths were completely non-snake dervivative back then?
You'll have to rephrase that, I don't understand. Sorry
;)
 
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Are you referring to this part

the Hebrew word used to denote "monsters" there is "tanniyn"
It doesn't ever mean Alligator
page here with full explanation of its various meanings
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8577&t=KJV
But surely common sense should tell you that an alligator giant or otherwise doesn't live in the sea
;)
The word "Tanin" means "Alligator" in modern day hebrew.
Most likely the current meaning came long after, but still it's rather a sort of habbit around here.

Dagons mere man image comes from him being syncretized with Oannes.
<snipped for length>
That is a facinating read indeed. Thanks.

The creature that swallows Jonah is a whale
<snipped for length>
Never thought of it like that. I suppose it does make sense.
I natrually assumed the snake was different because he had a major role to play. You win some you lose some.

Whats noticeable in the story after that is that it takes Jonah three days to reach Nineveh from the shores of the Mediteranean on foot.

A distance of a 1000 miles, or if you like the same distance that took Moses 40 years to cross on his way out of Egypt
:p
DUH! Men don't ask for directions.

You'll have to rephrase that, I don't understand. Sorry
;)

You said:
The best known snake deity of the time was Ningishzida
I was wondering that (occurding to the link you provided) Genesis is debated to be around 400-900 BC. At the time there weren't any snake gods?
 
The word "Tanin" means "Alligator" in modern day hebrew.
Most likely the current meaning came long after, but still it's rather a sort of habbit around here.
you bet it did, as Alligators are only found in China and the U.S. so were completely unknown in the west at that time, or are you using alligator as a generic term for crocodilian ?
In those days it just meant "monster" so if used in conjunction with a river could have been used to describe a crocodile, but when used in conjunction with sea thats not so possible. So could be used to describe any sea creature that was perceived as monstrous, in this case the definition is easily found by referencing more recent translations such as the KJV which has for Genesis 1:21
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
In the 17th century when the KJV was translated from the Masoretic Hebrew text whales were still believed to be ship and man eating monsters who were in league with Satan
Whale is also one of the possible definitions listed in most biblical concordances
:D

I was wondering that (occurding to the link you provided) Genesis is debated to be around 400-900 BC. At the time there weren't any snake gods?
There were plenty of snake gods, but no proof that the Hebrews were in contact with the cultures that had them. Of the cultures they did know about,
1. Egypt no longer worshipped any snake Gods
2. Mesopotamia had Ningishzida who's influence stretched as far as Greece and Mesopotamia was where the early Hebrews spent a long holiday
3. Canaanites worshipped Asherah who connection with snakes is well founded. she was originally also the wife of YHWH
4. Minoa which worshipped a version of Asherah but with even more snake connections

but as I said, I don't think the serpent was in the garden for any other reason than its symbolic value (immortality and wisdom). If they'd wanted to use it to condemn a snake god they would have named it, they certainly named other Gods in the bible from cultures they didn't agree with, Merodach who is the Biblical name for Bel Marduk famously appears in Daniel and elsewhere amongst a few others
http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/bible2.htm

;)
 
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I'm back - sorry for my absence over the last couple of days. I've had a lot to do.

I'm trying to learn how to think critically about weird stuff like this, so don't be surprised if you see me starting more threads questioning weird ideas.

By the way, I think I should point out to those who think I'm still deliberately seeking this stuff out that I found the translations of these Emerald Tablets last year, but I still think about them sometimes.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that my thread got a discussion going. I'm going to read through the posts.
 
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I'm back - sorry for my absence over the last couple of days. I've had a lot to do.

I'm trying to learn how to think critically about weird stuff like this, so don't be surprised if you see me starting more threads questioning weird ideas.

By the way, I think I should point out to those who think I'm still deliberately seeking this stuff out that I found the translations of these Emerald Tablets last year, but I still think about them sometimes.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that my thread got a discussion going. I'm going to read through the posts.
Are you familiar with Occams Razor? To summarize, the simplest solution is usually correct. It might help to assume that the most rational explanation is correct, and work from that as a starting point. This doesn't make you closed minded .... it gives you a "solid foundation" from which to start from and fall back on. If you stay somewhere in the middle between belief and non-belief, it can at times be very difficult, because you remain in the realm of "but what if?" almost either way. Does that make sense?
 
Are you familiar with Occams Razor? To summarize, the simplest solution is usually correct. It might help to assume that the most rational explanation is correct, and work from that as a starting point. This doesn't make you closed minded .... it gives you a "solid foundation" from which to start from and fall back on. If you stay somewhere in the middle between belief and non-belief, it can at times be very difficult, because you remain in the realm of "but what if?" almost either way. Does that make sense?

Alternatively you could just ask someone who knows a lot about the subject for their opinion and the evidence its based on and use that as a guide
;)

the big clue in this case is that the Emerald Tablets were supposed to have been written by Hermes Trismegistus, who being an amalgamation between the Egyptian God Thoth and the Greek God Hermes never actually existed (insofar as any God actually existed) and wasn't worshipped in Egypt or Greece. He's more a kind of Avatar for alchemists and learned scholars in the middle ages to look up to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus
 
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Alternatively you could just ask someone who knows a lot about the subject for their opinion and the evidence its based on and use that as a guide
;)

the big clue in this case is that the Emerald Tablets were supposed to have been written by Hermes Trismegistus, who being an amalgamation between the Egyptian God Thoth and the Greek God Hermes never actually existed (insofar as any God actually existed) and wasn't worshipped in Egypt or Greece. He's more a kind of Avatar for alchemists and learned scholars in the middle ages to look up to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus
That helps on topics dealing with history and the like, but when you can't go to sleep at night because you're afraid of being abducted my shapeshifting reptiloids regardless of what experts say, sometimes it might help to be able to think rationally for oneself in a simple manner ;)

Dude :)

That's why I keep a copy of "There is a River" by my bedside, so I can refference someone who knows a lot about so much ... ;)
 
when you can't go to sleep at night because you're afraid of being abducted my shapeshifting reptiloids

I wish I had my own shapeshifting reptiloids
youre so lucky
:p

That's why I keep a copy of "There is a River" by my bedside, so I can refference someone who knows a lot about so much ... ;)
Surely thats only any good for wood related cancer treatments
:D
 
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Are you familiar with Occams Razor? To summarize, the simplest solution is usually correct. It might help to assume that the most rational explanation is correct, and work from that as a starting point. This doesn't make you closed minded .... it gives you a "solid foundation" from which to start from and fall back on. If you stay somewhere in the middle between belief and non-belief, it can at times be very difficult, because you remain in the realm of "but what if?" almost either way. Does that make sense?

Thanks, trentway. Occam's razor does make sense. That's kind of what I've been trying to do - stay somewhere in the middle between belief and non-belief. I'm still questioning these things, but I'm trying not to actually believe them.

Alternatively you could just ask someone who knows a lot about the subject for their opinion and the evidence its based on and use that as a guide
;)

the big clue in this case is that the Emerald Tablets were supposed to have been written by Hermes Trismegistus, who being an amalgamation between the Egyptian God Thoth and the Greek God Hermes never actually existed (insofar as any God actually existed) and wasn't worshipped in Egypt or Greece. He's more a kind of Avatar for alchemists and learned scholars in the middle ages to look up to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus

I didn't really believe it was a god who wrote this in the first place, but someone posing as a god in their writings, but it's still good to know that he can't have written anything if he never existed. Thanks.

That helps on topics dealing with history and the like, but when you can't go to sleep at night because you're afraid of being abducted my shapeshifting reptiloids regardless of what experts say, sometimes it might help to be able to think rationally for oneself in a simple manner ;)

Dude :)

That's why I keep a copy of "There is a River" by my bedside, so I can refference someone who knows a lot about so much ... ;)

Lol don't be silly. I'm not afraid that they'll abduct me, I'm afraid that they're secretly running the world :D
 
Lol don't be silly. I'm not afraid that they'll abduct me, I'm afraid that they're secretly running the world :D
I know, I was "expanding" on a hypothetical LOL :)

I wish I had my own shapeshifting reptiloids
youre so lucky
Talk to her.
:p

Surely thats only any good for wood related cancer treatments
:D
Hey, the Akashic records are right up there with Wikipedia as far as I'm concerned. I don't even need WiFi to access them.
 
I know, I was "expanding" on a hypothetical LOL :)

Understood :)

By the way I discovered that there is another book that mentions the reptilians in the way that David Icke describes - one that predates Icke's reptilian-conspiracy books. It's called Bringers of the Dawn and it's information that's channeled (or "channeled") through a woman called Barbara Marciniak...from the Pleiadians. This is from The Skeptic's Dictionary:

The Pleiadians are alien beings from the star cluster in the constellation Taurus known as the Pleiades. Barbara Marciniak claims that the Pleiadians chose her to be their messenger. She reveals this in her channeled book, Bringers of the Dawn. According to Marciniak the message is: "If you can clear people of their personal information, they can go cosmic." This message resonates with some people. For example, Kristine Barbieri gave the book 5 stars in her Amazon.com review:

This book really blew me away because it echoes the same ideas as other books I have read. As another reviewer mentioned, this book conveys the same message that David Icke's books do, that Reptilians are really in charge of this planet and keep us locked in fear for their own sustenance.

I still wonder - where does all this stuff come from? Who was the first one to write about reptilian beings controlling the earth? First, I thought David Icke was the first one to make these claims, but then I found out that Cathy O'Brien made these reptilian claims even earlier. But this woman wrote Bringers of the Dawn in 1992. But maybe there are others who make these claims even before this woman.

And then there's that woman who apparently told David Icke that Princess Diana used to call her in-laws "the reptiles" and "the lizards" and said, "seriously, they're not human!" I don't remember her name. But, anyway, Icke doesn't claim to be the one who "connected the dots". He claims that people from different parts of America told him they'd seen the people in power shapeshift:

And one theme that came up last year, May '98, it had been around a little bit but I put it on the back burner. There wasn't enough evidence to talk about it, really. And that was that people had seen people in positions of power, not exclusively so, but overwhelmingly so, turn into a reptilian form and then go back to human. And, in a period of 15 days, in May 1998, I met 12 separate people in different parts of America from different walks of life and different backgrounds, in my travels, who told me the same story. I thought, "What in the hell is going on here?!"

I'm thinking that at least some of these people may have read Bringers of the Dawn and gotten a bit carried away. At least, that's a possibility.

Sorry for all this rambling. I'm just trying to establish some sort of timeline for this reptilian theory.

A lot of people say that this theory debunks itself because it's so ridiculous, but the fact is that many, many people believe in it and have faith in Icke's research methods, not realizing how flawed they are. I still have yet to see a thorough debunking of the reptilian conspiracy theory. I want to research this more thoroughly and if I come out of this still being skeptical of it, I'd like to post my "debunking" on the web.

Many people won't understand why I want to do this, but it's something I feel I should do - for myself and for the other people out there who are afraid of things like this being true. Mostly, I'd like to silence that fearful "what if?" Maybe the way to do that is to face this stuff head-on and try to debunk it.

Maybe I should start a separate topic for this.
 

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