Rolfe
Adult human female
It was hyperbole. They do actually exist in the present, though, they're not merely a future projection or an ambition.
The Electric Revolution
- Thread starter acbytesla
- Start date
Trucks in fleets are more probable to be electric than owner/operator right now.
Just as electric cars were once more in fleet use than private use.
Still trucks are a more limited market and subject to much stricter requirements in use.
I think the large scale implementation of electric truck fleets depends on them not matching but exceeding diesel truck capabilities.
It will happen eventually but not as fast as some hope.
Battery swap or quick charging tech will be key to stepping up.
Just as electric cars were once more in fleet use than private use.
Still trucks are a more limited market and subject to much stricter requirements in use.
I think the large scale implementation of electric truck fleets depends on them not matching but exceeding diesel truck capabilities.
It will happen eventually but not as fast as some hope.
Battery swap or quick charging tech will be key to stepping up.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Often these things are a trickle, then all at once. Hard to predict how it will unfold.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree with this. Companies like FedEx, UPS etc could possibly charge their fleet of trucks every night. Granted they'll have to build the charging infrastructure which I imagine could be expensive. But that could be offset with energy costs.
Dabop
Master Poster
I didnt get to see them, but a mate did at the Everything Electric show in Sydney earlier in the year, apparently they got quite a few trial trucks already working around Sydney
Interestingly, they have gone the 'hot swap battery' route, which is really a dumb idea in cars, but actually doable with chassis mounted battery packs (BYD looked at that option for a while, and still could go back to it relatively easily as they use a similar 'side chassis mount' system)
Janus battery pack
BYD still use the same system they initially were going to do battery swaps with as well, but AFAIK they have quietly dropped the whole idea in favour of faster charging.... not even sure they can still be dropped even (at least without tools)
It's an idea that has repeatedly been put forward, but not one manufacturer has stayed with it....
I suspect Janus will quietly drop it too in a little while...
Dabop
Master Poster
Already happening around Australia lol- my sisters place in Brisbane they got the local supermarket uses a JAC pantech truck for their delivery runs, the Coles uses LDV pantechs, Aussie Post has been using Fuso and Volvo pantechs for interdepot deliveries and Mercedes Evans for local deliveries...
Mind you, thats been happening quietly for several years now JAC released their first EV truck in Australia in 2022
Coles first 'Sparky' is now past its second birthday doing deliveries...
Aussie Post has a fleet of over 5500 EV's so far, ranging from MR trucks down to EV bikes for the posties...
Ocado and other grocery delivery services here use electric vans, and Reading has just announced they're adding a couple of dozen electric buses to their fleet. Not long ago, I was rather surprised when the white Transit-type van next to me at the traffic lights kept up as I pulled away, only to realise that it was an EV. I'm not sure I've seen anything as big as an artic that's electric here yet.
As a result of discussion here I started going through our older rechargeable things dead and alive to check dates and types of battery they used.
Dead batteries go to recycle of course, not safe to store long term.
Cell phone batteries are all lithium. Swelled usually and maybe 4 years lifespan tops. Two years actual useful life.
Three older phones from pre 2010ish vintage battery not swollen and still solid. Odd.
3.7v lithium cells from just about anything lasting 2 years solid another 2 maximum in reduced state. Useless after that.
Two solar garden spots I have had 7 years still holding in reduced state have LYP04 cells dated to June of '01. These were on the roof year round for 5 of those years. Daily charge and discharge sessions.
B&D tool batteries dated 2019, 2021, 2023 all performing as well as the newest 2024 versions. Even the knockoffs haven't fallen off yet. Those hold the 3.7V lithium cells inside.
All my old AA Nicad cells are now down to 3 that haven't decayed yet.There were 12 or so 10 years ago. None hold my wall clock more than two months anymore.
They are now in the performance range of trying to save old alkaline batteries. (Yeah, I'm cheap and we never have spares)
This is real world usage, not anything scientific but it reveals the life in consumer products.
Dead batteries go to recycle of course, not safe to store long term.
Cell phone batteries are all lithium. Swelled usually and maybe 4 years lifespan tops. Two years actual useful life.
Three older phones from pre 2010ish vintage battery not swollen and still solid. Odd.
3.7v lithium cells from just about anything lasting 2 years solid another 2 maximum in reduced state. Useless after that.
Two solar garden spots I have had 7 years still holding in reduced state have LYP04 cells dated to June of '01. These were on the roof year round for 5 of those years. Daily charge and discharge sessions.
B&D tool batteries dated 2019, 2021, 2023 all performing as well as the newest 2024 versions. Even the knockoffs haven't fallen off yet. Those hold the 3.7V lithium cells inside.
All my old AA Nicad cells are now down to 3 that haven't decayed yet.There were 12 or so 10 years ago. None hold my wall clock more than two months anymore.
They are now in the performance range of trying to save old alkaline batteries. (Yeah, I'm cheap and we never have spares)
This is real world usage, not anything scientific but it reveals the life in consumer products.
Dabop
Master Poster
Despite all the Tesla semi nonsense, semi's as EV have actually been around for a while...
The 100th BYD semi sold in the USA- in 2020!!!!!
(still using the side chassis mount batts lol)
Dabop
Master Poster
I haven't got any Nicads left at all- the last of those disappeared a couple of decades ago lol (the old 2m handheld was nicad up until around 2004????)
Still got the old Sony I use as my ebook reader/music player for the car- its circa 2009 and still at full battery power- with the 2G /3G turned off (as they don't exist in Australia any more), its not uncommon for it to last a couple of days between charges....
I got a range of old 3.7v 18650's starting from about 2013 up until 2019 as I havent bought any since just before covid, there's about a dozen I use in the vape.... they get hammered pretty hard and are still holding up well for the most part (they get about 4A pulled from them when its operating...) 14.5W....
Most of my powertools batteries are 6x 2014 lithium, with a pair from 2009 NiMH (all Dewalt XRT)
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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Maybe you can help me. I'm turning a short school bus into an RV and am trying to maximize my spending. I'm going to put 2 or 3ea 370 watt panels on the roof. 40.2 VOC each. I was going to use a 300Ah 12volt battery because cars stuff is usually 12 volt. But now I'm convinced that 24 volt will work with pretty much everything I was going to use on the bus. Anyway, I think the most cost effective solution for is to use a single 24v hybrid inverter with MPPT charger built in.
As opposed to buying a stand alone inverter, mppt and ac charger.
What do you think?
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Erm...
"maximise my spending" ???
If that means what you say, may I recommend installing a Thorium Reactor?
Are you meaning maximise 'value for money' or minimise the amount you have to spend?
"maximise my spending" ???
If that means what you say, may I recommend installing a Thorium Reactor?
Are you meaning maximise 'value for money' or minimise the amount you have to spend?
Dabop
Master Poster
Whats the buses native voltage- I always say try and stay at that (in the US likely12v, outside the US almost certainly 24v)- that way you can utilise the buses alternator as a 'backup' charging system ... IF your bus is a native 12v system- why bother with 24v then- go 48v and take advantage of the lower prices in the 48v stuff... or just stay at 12v...
Not come across that brand before-it is VERY cheap for the supposed rating....
4KW sinewave inverter, AND a 140A MPPT charge controller as well???
You would need to run the panels in series- thats a must with that controller- and even then you are still down in the lower efficiency part of their operating voltages (the higher the panel voltage the better with MPPT- that unit has a PVmax rating of 280v, I would suggest that the safe operating voltage (combined Voc rating of the panels) should be no more than 80% of that in most of the US ie 225v max, unless you get snow regularly, in which case 70% max is the limit or 195v.... Running panels with those specs in parallel will give truly woeful performance indeed- as it won't even charge at all.... with the minimum MPPT voltage of 55v.... and a starting voltage of 90v- even your 3 series panels is right at the lower limit (2 won't do it)- a 40v Voc panel will likely be about 32-33v Vmp- and two in series is only 65v or thereabouts, even three in series is around 95-100v!!!! and it needs 90v as a minimum before it starts charging... (Vmp is what the panels will be running at when loaded, and they will be under load when the charge controller is trying to start charging...)
Considering the size is almost identical to my own 60a MPPT charge controller- AND they crammed a 4kw inverter in there too????- overheating would likely be a major issue if pushed anywhere near its limits.... assuming the advertised specs are correct- I have serious reservations its even capable of meeting half it supposed limits on a sustained basis- especially at that price..... ($700Au is incredibly cheap for something of that power- a Victron 24v 5kVa (also rated at 4kw) is nearly triple that price and doesn't include the charge controller, thats the same price as that entire unit for a 250/100 MPPT alone....
The Victron 5kVa for example is approximately 17.5 x 12.9 x 9.4 inches (44.4 cm x 32.8 cm x 24 cm) in height, that Sumry (with the same supposed wattage rating AND a charge controller in there as well) is 15.75 x 9.84 x 3.54 inches (40.0 x 25 x 9cm)
I find that.... unlikely....
Can you squeeze it all in a box that small- sure- thats not 'impossible' to do- will it be reliable- hell no- the fan cooling needed would sound like a jet engine screaming (that would be fun in a confined space like a van or bus- NOT...)- and it would STILL run red hot....
Note that 24v stuff is relatively rare and mega expensive as well- a 48v 5kVa Victron is $1800 Au here, where the identical 24v version is almost a grand more at $2800 Au.... (Victron IS expensive- but it also has a pretty good reputation- 'Sumry' is 'who the hell is that'- don't expect any support if it goes wrong....)
I tend to prefer 'separates' myself- but they do require more technical knowledge to set up and maintain- an 'all in one' box is a lot simpler for newbies....
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually there are tons of 24volt options in the US. The bus's electrical system is 12 volt. But, I planned on adding LED lights, a refrigerator and maybe a heat pump and a diesel heater. And all those can use 12 volt or 24 volt. But none of them use 48 volts.
Yes, I had planned on using the panels in series. That adds up to 121 volts VOC. And the MPPT controller specs is 140 maximum. I doubt I'll almost ever use more than 1500 watts AC and that will likely be for cooking. Microwave, induction cooktop.
I know Victron is very good. I'd love to buy a Victron Multiplus II, their MPPT charge controller, the Cerbo GX, the smart shunt, and the Lynx distributor. But then we're taking $2500 to $3000 US or $4000 AUD. That's too much for a bus RV that I'll use a few weeks of the year.
I understand you get what you pay for. And that is very inexpensive.
Dabop
Master Poster
Um nope- its PVmax (according to the link you gave me at Amazon) is 350v PVmax, (which is what the 80% of the series Voc should be ie 280v combined Voc...)
If the bus is 12v, stay at 12v then- that way you can arrive at your destination with a fully charged house bank (use a dual battery isolator to charge it while driving lol) and in an emergency, fire up the buses engine and charge the house bank with the engine....
There's no point in going 24v on a 12v system... stay at 12v (a lot of people think you cant have high output inverters on 12v- hell I only just retired my old 12v 8000w inverter from use (as I'm going to 48v for the house inverter)- sure you need heavy leads at 8kw, but I just use 'starter motor cables'... cheap enough...
Yes thats a decade old (2014 I bought it) 8000w/8kw 12 volt inverter....
What counts with MPPT charge controllers is the starting voltage- from the ad its 90v minimum starting voltage...
Your panels you said have a 40.2v Voc, that means a Vmp of around 32-33v- which is what they will be running around when loaded and the MPPT is starting up.... 3 in series is therefore not around 120v, but around 95-100v when starting- and thats BARELY above the minimum tarting voltage for that inverter- a 4 or even 5 series string would be advisable (and perform better to boot)- remember that its better to run at the higher end of the spectrum with MPPT- and its PVmax is well above 140v according to your link... (350v) the combined Voc should be under 280v....(6 series panels of 40.2v is your maximum limit unless in snow conditions, then 5... 3 is 'barely adequate' and will be a late starter and early finisher on charging....)
You can have up to 5600w but with your particular 370w 40v panels- you cant go past 6 in series ie 1850w rated power- so given the space, it would need a 6S2P (6 series/2 parallel) array to get to 3700w.... I doubt you'd have the roof space to go to its max but a 6S3P array would be ok to run at 5550w before running its inbuilt MPPT into clipping....
IF you keep your loads well down on that combo inverter (say 1800w max ie a single normal 15A US load) by itself at a time- then yes, its probably good enough for a 'occasional use' vehicle, especially at that price... just don't expect it to be good taken to its published limits lol
If the bus is 12v, stay at 12v then- that way you can arrive at your destination with a fully charged house bank (use a dual battery isolator to charge it while driving lol) and in an emergency, fire up the buses engine and charge the house bank with the engine....
There's no point in going 24v on a 12v system... stay at 12v (a lot of people think you cant have high output inverters on 12v- hell I only just retired my old 12v 8000w inverter from use (as I'm going to 48v for the house inverter)- sure you need heavy leads at 8kw, but I just use 'starter motor cables'... cheap enough...
Yes thats a decade old (2014 I bought it) 8000w/8kw 12 volt inverter....
What counts with MPPT charge controllers is the starting voltage- from the ad its 90v minimum starting voltage...
Your panels you said have a 40.2v Voc, that means a Vmp of around 32-33v- which is what they will be running around when loaded and the MPPT is starting up.... 3 in series is therefore not around 120v, but around 95-100v when starting- and thats BARELY above the minimum tarting voltage for that inverter- a 4 or even 5 series string would be advisable (and perform better to boot)- remember that its better to run at the higher end of the spectrum with MPPT- and its PVmax is well above 140v according to your link... (350v) the combined Voc should be under 280v....(6 series panels of 40.2v is your maximum limit unless in snow conditions, then 5... 3 is 'barely adequate' and will be a late starter and early finisher on charging....)
You can have up to 5600w but with your particular 370w 40v panels- you cant go past 6 in series ie 1850w rated power- so given the space, it would need a 6S2P (6 series/2 parallel) array to get to 3700w.... I doubt you'd have the roof space to go to its max but a 6S3P array would be ok to run at 5550w before running its inbuilt MPPT into clipping....
IF you keep your loads well down on that combo inverter (say 1800w max ie a single normal 15A US load) by itself at a time- then yes, its probably good enough for a 'occasional use' vehicle, especially at that price... just don't expect it to be good taken to its published limits lol
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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Thanks for the advice. I just found a used AIMS 12- 2000 Global LF on Facebook Marketplace.
AIMS Power 2000 Watt 12 Volt Pure Sine Inverter Charger
AIMS Power 2000 Watt 12 Volt Pure Sine Inverter Charger Overview The AIMS Power 2000 Watt Pure Sine Low Frequency Inverter with built-in battery charger and transfer switch is perfect for small-sized industrial applications that depend upon power being available even under heavy load. This...
outboundpower.com
I think I can get it for $300. That's a nice transformer based inverter charger. I want to be able to plug into grid power if I need to.
Am I on the right track?
Dabop
Master Poster
LF inverter (transformer) is always better than HF ones- indeed thats what my 12kw one here is a LF- their only drawback is weight- my 8kw HF PowerJack weighs in about 14kg, the 12kw LF Sigineer despite only being 4kw more is 72kg!!!!Thanks for the advice. I just found a used AIMS 12- 2000 Global LF on Facebook Marketplace.
AIMS Power 2000 Watt 12 Volt Pure Sine Inverter Charger
AIMS Power 2000 Watt 12 Volt Pure Sine Inverter Charger Overview The AIMS Power 2000 Watt Pure Sine Low Frequency Inverter with built-in battery charger and transfer switch is perfect for small-sized industrial applications that depend upon power being available even under heavy load. This...
I think I can get it for $300. That's a nice transformer based inverter charger. I want to be able to plug into grid power if I need to.
Am I on the right track?
(The HF is 8kw continuous, 16kw surge for 400milliseconds, the 12kw LF is 12kw continuous, 36kw surge for 20seconds... a LOT more power)- the first inverter you looked at is basically the size of that charge controller to the left of it lol (and less than quarter of the size of the 12v PowerJack !!!)
Yep Aims are a known brand and quite good quality- its a LF (good) has inbuilt charger and changeover switch internally (so you can have a mains plug on its 'mains in' connections and charge the battery bank while ever its plugged into the mains (at a campsite or at your home) with your buses 'outlets' on the 'mains output' terminals...
It doesnt do the panels however, so you will need to have an external MPPT charge controller- if you have 3 370w panels on a 12v battery bank, thats a 150v PVmax rated, 100A MPPT charge controller needed (with the thee panels you have in series) that pretty much maxes it out in both the PVmax rating and the charge current on a 12v system....
(a common mistake many make is that the current rating on charge controllers has NOTHING to do with the input/PV side- thats is its maximum OUTPUT rating- so a 100A charge controller is good for about 1300w of solar on a 12v nominal battery bank, 2600w on a 24v system, or 5200w on a 48v system...)
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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I know I'll have to add an MPPT controller. That AIMS inverter weighs 21.5 KG. But you pointed out the problem that concerned me about the heap hybrid inverter which was the starting PV voltage. i read that starting 90 volts and thought that could be a problem and you confirmed it. Buying used concerns me. But if it charges a 12 volt Lifepo4 battery and if that inverter can power a drill, it should be OK.
Dabop
Master Poster
Either would power a drill (most drills are about 400-600w for the 'home handyman' type, and even heavily loaded/stalled, won't exceed about 1800-2400w....) Although the LF is far superior for inductive loads like that than a HF.... (due to the short surge time on HF inverters...)
If you really wanted to, the 24v one would work- just stay WAAAY away from their supposed limits (I'd say half that at best lol) but yes- its high start voltage on the PV is of concern- you really need a fourth panel in series as the absolute minimum with its inbuilt charge controller.... (plus the whole 'unknown' brand thing- Amazon is FULL of crap...
sadly)- at least the AIMS is a well known brand and has a decent reputation for reliability... not as good as Victron, but not the price either (they have been here in Australia for well over a decade...)
If you really wanted to, the 24v one would work- just stay WAAAY away from their supposed limits (I'd say half that at best lol) but yes- its high start voltage on the PV is of concern- you really need a fourth panel in series as the absolute minimum with its inbuilt charge controller.... (plus the whole 'unknown' brand thing- Amazon is FULL of crap...
sadly)- at least the AIMS is a well known brand and has a decent reputation for reliability... not as good as Victron, but not the price either (they have been here in Australia for well over a decade...)
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