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The Electric Revolution

I definitely would go 96 volt at home today. I might even make the switch from 48 to 96 when I install more panels. 48 volt made more sense at the time I did the install.

30 feet of black and red 1/0 copper cabling is $242. 50 feet of 10 guage back and red copper is $53. I can get a single 60 amp MPPT charge controller that I can run 4 panels to in series. Going 12 volt I'm looking at 4 of them.

Going 48 volt on my skoolie will likely save me as much as $600.
 
Amazon??? PMSL....
24v rack mount batteries are a dime a dozen....
Hell you can get them from EG4 who sell in practically every country in the world...
View attachment 65029
Or EGBatts (different company) who have multiple sales in the US...
View attachment 65030
I know I wouldnt touch Signature Solar in the US with a ten foot bargepole (hell no- apart from their ripoff policies they are a yank company, so thats a deal breaker for me in the current climate...) but they stock them as well...
View attachment 65031
If you can't find them, you haven't been looking very hard lol
I googled PMSL and nothing.
 
You're right. I just found a bunch. Thanks. I was going to wait to buy the batteries at the end of the build because the cost may be less then.
 
I definitely would go 96 volt at home today. I might even make the switch from 48 to 96 when I install more panels. 48 volt made more sense at the time I did the install.

30 feet of black and red 1/0 copper cabling is $242. 50 feet of 10 guage back and red copper is $53. I can get a single 60 amp MPPT charge controller that I can run 4 panels to in series. Going 12 volt I'm looking at 4 of them.

Going 48 volt on my skoolie will likely save me as much as $600.
Ugh... looks around- are we back in 1999????

What on earth are you thinking- the panels voltage has ZERO to do with the battery bank voltage....
That 'thinking' went out with the PWM garbage back at the end of the last century (LITERALLY LOL)

MPPT you want the highest array voltage you can have- my own were 150v PVmax MPPT's on a 12v battery bank, being fed up to over 90v from the array
1761094208114.png1761094234822.jpeg
- if I was buying them these days, I'd go straight to a 250v PVmax like the Victrons or similar...
1761094286341.png

With my 38v Voc panels- thats 5 series panels per string- feeding approximately 160v into a 12v battery bank- all quite safely...
So a 12v battery bank on a 150v PVmax controller, and a 48v battery bank on a 150v PVmax controller use- exactly the same size cables- both on the input AND on the output...

Get into this century, and you can get actual performance that will leave those old PWM systems whimpering in the dust lol
As in literally from dawn to dusk, they work (in fact mine worth even before the sun is visible lol)
1761094467391.jpeg
Literally no direct sunlight on the panel- only half the sun above the horizon, and already half an amp flowing into the 12v battery bank - with the panels already at 52v!!!
 
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I am nowhere near an Internet newbie. I'd bet I was using the Internet before you. But I had never seen that acronym until now. Funny though.
I'd bet you'd lose that bet- I been on 'the net' since the 1980's dialing into my local BBS to get emails- on a Vic 20 with a 300 baud acoustic coupler modem....

PMSL has been on the net all of this century...- it was around when i got my first yahoo account (1998) which was my third actual email account...
 
Ugh... looks around- are we back in 1999????

What on earth are you thinking- the panels voltage has ZERO to do with the battery bank voltage....
That 'thinking' went out with the PWM garbage back at the end of the last century (LITERALLY LOL)

MPPT you want the highest array voltage you can have- my own were 150v PVmax MPPT's on a 12v battery bank, being fed up to over 90v from the array
View attachment 65032View attachment 65033
- if I was buying them these days, I'd go straight to a 250v PVmax like the Victrons or similar...
View attachment 65034

With my 38v Voc panels- thats 5 series panels per string- feeding approximately 160v into a 12v battery bank- all quite safely...

Get into this century, and you can get actual performance that will leave those old PWM systems whimpering in the dust lol
As in literally from dawn to dusk, they work (in fact mine worth even before the sun is visible lol)
View attachment 65035
Literally no direct sunlight on the panel- only half the sun above the horizon, and already half an amp flowing into the 12v battery bank - with the panels already at 52v!!!

I have never bought a PWM charge controller. But if I'm wrong as to what I need then thank you for correctting my misunderstanding. My EPever MPPT charge controllers on my RV had a 60 volt input voltage limit.

TECHNICIAL SPECIFICATION】The rated battery charging current is 60A, with a configurable range from 2A to 60A. The rated load output current is 25A. For optimal performance: 12V system: 720W (DC 20V–80V); 24V system: 1440W (DC 37V–105V); 36V system: 2100W (DC 50V–160V); 48V system: 2800W (DC 72V–160V)
 
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With MPPT charge controllers- series is best (in fact some higher voltage ones like the 250v PVmax ones might need upwards of 50v to even start working at all- so the old 'parallel your panels' (in itself a hangover from the PWM days) is a poor choice- series will give you up to 30% or more total daily power generated compared to a low voltage parallel string on MPPT or PWM charge controller....

In most parts of the world- what you want is get the panels Voc rating, multiply it by the number of panels in the series string- and that resulting number should be no more than 80% of the PVmax rating....

Using mine as an example- mine are 150v PVmax rating so 80% of that is 120v max combined Voc...
1761096075051.jpeg

My panels have a 38.17v Voc rating...
1761096160489.jpeg
Three in series is 114.51v combined Voc- just below that 'safe' 120v limit....
If I had the 250v Victron, then its safe working limit (for most of the world) is 200v (80% of 250v) which means 5 of my panels is the safe working limit in a single series string (5x 38.17v = 190.85v combined Voc- just under that 200v limit...

In colder climates (ie anywhere you get snow on a regular basis and sub zero temps) then allow 30% instead of 20%...

There is a very good reason for this- look at my panels spec label- and you will see that its specs apply ONLY at STC or Standard Test Conditions- the hotter they get above 25C the LESS power (and voltage) they make- and the reverse also applies- drop the temps below freezing, and they make MORE power(and voltage)....

If you get an increase in light levels above 1000w/m^2- their voltage and power goes UP, if the temp drops they go up- so a nice white snowy ground reflecting extra light at the panels, with them making more because of the colder temps- can push the voltage up 15%-20% or more- which is why people in those conditions should leave that extra 10% safety margin up to 30% ...

Look at your panels specs sheets and you will usually find something like this...
1761096733819.jpeg
For every single degree the panel temp drops below 25C, the power INCREASES by 0.4%, and the Voc voltage increases by 0.27%...

If your temps are down say 15C below zero- your panels will be 40C below their STC ratings- so that 38.17v 250w panel of mine in say Canada will be up from 250w to 290w!!!! (thats with the same light levels even!!!) but more importantly for our charge controllers, the voltage has also risen to 41v each- with three in series it is still safe at 123.6v, but had I 'crowded the limit' and stuck four panels on the controller it would now be over 161v- ten volts over the 'let magic smoke out' limit of 150v....
1761097554239.jpeg
Lot more than just 'stick a panel on a battery' as far too many seem to think lol....
 
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With MPPT charge controllers- series is best (in fact some higher voltage ones like the 250v PVmax ones might need upwards of 50v to even start working at all- so the old 'parallel your panels' (in itself a hangover from the PWM days) is a poor choice- series will give you up to 30% or more total daily power generated compared to a low voltage parallel string on MPPT or PWM charge controller....

In most parts of the world- what you want is get the panels Voc rating, multiply it by the number of panels in the series string- and that resulting number should be no more than 80% of the PVmax rating....

Using mine as an example- mine are 150v PVmax rating so 80% of that is 120v max combined Voc...
View attachment 65036

My panels have a 38.17v Voc rating...
View attachment 65037
Three in series is 114.51v combined Voc- just below that 'safe' 120v limit....
If I had the 250v Victron, then its safe working limit (for most of the world) is 200v (80% of 250v) which means 5 of my panels is the safe working limit in a single series string (5x 38.17v = 190.85v combined Voc- just under that 200v limit...

In colder climates (ie anywhere you get snow on a regular basis and sub zero temps) then allow 30% instead of 20%...

There is a very good reason for this- look at my panels spec label- and you will see that its specs apply ONLY at STC or Standard Test Conditions- the hotter they get above 25C the LESS power (and voltage) they make- and the revers also applies- drop the temps below freezing, and they make MORE power(and voltage)....

If you get an increase in light levels above 1000w/m^2- their voltage and power goes UP, if the temp drops they go up- so a nice white snowy ground reflecting extra light at the panels, with them making more because of the colder temps- can push the voltage up 15%-20% or more- which is why people in those conditions should leave that extra 10% safety margin up to 30% ...

Look at your panels specs sheets and you will usually find something like this...
View attachment 65038
For every single degree the panel temp drops below 25C, the power INCREASES by 0.4%, and the Voc voltage increases by 0.27%...

If your temps are down say 15C below zero- your panels will be 40C below their STC ratings- so that 38.17v 250w panel of mine in say Canada will be up from 250w to 290w!!!! (thats with the same light levels even!!!) but more importantly for our charge controllers, the voltage has also risen to 41v each- with three in series it is still safe at 123.6v, but had I 'crowded the limit' and stuck four panels on the controller it would now be over 161v- ten volts over the 'let magic smoke out' limit of 150v....
View attachment 65039
Lot more than just 'stick a panel on a battery' as far too many seem to think lol....
I thought the STC suggested how much I would lose above the rated panel's wattage at higher temperatures above that number. I never thought it worked the other way. But that makes sense. I know that panels have lower resistance in colder temperatures and perform better. But I don't think I have ever generated a panel's rating. Lucky if I got 80%. But my experience is limited to my panels.
 
I have never bought a PWM charge controller. But if I'm wrong as to what I need then thank you for correctting my misunderstanding. My EPever MPPT charge controllers on my RV had a 60 volt input voltage limit.

TECHNICIAL SPECIFICATION】The rated battery charging current is 60A, with a configurable range from 2A to 60A. The rated load output current is 25A. For optimal performance: 12V system: 720W (DC 20V–80V); 24V system: 1440W (DC 37V–105V); 36V system: 2100W (DC 50V–160V); 48V system: 2800W (DC 72V–160V)
Not a particularly good choice of charge controller- thats a low voltage MPPT- remember what I said about them????
series will give you up to 30% or more total daily power generated compared to a low voltage parallel string on MPPT or PWM charge controller....

Swapping the EP(n)ever for a 250v like a Victron 250/60 or similar will net you a considerable increase in total daily generated power- the high voltage MPPT will start earlier and finish later.... thats where that 30% increase comes from over the low voltage MPPT....
1761098849400.png
From your description you have the Tracer AN series MPPT controller
on a 24v system its only capable of handling about 70v, on a 48v system its only 114v
They use a very weird MPPT implementation- not a big fan.... at all....
My Sigineers for example can handle the full PV max rating regardless of battery bank voltage.... as can the Victron's- in fact basically everyone except EVever can...
??????
1761099397904.png


I have seen even my panels here (which usually run about 220-230w at best during most of the year) hit brief spikes that made me question if even my 20% 'safety margin' was sufficient- with spikes of 15% happening fairly regularly in 'perfect storm' conditions- Summer but cool weather at midday, after it just finished raining and with almost full light (grey) cloud cover but with breaks in the clouds and a shaft of light hitting the panels spike them every time 10-15%....

Its the 'perfect storm' of high generation... Summer (high sunarc so solar insolation is highest), cool day cool panels- more output, just been cooled by rainfall- cooler again, direct sunlight PLUS the 30-50% extra you get from cloud scatter- it all adds up to a momentary spike (it may only last a minute or two) thats well above their STC ratings...- but if it takes the array above the PVmax rating- it only takes milliseconds for the magic smoke to come out....
 
Not a particularly good choice of charge controller- thats a low voltage MPPT- remember what I said about them????
series will give you up to 30% or more total daily power generated compared to a low voltage parallel string on MPPT or PWM charge controller....

Swapping the EP(n)ever for a 250v like a Victron 250/60 or similar will net you a considerable increase in total daily generated power- the high voltage MPPT will start earlier and finish later.... thats where that 30% increase comes from over the low voltage MPPT....
View attachment 65041
From your description you have the Tracer AN series MPPT controller
on a 24v system its only capable of handling about 70v, on a 48v system its only 114v
They use a very weird MPPT implementation- not a big fan.... at all....
My Sigineers for example can handle the full PV max rating regardless of battery bank voltage.... as can the Victron's- in fact basically everyone except EVever can...
??????
View attachment 65042


I have seen even my panels here (which usually run about 220-230w at best during most of the year) hit brief spikes that made me question if even my 20% 'safety margin' was sufficient- with spikes of 15% happening fairly regularly in 'perfect storm' conditions- Summer but cool weather at midday, after it just finished raining and with almost full light (grey) cloud cover but with breaks in the clouds and a shaft of light hitting the panels spike them every time 10-15%....

Its the 'perfect storm' of high generation... Summer (high sunarc so solar insolation is highest), cool day cool panels- more output, just been cooled by rainfall- cooler again, direct sunlight PLUS the 30-50% extra you get from cloud scatter- it all adds up to a momentary spike (it may only last a minute or two) thats well above their STC ratings...- but if it takes the array above the PVmax rating- it only takes milliseconds for the magic smoke to come out....
I have a 12 volt Tracer AN on my RV. 2ea 60 cell panels. Victron's at the time were double the price at least. My home setup is very different. 48 volt system.

And that 60amp Victron charge controller cost $470. The 100 amp version is $622. I can't justify the price.
 
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I have a 12 volt Tracer AN on my RV. My home setup is very different. 48 volt system.
I used the exact same Sigineer charge controllers on both the 12v system on the caravan, and now the 48v system (in fact the only thing that changed was the inverter itself!!!)
Same panels on the same charge controllers, on the same cells (16x 400Ah cells- just now connected in 16S instead of 4S4P lol)
 
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I'd bet you'd lose that bet- I been on 'the net' since the 1980's dialing into my local BBS to get emails- on a Vic 20 with a 300 baud acoustic coupler modem....

PMSL has been on the net all of this century...- it was around when i got my first yahoo account (1998) which was my third actual email account...
We're pretty close to each other. Call it a tie.

I worked selling PC and PC components before there was an Internet Protocol, Internet Service Providers, or the World Wide Web. Emails on ARPANET didn't use to use TCIP and DNS.

My first job in the computer industry was loading punch cards into mainframes long before IBM introduced the first PC. Circa 1979.
 
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We're pretty close to each other. Call it a tie.

I worked selling PC and PC components before there was an Internet Protocol, Internet Service Providers, or the World Wide Web. Emails on ARPANET didn't use to use TCIP and DNS.

My first job in the computer industry was loading punch cards into mainframes long before IBM introduced the first PC. Circa 1979.
The very first system i used was at our local college- it wasn't quite as old as punched card, it had VT100 dumb terminals instead (barely one step up from punched cards lol) and they were literally 'state of the art' I was one of the first five that got to use one.... they still had the packing sitting on the floor next to them... my first 'own' computer that was all mine wasn't until 82 when I bought the Vic- a whole 3 1/2k of ram to play with...

Did you play with the S100 systems???- I nearly 'rolled my own' using a DSE System 80 with a S100 'expansion system' added. but the pricepoint on the Vic (and it was prebuilt, not a kit you had to assemble yourself) swung the balance...
 
The very first system i used was at our local college- it wasn't quite as old as punched card, it had VT100 dumb terminals instead (barely one step up from punched cards lol) and they were literally 'state of the art' I was one of the first five that got to use one.... they still had the packing sitting on the floor next to them... my first 'own' computer that was all mine wasn't until 82 when I bought the Vic- a whole 3 1/2k of ram to play with...

Did you play with the S100 systems???- I nearly 'rolled my own' using a DSE System 80 with a S100 'expansion system' added. but the pricepoint on the Vic (and it was prebuilt, not a kit you had to assemble yourself) swung the balance...
No.

The job loading stacks of punch cards was a night job for a payroll company. I played Zork, an early text base computer game on a PDP system at college. My first computer was a Timex Sinclair Z80. Couldn't get it to do anything though. A whopping g 16K of memory. My second computer was a Kaypro CPM based system with no hard drive. Just a 360K floppy. Think Matthew Broderick and the movie War Games. And coincidentally, I use hang out in the computer lab at the University of Washington that was used in the movie.
 
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No.

The job loading stacks of punch cards was a night job for a payroll company. I played Zork, an early text base computer game on a PDP system at college. My first computer was a Timex Sinclair Z80. Couldn't get it to do anything though. A whopping g 16K of memory. My second computer was a Kaypro CPM based system with no hard drive. Just a 360K floppy. Think Matthew Broderick and the movie War Games. And coincidentally, I use hang out in the computer lab at the University of Washington that was used in the movie.
LOL- the old ZX80- mate had one with the 16k expansion pack on it- was never reliable until he found that you literally had to 'prop' the expansion pack up at a slight angle- then it worked ok....
 
You can get electric pads to keep your batteries warm enough to charge and discharge. Still, you're using electricity to keep the batteries functioning.

It's not Siberia here, and the home battery keeps itself warm enough just by operating most of the time. It's the car battery that likes to have a heating cycle run overnight if it's been sitting for a while and then I need it first thing in the morning.

Suppliers do actually supply batteries appropriate to the conditions expected.
 
You are getting borderline to joining 'that' other UK person...

And overnight offpeak tariffs were introduced to INCREASE nighttime consumption- this was because baseload thermal plants have a very narrow band of fuel efficiency- if the load gets too small, their fuel consumption rises rapidly.... and they struggle to change their output rapidly...

So 'cheap' offpeak rates were introduced to try and get people to INCREASE their nighttime electricity consumption- because that pushed the fuel economy back into the 'cheap to feed it' band.... (or worse, having to shut a plant down entirely... a difficult and expensive thing to do, avoided at all costs...)

Its also why the outright lying coming from some electricity suppliers is so annoying- widespread rooftop residential solar in Australia has not only cut the need for SEVEN new baseload plants, but has actually allowed several older coal fired plants to be closed early to boot....

If we didn't have that residential rooftop solar here, we would need over 20GW of new generators in place (BIG $$$$) and worse- unless they were gas fired (quick ramp up and ramp down, but cost more than thermal coal plants to run) they would make the overnight glut of electricity even WORSE....
Newsflash: Other countries don't all have the same mix of renewable sources. For example, some countries such as the UK have lots of wind power, which still provides plenty of energy even when the sun goes down. Thus it makes sense to encourage people to store this energy during off-peak hours to keep the wind farms economical and reduce the peak loading on the national grid, as consumers can use energy they have stored locally at non-peak time to meet their energy needs during peak time.

This is exactly what Rolfe is doing and what the energy companies and the grid want people to do, which is why they still offer the electricity cheap.
 

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