The Electric Comet theory

Status
Not open for further replies.
A brief historical outline of the evolution of the electric comet theory may be helpful.

It is clear that at least by the second half of the 19th century, many scientists believed that comet tails were fundamentally electrical. For example, in 1872, Scientific American (July 27th, p. 57), informed its readers that "Professor Zollner of Leipsic" ascribes the "self-luminosity" of comets to "electrical excitement." According to the article, Zollner suggests that "the nuclei of comets, as masses, are subject to gravitation, while the vapors developed from them, which consist of very small particles, yield to the action of the free electricity of the sun...."

Also in the 19th century, the August 11, 1882 English Mechanic and World of Science, pp. 516-7, wrote of cometary tails: "...There seems to be a rapidly growing feeling amongst physicists that both the self-light of comets and the phenomena of their tails belong to the order of electrical phenomena."

1872? 1882?

Are you serious?
 

Just looked through that stuff, it's all pretty pictures and lots of text and nothing quantitative. The only equations show up in the appendix, and that only to give "vector algebra" and "the electomagnetic field equations" (and in the latter they don't seem to know the difference between [latex]\partial[/latex] and [latex]\delta[/latex]. So I stand by my case, there is NOTHING QUANTITATIVE about the electric universe.

Which should be surprising, though, because the EU/ES/EC god Hannes Alfvén was a great mathematician, and actually calculated stuff, but then the acolytes are always a weak infusion of the original. Now there is Don Scott's paper, of course in which he actually does math and stuff (Real Properties of Electromagnetic Fields and Plasma in the Cosmos) but then he makes up all kinds of strawman arguments to discredit mainstream plasma(astro)physics, e.g. from the introduction: "Many helioastronomers claim that magnetic fields can be open ended. Astrophysicists have claimed that galactic magnetic fields begin and end on molecular clouds. Most electrical engineers, physicists, and pioneers in the electromagnetic field theory disagree, i.e., magnetic fields have no beginning or end." which only shows that Don does not (want to) understand the nomenclature of mainstream plasma(astro)physics.

Or another example in the introduction: "Many astrophysicists still claim that magnetic fields are “frozen into” electric plasma." Indeed they do, because in a lot of cases the frozen in approximation is a very good tool to work with, BUT we are well aware that frozen in is not always valid which is clearly shown in a paper by my good friend Tony Lui: Breakdown of the frozen-in condition in the Earth's magnetotail. So Don should have tried to understand what mainstream does, and naturally, publish the paper in a appropriate journal, not IEEE.

or you could watch and comment on their video, it's published there too :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo

I have the transcript of the video, and there is lots of handwaving there and nothing specific. comments like "when the comet is active you cannot determine the mass very well" (or something in that trend) is completely ridiculous.

Or can we please get a real model for this "Here an arriving comet moves on an elliptical path through the Sun’s electric field. An exceedingly weak field but immensely powerful across the great distances of interplanetary space. As the comet draws closer to the sun the charge imbalance triggers electric discharge creating a coma and long cometary tail." If the field is so weak, and the solar wind is full of ions and electrons, why is there no gradual equilibration, and if there are discharges, why did we not measure them with our instruments at comet Halley as seen in the Laakso (1991) paper? Again, Alfvén would have no problems giving detailed calculations and even use observations, e.g. observations shown in this Grard et al. (1989) paper.

Put some butter to the fish, as the Dutch say, otherwise you have butter on your head.
 
Last edited:
Always the cry, we have to do our own research to find things out.
Why can't any of these people (pseudo science types and conspiracy types in general) ever just present their theory, give some support and answer questions when they are asked?
They never get that if they make the claim it's their job to support it, not our job to go off and research it for them.
 
Well, on the bright side, threads like this are very educational (the 'E' in JREF) for people like me. I had absolutely no idea there were people clinging desperately to bizarre 19th century guesses about the universe that have absolutely no basis in science. I mean, people clinging to stuff that's thousands of years old because of religion or something, I can understand, but to make it all the way to the 19th century and then decide "that's it--no farther". That's just amazing!

I have definitely learned something. (What I'm going to do with this knowledge is another question.) :)
 
Short answer - don't know. My guess would be, from reading the electric comet theory, is that the charge difference is insufficient.

So in other words a body that spends time way out there for an extended period and then comes in doesn't have sufficient charge difference?

In other words the theory is wrong. Or how far from the sun do you have to get Haig?

So there isn't a charge difference within Mars' orbit. Given the recent maps of the NE asteroids and the PH asteroids, we can rule that out.

So no charge difference between the sun a Mars' orbit.

We know that the four objects in the main asteroid belt that have comas have less eccentric orbits and live in the same area as the main belt population.

So why do only four have comas?

There are all the Jupiter area asteroids, no comas, so no charge difference out to Jupiter.
 
You have to do you own digging a bit ...

From the link I posted ... http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/electric_universe/esp_electricuniverse21.htm

read past 1872? 1882? :-) ... to Ralph E. Juergens and others ... http://www.kronos-press.com/juergens/k0801-electric-i.htm

That Juergens' paper I have already shown to lead to local IMF magnetic fields orders of magnitude greater than measured around the Earth. Just a small mistake, can happen, Juergens did not know the IMF near the Earth probably when he came up with his model. Unfortunately for the EU peeps, that is about the only paper which does some quantitative work, and then it is wrong .... just search for it I did it here on the board for reasonable assumptions.

http://electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

The electric comet and the electric sun ... follow from each other

Oh great! the electric Sun once more! And look at those figures, axes with some units but NO actual values! And there is totally nothing there about comets.

Can you actually come up with a REAL paper, Haig?
 
Oh great! the electric Sun once more! And look at those figures, axes with some units but NO actual values! And there is totally nothing there about comets.
If you'd actually looked at a even a little of the video you'd realise the electric Sun is an intrinsic part of the presentation.

Can you actually come up with a REAL paper, Haig?[/I]
Care to give some papers where the Standard Model of Comets has predicted what facts and events surrounding active comets INSTEAD of being totally surprised by them then pushing out ad-hoc papers to try to explain things.

The Electric Comet theory, as shown in great detail in the video, successfully explained and predicted (ahem, before the event) comet behaviour.

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo is by far the best explanation we have to-date imo.

Even just look at the long list of credits http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/08/05/electric-comet-credits/ and you may appreciate that this critical analysis of textbook theory can/should have a major impact on comet science.

You say you have a transcript of the video yet appear unaware of what the they show quite clearly. Can you give a link to this transcript? I'm curious :)
 
Well at the moment I am calculating what the magnetometer will measure when Rosetta is in the approach phase towards comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko as shown here.

ETA: my poster is basically finished, I will make a pdf for download available next week.
 
Last edited:
If you'd actually looked at a even a little of the video you'd realise the electric Sun is an intrinsic part of the presentation.

I was talking about the website that you said was giving the electric whatever theory. If the electric sun has no value, then the electic comet has no merit too, because the electric sun is apparently an intrinsic part. Ah well, go to thunderdolts and get some answers from your friends for us, Haig.

Care to give some papers where the Standard Model of Comets has predicted what facts and events surrounding active comets INSTEAD of being totally surprised by them then pushing out ad-hoc papers to try to explain things.

Well, as you see in the previous post of mine, I made a poster for the EPSC in London in September, giving estimates as to when Rosetta will be able to observe cyclotron waves, the power of which we then can use for understanding how active (outgassing) the comet is.

The Electric Comet theory, as shown in great detail in the video, successfully explained and predicted (ahem, before the event) comet behaviour.

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo is by far the best explanation we have to-date imo.

Even just look at the long list of credits http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/08/05/electric-comet-credits/ and you may appreciate that this critical analysis of textbook theory can/should have a major impact on comet science.

You say you have a transcript of the video yet appear unaware of what the they show quite clearly. Can you give a link to this transcript? I'm curious :)

I am not going to watch a 1.5 hours youtube video with just handwaving science. Please point me to specific parts where they explain qualitatively AND quantitativly how e.g. the voltage difference is created and how it suddenly comes to discharges (between what and what actually?). Just show me to a link or a paper in which there is an actual quantitative explanatino, it should be so difficult for the gmirkin or whoever on thunderdolts to actually come up with the model and the math.

And oohhhh wat a nice list of pretty pictures that they used in the vid. It would have been better if they had a list of published papers that they used. But then again .... there are no electric comet papers, because there is no electric comet theory, it is only handwaving.

I have a transcript on my laptop, it is a 26 page pdf (370 kB) I got from a friend of a friend. And I quoted from it, below, and asked you to reply to it, which naturally you did not do, as you don't have any answers, just your mantra. I cannot attach it because it is to big, but will mail it to who wants to have it.
 
If you'd actually looked at a even a little of the video you'd realise the electric Sun is an intrinsic part of the presentation.


Care to give some papers where the Standard Model of Comets has predicted what facts and events surrounding active comets INSTEAD of being totally surprised by them then pushing out ad-hoc papers to try to explain things.

The Electric Comet theory, as shown in great detail in the video, successfully explained and predicted (ahem, before the event) comet behaviour.

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo is by far the best explanation we have to-date imo.

Even just look at the long list of credits http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/08/05/electric-comet-credits/ and you may appreciate that this critical analysis of textbook theory can/should have a major impact on comet science.

You say you have a transcript of the video yet appear unaware of what the they show quite clearly. Can you give a link to this transcript? I'm curious :)

Still no evidence.
 
If you'd actually looked at a even a little of the video you'd realise the electric Sun is an intrinsic part of the presentation.


Care to give some papers where the Standard Model of Comets has predicted what facts and events surrounding active comets INSTEAD of being totally surprised by them then pushing out ad-hoc papers to try to explain things.

The Electric Comet theory, as shown in great detail in the video, successfully explained and predicted (ahem, before the event) comet behaviour.

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo is by far the best explanation we have to-date imo.

Even just look at the long list of credits http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/08/05/electric-comet-credits/ and you may appreciate that this critical analysis of textbook theory can/should have a major impact on comet science.

You say you have a transcript of the video yet appear unaware of what the they show quite clearly. Can you give a link to this transcript? I'm curious :)
So, accepting everything that's been posted - uncritically - I can now make some confident predictions:

* every space-craft sent from Earth to other solar system bodies (Moon excepted) will become a comet at some point in its orbit; this includes stray rocket stages as well as instrumented gizmos

* Mars and its moons Phobos and Deimos are comets

* the Rosetta mission will end in a giant bolt of lightning, when it gets close to comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko.

Riiight, spectacularly successful, this "Electric Comet theory", eh? ;)
 
Still no evidence.

Neither is there a real "scientific review" of that vid going on on youtube, but hey, who is surprised there?
If thunderdolts want a real scientific review, they should write a scientific paper on electric comets. A paper like that would have to contain the following:

  • What is the electric field around the Sun, what is its strength and why does the potential of the cometary nucleus not adjust itself gradually when there is enough free charge available in the solar wind.
  • How does the discharging take place, to the surroundings creating the coma, or to the surface creating craters or what?
  • How does the EC create the water or hydroxyl, needed for the observations, when the process that takes place on the moon delivered over millions of years about a quart or "water" on a surface of dozens of football fields? (don't remember the exact amount but it was very little, see reference in this paper)

This would be a start
 
Neither is there a real "scientific review" of that vid going on on youtube, but hey, who is surprised there?
You don't think Tim Thompson or Travis Rector are real scientists? both have "reviewed" the the vid on youtube. Travis got upset by the 5sec use of one of his images and had the vid pulled off youtube ... unfairly as it turned out.

Fair Use: Now More Imperative Than Ever http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/08/20/fair-use/

The Thunderbolts team got it reinstated by arguing this case:-
We consider our documentary to be an exemplary instance of fair use for these reasons:

1) The use is educational, non-commercial, and potentially transformative;
2) The nature of the work is factual, not fictitious;
3) The photo in question played for a total of 5 seconds;
4) By highlighting decades of comet surprises, the video can only enhance both public and scientific interest in comets and add value to the image used, not diminish it.

Hey btw tusenfem is Tim or Travis your "friend of a friend" source for that vid transcript? the one that has important stuff missing, like the Sun :rolleyes:
 
If you are so confident you have a valid Scientific Theory that has evidence and can be supported, why don't you present it on the Cosmoquest (Former BAUT) ATM Forum.

Isn't that a more appropriate place to do it?
 
If you are so confident you have a valid Scientific Theory that has evidence and can be supported, why don't you present it on the Cosmoquest (Former BAUT) ATM Forum.

Isn't that a more appropriate place to do it?

Ahem, I don't have any theory on it .... but Thunderbolts do.

Why don't you put your suggestion to them on the comments for the video?

I'm sure they will explain to you why they are doing it this way :)

The Electric Comet | Full Documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom