The Electric Comet theory

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Sol88 said:
Expected in an electric comet!

Did Enckes tail display the filamentary form expected by an electric current in a plasma?
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Not expected in electric comet!
Electric comet predicts narrow band X-ray emission: TOTAL FAIL :eye-poppi!
Electric comet predicts density like asteriod: TOTAL FAIL :eye-poppi!

Sol88 cannot read his sources :eye-poppi: The structure is in the coma not tail.

Comet coma are essentially plasma in a magnetic field (the solar magnetic field) so standard plasma science predicts ... filamentary structures from the magnetic fields!
Thus Enckes coma displayed the filamentary form expected by plasma in a magnetic field.

There are no large scale electric currents in a plasma so your ignornace of science is obvious once :jaw-dropp (Debye length)
 
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These might be relevant (not sure, haven't looked into electric comet ideas much, just googled quickly for references):

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4346306
The Electrical Nature of Comets
Thornhill, W.W.
Vemasat Australia, Chapman;

This paper appears in: Plasma Science, 2007. ICOPS 2007. IEEE 34th International Conference on
Publication Date: 17-22 June 2007
On page(s): 1000-1000
Location: Albuquerque, NM,
ISSN: 0730-9244
ISBN: 978-1-4244-0915-0
INSPEC Accession Number: 9784314
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/PPPS.2007.4346306
Current Version Published: 2007-10-15
Abstract
Comet displays are thought to be due to sublimation of volatile ices from an inert nucleus in the heat of the Sun. For example, the Stardust mission has shown that the origin of comets requires some high-temperature conditions. A 'cross-eye' stereo pair of comet Wild 2's nucleus showing typical EDM erosion. Comet flybys have shown phenomena of great complexity and higher energy than expected. Comet Hyakutake showed unsuspected high-energy processes taking place in the comet. A forbidden oxygen spectral line in the coma of Comet Austin pointed to an intense electric field. Activity is restricted to small areas on each comet nucleus and takes the form of collimated jets, which maintain their filamentary coherence across tens of millions of kilometers. The complex structure and high-energy behavior can be explained if the comet is a charged body moving in a radial electric field responsible for accelerating the solar-wind plasma, rather than an inert, heated body in a rarefied supersonic "wind." The jets and surface topography of comets are consistent with EDM erosion of a cathode surface. The fine dust particles may be the result of cathode sputtering. The presence of the OH radical may be due to combination of sputtered negative oxygen ions from the comet nucleus with solar 'wind' protons and is consistent with the lack of water ice observed on comet nuclei. On the basis of an electrical theory of comets, the author predicted that the Deep Impact mission would observe an electrical flash before impact with the copper projectile and that the outburst would be more energetic than expected.
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http://thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf
POSTER PRESENTATION
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
33rd International Conference on Plasma Sciences (ICOPS)
Traverse City, Michigan
June 4-8, 2006

Possible Mechanism of Cometary Outbursts http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000mbos.work..177I
 
Zeuzzz said:
These might be relevant (not sure, haven't looked into electric comet ideas much, just googled quickly for references):

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4346306

http://thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf
POSTER PRESENTATION
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
33rd International Conference on Plasma Sciences (ICOPS)
Traverse City, Michigan
June 4-8, 2006

Possible Mechanism of Cometary Outbursts http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000mbos.work..177I
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A poster presentation of an idea that is easily proved wrong:
Electric comet predicts narrow band X-ray emission (from EDM), reality is broad band X-rays: TOTAL FAIL :eye-poppi!
 
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Reality Check said:
What is 2.6 g per centimeter cubed in kilograms per metre cubed
Answer: 2600 kilograms per meter cubed

Electric comet predicts density like asteriod: TOTAL FAIL :eye-poppi!

Sol88 skills in mathematics ... EPIC FAIL:eye-poppi!
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Comet wild 2

Nucleus parameters

* Dimensions: 5.5×4.0×3.3 km[4]
* Density: 0.6 g/cm³[5]
* Mass: 2.3 × 1013 kg[6]

Oh I see it's lighter than water, so it must be made of ice right? :rolleyes:

but wait, my trollish friend, there is more!

What did we find coming off of a comet, Wild 2 to be exact, olivine! Density of 3.27–3.37 g/cm3, Diopside 3.278 g/cm3 and Anorthite 2.72 - 2.75 g/cm3

So how'd they get .6 g/cm3

Lets' look at the impact dynamics of deep impact, shall we!

Initial results were surprising as the material excavated by the impact contained more dust and less ice than had been expected. The only models of cometary structure astronomers could positively rule out were the very porous models which had comets as loose aggregates of material. In addition, the material was finer than expected; scientists compared it to talcum powder rather than sand.[36] Other materials found while studying the impact included clays, carbonates, sodium, and crystalline silicates which were found by studying the spectroscopy of the impact.[11] Clays and carbonates usually require liquid water to form and sodium is rare in space.[37] Observations also revealed that the comet was about 75% empty space, and one astronomer compared the outer layers of the comet to the same makeup of a snow bank.[11] Astronomers have expressed interest in more missions to different comets to determine if they share similar compositions or if there are different materials found deeper within comets that were produced at the time of the solar system's formation
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75% Empty space eh!

Samples of Comet Wild 2 suggest it is made of rocky material, like an asteroid, rather than the fluffy dust expected of a comet. The object may be a refugee that formed in the asteroid belt before getting kicked to the chilly fringes of the solar system, or it might have formed in that frigid realm from material thrown out of the inner solar system, scientists say.
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Now, scientists have been surprised again as further study suggests Wild 2 is made mostly of material from the inner solar system, and that the object has a composition more like that of an asteroid than what was expected of a comet. The conclusion comes from a study led by Hope Ishii of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) in Livermore, California, US.

The team compared particles from Wild 2 with dust grains collected by experiments in Earth's upper atmosphere, whose trajectories suggest they come from comets.
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LINK

They smashed into a rock, you know, like an asteroid! :)

Like uncle Wal said
The Comet — Asteroid Link in the Electric Universe

I first wrote on this subject in a paper for the UK Society for Interdisciplinary Studies Chronology and Catastrophism Review 1988, Vol. X, titled, "Formation of Chondritic Meteorites and the Solar System":

“According to [the Electric Universe] scenario, comets, asteroids and meteorites have a common origin. It is not assumed that these bodies have anything to do with a highly problematical primordial solar nebula. Therefore, for example, the 'Oort Shell' hypothesis of comets surrounding the Solar System is considered an unnecessary fiction. Indeed, Professor Ray Lyttleton described the Oort Shell theory as 'a piece of trash.’
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On box RC!
 
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Sol88 said:
Comet wild 2

Nucleus parameters

* Dimensions: 5.5×4.0×3.3 km[4]
* Density: 0.6 g/cm³[5]
* Mass: 2.3 × 1013 kg[6]

Oh I see it's lighter than water, so it must be made of ice right? :rolleyes:
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It cannot be made of solid rock (obvious to a child) and so is not an asteroid.
It is lighter than water and so it is not a solid mass of ice.
What is left oh great genius Sol88 :rolleyes: ?

Your fails are getting more epic so: EPIC FAIL :jaw-dropp!

ETA: Hint: Read the citation [5] and porosity.
Hint 2: What is the density of snow?
 
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Tell me about 2060 Chiron, Reality check?

The visible and near-infrared spectrum of Chiron is neutral,[10] and is similar to that of C-type asteroids and the nucleus of Halley's comet.[11]
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snip

Cometary behaviour

In February 1988, at 12 AU from the Sun, Chiron brightened by 75 percent.[12] This is behaviour typical of comets but not asteroids. Further observations in April 1989 showed that Chiron had developed a cometary coma,[12] and a tail was detected in 1993.[10] Chiron differs from other comets in that water is not a major component of its coma, because it is too far from the sun for water to sublimate.[11]

At the time of its discovery, Chiron was close to aphelion, whereas the observations showing a coma were done closer to perihelion, perhaps explaining why no cometary behavior had been seen earlier. The fact that Chiron is still active likely means it has not been in this orbit that long.[8]

Chiron is officially designated as both a comet and an asteroid, an indication of the sometimes fuzzy dividing line between the two classes of object. The term proto-comet has also been used. Being at least 130 km in diameter, it is unusually large for a comet nucleus.

Since the discovery of Chiron, other centaurs have been discovered, and nearly all are currently classified as asteroids but are being observed for possible cometary behavior. 60558 Echeclus has displayed a cometary coma and now also has the cometary designation 174P/Echeclus. After passing perihelion in early 2008, centaur 52872 Okyrhoe significantly brightened.[13]
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RCworte
It cannot be made of solid rock (obvious to a child) and so is not an asteroid.
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NASA must be children then RC?
 
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Sol88 said:
Tell me about 2060 Chiron, Reality check?
snip

RCworte NASA must be children then RC?
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You really cannot read Sol88 so here is my reply in answer to your posting about the density (not visible and near-infrared spectrums) of a totally different comet (Wild 2 is not 2060 Chiron) again:
It cannot be made of solid rock (obvious to a child) and so is not an asteroid.
It is lighter than water and so it is not a solid mass of ice.
What is left oh great genius Sol88 :rolleyes: ?

Your fails are getting more epic so: EPIC FAIL :jaw-dropp!

ETA: Hint: Read the citation [5] and porosity.
Hint 2: What is the density of snow?
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Yet another EPIC FAIL :jaw-dropp!
 
Reality Check said:
You really cannot read Sol88 so here is my reply in answer to your posting about the density (not visible and near-infrared spectrums) of a totally different comet (Wild 2 is not 2060 Chiron) again:

Yet another EPIC FAIL :jaw-dropp!
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Explain Chiron's cometary behavior then RC?

Easy under EC, if Chiron like ALL comets, are more or less the same make up as asteroids!
 
tusenfem said:
Ah well, Tim Thompson, we have been there done that (here and on BAUT). We just get the handwaving and "predictions" from thundercrap, the magical EDM, the even more magical creation of water, etc. etc.

But don't expect Sol88 to give you anything real. He never gives real answers, only links to pretty pictures and press releases. He is just a troll.
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Prediction? what like Wal's?

ANOMALOUS X-RAYS

The comet is rushing toward the copper projectile at almost 23,000 mph, which will not give time for the copper projectile in the exceedingly thin cometary plasma to balance its electrical potential with that of the more negative comet nucleus.

If (and it's the biggest "if") Tempel 1 is sufficiently electrically active before impact, we may see the usual non-linear behavior of plasma when subjected to increasing electrical stress. That is, there will be a sudden electric discharge, or arc. An electric discharge between the comet cathode and the copper projectile anode will result in X-ray emission, just as in any X-ray machine on Earth. Such X-rays are easily identifiable and in large amounts would be anomalous for a mere impact.

So, before physical impact occurs, we may expect a sudden discharge between the comet nucleus and the copper projectile. It will have the characteristic light-curve of lightning, with rapid onset and exponential decay. The question is, will it be a mere spark or a powerful arc?

Whether due to impact or electric arc, positively charged copper ions may be expected to produce radiation by recombination with free electrons. A small proportion of that radiation may be in the x-ray region. But the spectrum and intensity curve for radiation from an impact should be quite different from the flash of an electric arc impinging on a copper anode.

The arc should also give a restricted, almost point, source for the radiation from the target sites on the impactor and the comet nucleus. This is quite different from anything expected from distributed explosion products.
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Predicted TWO flashes! :)

Which is confirmed, though the origins differ, one from a prediction, one from a guess!

FLASHES AND THE PLUME

As the impactor entered the nucleus, or shortly thereafter, a brilliant flash, lasting less than two tenths of a second, appeared probably as the impactor and part of Tempel 1 vaporized. The first flash was followed by a second presumably originating deeper within the comet. The second flash was brighter still and it momentarily saturated some pixels in the instruments on the flyby spacecraft.
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Deeper than 200m? Vaporized the probe? into a snowbank?
There was much more material in the curtain than expected indicating that the strength of the material lying within tens of meters of the comet's surface is very weak and powdery. Therefore the ejecting gas and dust are able to tear an unexpectedly great amount of material from the crater as it forms.
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Rc, Rc RC! <shakes head> (Gullible)



RC any links on that claim for narrow band X-Ray production!
 
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Sol88 said:
Care to name a couple of those several processes Reality check???
Namely what process ionizes your "ices"?
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Well, not being RC, but just to edumacate you a bit:

  • Absorption of (UV) radiation of the Sun: X + ν*-> X+ + e-
  • Collisions between particles: X + Y -> X+ + e- + Y, and various other possibilities
  • Charge exchange with solar wind ions: SW+ + X -> SW + X+

Sol88 said:
Is there enough "ice" on the comets nucleus to sustain the amount of OH observed?
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Yes

Sol88 said:
Why just the finely divided dust?
The list goes on....
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Why just the finely divided dust what? What is finely divided dust anyway?
 
Sol88 said:
Easy and consistent with EC

1 Are black from the arcs as well as the carbon produced!
2 Comets tail spectrum has more water than asteroids though not the comets nucleus
3 Shall we talk about Chiron
4 Comets are of a different charge than asteroids.
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1. Please show us evidence of this arcing and the EDM. Why did none of the experiments that flew through the region of interest for this process measure any of the "side effects" of this discharging? I have mentioned [rul=http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/1991/90JA02459.shtml]this paper by Laakso[/url] before, that there are indeed electric fields near the comet and such stuff. There is loads of interesting stuff happening in the coma, howerver, if there had been EDM they would most definitely measured it with their experiments.

2. This is not even a sentence! You mean to say that comet's nuclei have no water, however, why are there jets observed coming from the nucleus? Are those jets produced by EDM or something? Please show us that that can happen.

3. Okay, why don't you start explaining it, how it works exactly and no links to thundercrap please, because he does not know an explanation from an excrement.

4. Really, and how did you decide that, did you measure it?
 
Reality Check said:
Lets see if we can get this thread on the non-science of the electric comet to the second page before it dies a death.

For those EU proponent who still cannot grasp the concept of magnetic reconnection - there is evidence for it in comets: Tail disconnection events.
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And for those who want the gory details, they can read the paper by Vourlidas et al. (2007).

Methinks that the EC gang does not really keep up with literature, I am sure they have never read the paper by Laakso (see above) which is highly relevant.
 
Zeuzzz said:
These might be relevant (not sure, haven't looked into electric comet ideas much, just googled quickly for references):

http://thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf
POSTER PRESENTATION
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
33rd International Conference on Plasma Sciences (ICOPS)
Traverse City, Michigan
June 4-8, 2006

Possible Mechanism of Cometary Outbursts http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000mbos.work..177I
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Who want so search JREF for the discussion of this "poster" (with NO references whatsoever). This document has been pulled to shreds already, maybe DeiRenDopa knows where to find it. I might try to find it too later.
 
Now, I am puzzled!

Apparently, the only way that the EC can "explain" the electric nature of a comet is by misinterpreting and badmouthing the mainstream model. It is the old fallacy of letting mainstream defend all their claims, making no claims themselves and then if one little thingy does not fit, EC says "yeah! our model is correct." But ... there is no EC model! Nothing has been presented apart from handwaving arguments etc.

So, what I expect to get now, which I also asked in the 2nd message in this thread:

tusenfem said:
Just show me, Sol88 qualitative and quantitative how this is supposed to work. Not just tiny quotes from press releases, but the whole thingamajik.

Charging of the comet nucleus
EDM on a singly charged nucleus
Release of oxygen ions (most likely positively charged)
Reaction with the solar wind protons (also positively charged, possibly highly energetic)

Please show in detail that the amount of water group ions that is observed around a comet and in its tail can be produced by this mechanism.
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Show us the money, Sol88 and Zeuzzz, and don't forget that that "poster" by thundercrap is not a valid model. I want a detailed model presented here, and I want it now.
 
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