The Electric Comet theory

[Haig]

There's nothing fair about a straw man, Haig.

Sticks and stones ferd

What are you trying to say here, Haig? Your statement doesn't quite parse. Are you saying others have made the same criticism that that the mere appearance of of an object in an image doesn't negate measurements made using orbital mechanics, spectrophotometry, etc.? If so you are of course correct.

Seems quite clear to me ferd, try re-reading the last line slowwwly ... "The more electric discharge machining (EDM) by the JETS (at each close approach to the Sun) the BLACKER the Electric Comet nucleus will get ... until eventually ... as black as carbon"

If that doesn't do it for you try looking at the pretty pictures of Electric Comets nucleus burnt by EDM or this one

Citation from a primary source please ferd

Do your own reasearch ferd, it's been quoted by Sol88 a few times on this thread (scroll back) and from the Rosetta blogs

 

[ben m]

The more electric discharge machining (EDM) by the JETS (at each close approach to the Sun) the BLACKER the Electric Comet nucleus will get ... until eventually ... as black as carbon

Nope.

Wow, look at the totally-made-up extrapolation. You see something get "darker" under a weak process, and you guess that it gets darker and darker and darker forever---under conditions you never tested and don't understand? Of course you do. Guesswork is the only thing EC has ever done and you're doing it again.

I've done electrical discharge machining, Haig. It's not a blowtorch full of soot. It's a nice clean material-removal process. The color of a fresh EDM cut is the color of the parent material. (Indeed, your man Ransom wrote a whole paper about discharges in Bentham Open---discussed here---and not one of those systems was discolored. Not one.)

ETA: and maybe you and Sol88 need to return to the woodshed to figure out your message. Sol is harping on how the comet looks precisely like rock, silicates and all, and therefore it's definitely rock all the way down? You're telling us that electric discharge machining produces a blacker-than-carbon substance that doesn't look like rock? Make up your minds. Or don't, no one actually cares. But it's funny.

 

[ferd burfle]

Sol, why a 99%-off-topic link...

Apologies to Haig and Sol, I quoted Haig but addressed this post to Sol.

ferd

 

[tusenfem]

Nope.

Wow, look at the totally-made-up extrapolation. You see something get "darker" under a weak process, and you guess that it gets darker and darker and darker forever---under conditions you never tested and don't understand? Of course you do. Guesswork is the only thing EC has ever done and you're doing it again.

I've done electrical discharge machining, Haig. It's not a blowtorch full of soot. It's a nice clean material-removal process. The color of a fresh EDM cut is the color of the parent material. (Indeed, your man Ransom wrote a whole paper about discharges in Bentham Open---discussed here---and not one of those systems was discolored. Not one.)

ETA: and maybe you and Sol88 need to return to the woodshed to figure out your message. Sol is harping on how the comet looks precisely like rock, silicates and all, and therefore it's definitely rock all the way down? You're telling us that electric discharge machining produces a blacker-than-carbon substance that doesn't look like rock? Make up your minds. Or don't, no one actually cares. But it's funny.

so interesting!
now the jets are doing the edm instead of being created by them?

 

[Haig]

The more electric discharge machining (EDM) by the JETS (at each close approach to the Sun) the BLACKER the Electric Comet nucleus will get ... until eventually ... as black as carbon

Nope.

Wow, look at the totally-made-up extrapolation. You see something get "darker" under a weak process, and you guess that it gets darker and darker and darker forever---under conditions you never tested and don't understand? Of course you do. Guesswork is the only thing EC has ever done and you're doing it again.

I've done electrical discharge machining, Haig. It's not a blowtorch full of soot. It's a nice clean material-removal process. The color of a fresh EDM cut is the color of the parent material. (Indeed, your man Ransom wrote a whole paper about discharges in Bentham Open---discussed here---and not one of those systems was discolored. Not one.)

ETA: and maybe you and Sol88 need to return to the woodshed to figure out your message. Sol is harping on how the comet looks precisely like rock, silicates and all, and therefore it's definitely rock all the way down? You're telling us that electric discharge machining produces a blacker-than-carbon substance that doesn't look like rock? Make up your minds. Or don't, no one actually cares. But it's funny..

so interesting!
now the jets are doing the edm instead of being created by them?

That was always my understanding, tusenfem ...

ben m ... I think your mistake is taking the Alfvén First approach instead of the Second approach. We are not talking about doing an EDM "like" process in controlled conditions but in the REAL variable Space conditions.

I too have done EDM and EVERYTHING is very controlled

I can illustrate the electric burning it with similar process but only in the wild here on Earth

Look at this plasma / electrical blackening images ... HERE ... HERE ... HERE... HERE and HERE the majority of these examples are of ROCK.

What you also have to remember that the EDM "like" process in the Electric Comet hypothesis has been been built up over many thousand cycles around the Sun.

In the case of the mainstream comet model hypothesis it's billions of cycles around the Sun

 

[Haig]

Apologies to Haig and Sol, I quoted Haig but addressed this post to Sol.

ferd

I thought you were being cute. No problem

 

[tusenfem]

That was always my understanding, tusenfem ...

ben m ... I think your mistake is taking the Alfvén First approach instead of the Second approach. We are not talking about doing an EDM "like" process in controlled conditions but in the REAL variable Space conditions.

I too have done EDM and EVERYTHING is very controlled

I can illustrate the electric burning it with similar process but only in the wild here on Earth

Look at this plasma / electrical blackening images ... HERE ... HERE ... HERE... HERE and HERE the majority of these examples are of ROCK.

What you also have to remember that the EDM "like" process in the Electric Comet hypothesis has been been built up over many thousand cycles around the Sun.

In the case of the mainstream comet model hypothesis it's billions of cycles around the Sun

sorry but edm-"like" was never mentioned before, nor that jets were the actual edm-liking
seems like you're modifying your "model" on the go just to make it fit your misconceptions of real physics beit first or second approach nonsense.

 

[Haig]

sorry but edm-"like" was never mentioned before, nor that jets were the actual edm-liking
seems like you're modifying your "model" on the go just to make it fit your misconceptions of real physics beit first or second approach nonsense.

Gezz tusenfem,

Electric discharge machining (EDM) is a precision process ! You think THAT can be applied in Space to a comet ?

We use to call it "spark erosion" and if you don't set it up just right you can make a awful mess

So NO the EU / PC crowd are NOT modifying the Electric Comet hypothesis ... the "EDM like" process is just an analogy

The Electric Comet: The Elephant in NASA's Living Room? (my hilite)

Comet jets are electric discharges to the nucleus - the jets electrically machine the comet surface in a process similar to the industrial process known as spark discharge machining.

 

[ben m]

ben m ... I think your mistake is taking the Alfvén First approach instead of the Second approach. We are not talking about doing an EDM "like" process in controlled conditions but in the REAL variable Space conditions.

Sol: "Comets look like rock, so they're rock"
You: "No matter what comets look like, EDM probably did it somehow or other, who cares."

 

[Sol88]

Nope.

Wow, look at the totally-made-up extrapolation. You see something get "darker" under a weak process, and you guess that it gets darker and darker and darker forever---under conditions you never tested and don't understand? Of course you do. Guesswork is the only thing EC has ever done and you're doing it again.

I've done electrical discharge machining, Haig. It's not a blowtorch full of soot. It's a nice clean material-removal process. The color of a fresh EDM cut is the color of the parent material. (Indeed, your man Ransom wrote a whole paper about discharges in Bentham Open---discussed here---and not one of those systems was discolored. Not one.)

ETA: and maybe you and Sol88 need to return to the woodshed to figure out your message. Sol is harping on how the comet looks precisely like rock, silicates and all, and therefore it's definitely rock all the way down? You're telling us that electric discharge machining produces a blacker-than-carbon substance that doesn't look like rock? Make up your minds. Or don't, no one actually cares. But it's funny.

Ummmm......Yes rock(clays,carbonates, and silicates) all the way down, except for some areas on the surface where the soot (Tholins) have collected, this would also be mixed with dust.

Burned by a Dust Devil

In Mars’ thin and dry atmosphere, these arcs take the form of giant vortexes—miles-high dust devils. The electric currents powering these electric tornados burn the surface as they pass over it, leaving the characteristic trail of scorched soil. The Mars Orbiter Camera captured this bird’s eye view of a dust devil burning its way across the landscape and leaving behind a blackened path. (The shadow of the dust devil lies to the right of it.) Many other dark trails in the vicinity attest to the frequency of dust devils in this area.

Animated GIF of a pixel saturated dust devil (charged sheath vortex) base

If all those trails joined together, you would have a black surface!

BenM: I suppose that one interesting question for the EUers is:

Comets look like rock? No they don't. Comets are much darker than any mineral you will find on Earth, darker than the Moon, darker than asteroids, darker than metal. Darker than any weld spatter Don Scott can make in his garage.

You know what's about as dark as a comet? A powdery coating of organic molecules. That's the sort of thing you get after gentle heating of a dirty snowball. Can you show me how "discharge machining" of rock results in a surface blacker than coal?

Reference from NASA

So to recap and electric discharge can and will produce a blackened surface.

More evidence of the Comet Electric.

 

[ben m]

Electric discharge machining (EDM) is a precision process ! You think THAT can be applied in Space to a comet ?

You're acting like you know a lot about the differences between Electric Comet sparks and EDM sparks. Funny to hear you say that, given that Mr. Ransom keeps publishing these "papers" telling us the opposite---that spark damage photos look precisely like crater photos.

Hey, I have an idea! Why don't you tell us exactly what process you think is being applied to the comet?

What voltage? (More generally, what potential field?)
What current, for how much time? Driven by what impedance?
In what residual gas pressure and species?

Take your time, I'll wait.

 

[Sol88]

Off topic post


Not really off topic but when asking the same questions on the rosetta blog Q&A you get this in reply to asking the question i.e challenging the mainstream view:

Star Gazer says:
09/01/2015 at 14:06
Can these comments get moderation, please? The cranks with Electric Universe "beliefs" have hijacked the comments with LONG posts about paranoid nonsense. Considering that people read comment boards for a layperson's summary or to ask questions, this is hardly a service to ESA's audience to have electric universe CRANKS posting first always and with greatest rambling incoherently ".....plasma....density......those icy snowball scientists are thru.......!" People who are uninformed may read EU garbage comments and take them as evidence based scientific findings which they're not. Seriously, no one from ESA or the public for that matter bothers to post at http://www.thunderbolts.info cause its Crazy Town, so please moderate their presence away. They are free to submit their nonsense to any public journal and publish papers like everyone else. Why does the Rosetta board serve as an Electric Universe soapbox? Please moderate comments.

Touchy, eh? ordinary LAYPEOPLE may question the "Whippleites" paradigm and that would obviously be bad????

and the moderators one ESA Rosetta blog come back with this.

Some of our more active commenters seem to have already forgotten the rules highlighted in the first post of 2015!
We will not be approving any further comments that talk disrespectfully about scientists ‘patching’ data or falsifying it in any way to suit one theory or another.
Science and scientific peer review can be a lengthy process. Conclusions cannot simply be made overnight. Data need to be collected over a certain time period (be it weeks, months or even years) to be able to draw statistically meaningful conclusions. Papers covering the wide range of questions asked on this blog regarding various aspects of the nature of Comet 67P/C-G simply haven’t been published yet – but they will be, and we are all looking forward to seeing the results.

 

[Sol88]

Interesting read on water production from silicates first asked HERE by the scientist M.Volwerk

* I have not obtained an answer from either Sol88 or MM or Zeuzzz on how the water in a comet gets created from solar wind protons and nucleus oxygen ions

....


Detection of solar wind-produced water in irradiated rims on silicate minerals

Significance
Whether water is produced by solar wind (SW) radiolysis has been debated for more than four decades. In this paper, we exploit the high spatial resolution of electron microscopy and sensitivity of valence electron energy-loss spectroscopy to de- tect water (liquid or vapor) in vesicles within (SW-produced) space-weathered rims on interplanetary dust particle (IDP) surfaces. Water in the rims has implications for the origin of water on airless bodies like the Moon and asteroids, the de- livery of water to the surfaces of terrestrial planets, and the production of water in other astrophysical environments. In particular, water and organic carbon were likely delivered si- multaneously by the high flux of IDPs accreted by the early Earth and other terrestrial planets.

further

Prior studies of the VEEL spectra from liquid water and their degradation byproducts are sparse: Water dissociates in the electron beam, forming transient species that include H+, O•, OH•, H•, H2, H2O2, and HO2• (15–17). VEELS of molecular oxygen and hydrogen, which exhibit features at 13 eV and 15 eV, respectively, show that these peak positions are perturbed by formation of other stable molecules (e.g., CO, CO2), which leads to an increase in the binding energy due to charge screening of the positive oxygen core (24). We attribute variations in the VEEL spectra water features to similar effects because, in addition to water, the rims and vesicles almost cer- tainly contain Si-OH and possibly other species (e.g., carbon compounds) that were recoil-implanted into the rims by the SW.

Oh but not on comets because we KNOW they have ICE... but not

The sensitive telescope's spectrometer instrument detected dust particles finer than human hair, and discovered the presence of silicates (crushed rock or sand), carbonates (chalk), smectite (clay), metal sulfides (like fool's gold), amorphous carbon (soot) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (carbon-rich molecules found on barbecue grills and in automobile exhaust on Earth).

LINK

 

[Sol88]

Just show me, Sol88 qualitative and quantitative how this is supposed to work. Not just tiny quotes from press releases, but the whole thingamajik.

Charging of the comet nucleus
EDM on a singly charged nucleus
Release of oxygen ions (most likely positively charged)
Reaction with the solar wind protons (also positively charged, possibly highly energetic)

Please show in detail that the amount of water group ions that is observed around a comet and in its tail can be produced by this mechanism.

Hoping to hear back from you soon with the math and chemical reactions to back yourself up.

Yours truly
Tusenfem

Sorry it took so long Tusenfem.

 

[Sol88]

Ah well, Tim Thompson, we have been there done that (here and on BAUT). We just get the handwaving and "predictions" from thundercrap, the magical EDM, the even more magical creation of water, etc. etc.

But don't expect Sol88 to give you anything real. He never gives real answers, only links to pretty pictures and press releases. He is just a troll.

Would you think it would be possible to retract that statement, Tusenfem?

 

[Sol88]

I would not call Sol88 an actual internet troll because if he is then he has been a hugely incompetent one.
I would call him ignorant since he has little knowledge of science.
I would call him gullible since he is so easily taken in by obvious non-science web sites that are basically selling idiotic books (thundercrap).

I do agree that he seems to have an unhealthy obsession with pretty pictures.

Is that an Ad hom???

It is not just your mistake - it is the fact that you were stupid enough to persist in it after it was first pointed.

Now all you are doing is compounding it again by stating what everyone already knows . The density of asteroids is greater than the density of comets and so the electric comet idea is wrong.

Guess what Sol88: Kalliope is an asteroid!

EPIC FAIL once again Sol88

Are you calling me an stupid??

Are you that dumb Sol88?
The model predicts that comets will have densities less than water and much less than rock.
The observations are that comets do have densities less than water and much less than rock.

In this case you state the density foe 19P/Borrellyyourself: Density: 0.3 g/cm³[2]
The rest is just your usual derail into things you do not understand.

You have disproved the electric comet idea !

When the data is finally released on the actual comet density RC


That's the one your really gunna choke 'ol mate along with the whole mainstream gravity is king crowd

So far 69P is not porous or filled with voids but has a sooty-dusty surface layer over "hard stuff" but were still not 1005 on what the hard stuff is, you say hidden sintered ice, we say rock, like an asteroid.

 

[Sol88]

Um, there are a lot of reasons to think that comets are not solid rocks. But even so, there is no reason to assume that comets are homogenous either.

As too comets being black, what are aromatic carbons?

Sol88, I asked you before and I ask you again.

1. If comets are rocky and they are solely showing the coma and tail as a result of a disapation of an accumulated electrical caharge, why is the tail longer in many cases after the comet approaches the sun. (Any charge should be disapeted by then and decreasing, not increasing.)

PAH's amorphous carbon (soot) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (carbon-rich molecules found on barbecue grills and in automobile exhaust on Earth).


Asteroids, Comets, Planets: Cut From Same Cloth?

Lisse and his team later compared their Tempel 1 data to observations of comet Hale Bopp made by the Infrared Space Observatory in 1997. Although Hale Bopp did not show any of the iron-rich olivine silicates found in Tempel 1, team members did find many chemical similarities, like ice made of water, carbonates, sulfides, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and other types of silicates.

 

[Sol88]

Another nice paper but behind a paywall

Sputtering Effects and Water Formation on an Amorphous Silicate Surface

We studied the formation of deuterated water on an amorphous silicate surface held at low temperature (10 K < T < 40 K). The surface is first characterized by using Ar+ ion bombardment, and preferential sputtering of oxygen is found. Sputtering creates oxygen vacancies in the surface region that can be filled by deposition of atomic oxygen. The conditions used in the experiment are meant to make it relevant to the study of the initial stages of water formation on dust grains in interstellar space. By changing the D/O ratio of atomic beams of deuterium and oxygen at thermal energy and the temperature of the sample during deposition, we show that the routes to the formation of D2O2 can be untangled and, under certain circumstances, the net yield of D2O2 can be suppressed. The formation efficiency for water and other molecules is then estimated.

Lose an O and you have D₂O

Most of the water that sustains life on Earth probably came from asteroids rather than comets. That is the conclusion of scientists working on the Rosetta space mission, who have measured the levels of hydrogen isotopes in the comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko. The ratio of deuterium to hydrogen in the comet is much greater than the ratio found on Earth, which suggests that comets supplied Earth with only a small fraction of its water.

LINK

The first concrete finding from Rosetta... ouch!!

ROSETTA FUELS DEBATE ON ORIGIN OF EARTH’S OCEANS

Seems electric to me...comets are an electric discharge phenomena

as stated previously

At least mainstream has a model, EC is just blah



Please explain it to us then, how electricity can create a different H/D ratio as similar EDM processes on Earth when the Grand Canyon was created and the oceans filled.



Nope, in other comets the ratio was the same as on Earth. But then Mars and Earth are not the same either.
But I am glad that EC is soooo relaxed and not surprised by anything that has been found by Rosetta (except for the missing signatures of EDM of course, but let's not go into that tiny detail).



No, I have not seen any surprises from the EC fantasts here on ISF.
But then, as there is no EC model, there is no need to be surprised about anything, now is there?

So. where is the evidence for the EDM, all those discharges that are taking place at and around the comet? Where are the signatures in the fields instruments?

 

[tusenfem]

Gezz tusenfem,

Electric discharge machining (EDM) is a precision process ! You think THAT can be applied in Space to a comet ?

We use to call it "spark erosion" and if you don't set it up just right you can make a awful mess

So NO the EU / PC crowd are NOT modifying the Electric Comet hypothesis ... the "EDM like" process is just an analogy

The Electric Comet: The Elephant in NASA's Living Room? (my hilite)

i don't know haigy, why not ask you ec fantasy friends at thunderdolts who claim edm is producing water somehow

 

[tusenfem]

Interesting read on water production from silicates first asked HERE by the scientist M.Volwerk ....


Detection of solar wind-produced water in irradiated rims on silicate minerals



further




Oh but not on comets because we KNOW they have ICE... but not

The sensitive telescope's spectrometer instrument detected dust particles finer than human hair, and discovered the presence of silicates (crushed rock or sand), carbonates (chalk), smectite (clay), metal sulfides (like fool's gold), amorphous carbon (soot) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (carbon-rich molecules found on barbecue grills and in automobile exhaust on Earth).

LINK

wow, your text from 2009!!
and i guess you have forgotten that we have discussed water creation in silicates by the solar wind on the moon, the process is not the big problem, the production RATE is.