The Electric Comet theory

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Exactly!

Plow walls are very hard as well, snow drifts like sand dunes,etc...

You have to laugh :D

The EU / PC crowd look at a picture of Electric Comet 67P and see ROCK and you lot have a temper tantrum because we dare suggest it looks like ROCK.

Well the mainstream "see" snow drifts and now, in a new paper they "see" lots they "need" to be there including frozen SEAS too and a very imaginative story to "explain" the erratic bolders ... :D



Check the PDF ...

Rosetta images of Comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko 1: Near-surface icy terrain similar to comet Tempel-1 Max Wallis1 and N. Chandra Wickramasinghe1,2,3
The image at higher resolution on the right shows the sea curving away into shadow approaching the terminator at bottom left. The plateau at the top right corner (semi-circular) is a few 100m higher than the sea and appears to have shed debris at the cliff-foot. (ESA/Rosetta/MPS for OSIRIS Team)

An icy plain would develop a protective sublimation regolith of order 10-cm thick, with strength of a cold-welded carbonaceous crust (Wickramasinghe et al. 2009). The boulders up to 70m in size, seen also on comet Hartley-2
(Fig. 3), are not associated with eroding cliffs or craters, but may be ejecta generated by large meteorites impacting compact frozen terrain. In the very low gravity, boulders ejected at a fraction of 1m/s would readily reach ~100m from the impact crater, and could land perched on elevated surfaces as seen in these images. Most of the terrain would be too weak to allow them to roll further, giving little accumulation in valleys. Those that stand proud indicate stronger refrozen terrain or that the surface they land on (and crush) sublimates more quickly. Dirty ice-boulders develop dark protective sublimation crusts so have a long lifetime on 67P’s distant orbit. Brighter
pixels atop some boulders (mid Fig. 2) suggest optically-active crystalline component in the surface material, so the boulders may be sublimating slowly while older regolith suppresses sublimation of the open plain.
 
How's that match up with the predictions over at the thunderbolts Haig.

No evidence of subsurface ice at the sources of the jets;
Virtually no interstellar dust, the second component of the “dirty snowball” theory;
Discovery of minerals on the nucleus that are typical of planetary surfaces within the
Habitable zone of the Sun; characteristic concentration of plasma jet activity eating away at the cliffs of elevated terrain and the margins of well-defined depressions;
Measurable retreat of active cliff regions in the wake of this activity; and
The presence of unexpected electric fields within the coma and/or close to the comet nucleus, possibly even disrupting the anticipated landing on the surface. This could occur on or after touch down because the sharp metallic edges of the spacecraft make an ideal focus for a diffuse plasma discharge, which would disrupt communications and possibly interfere with spacecraft electronics.

My impression, there are more ticks than crosses!!! :)
 
Oh and great find Haig!

Really goes to show the trouble mainstream are in because of the corner they've painted themselves into!

Funny if it was not costing billions of dollars(euros) and feeding the public porky pies!
 
How's that match up with the predictions over at the thunderbolts Haig.



My impression, there are more ticks than crosses!!! :)

Oh and great find Haig!

Really goes to show the trouble mainstream are in because of the corner they've painted themselves into!

Funny if it was not costing billions of dollars(euros) and feeding the public porky pies!

Yip Sol88, it's definitely much more in favour of the thunderbolts crowd, predictions confirmed & predictions pending :)

In the PDF the mainstream know they are in trouble with their comet theory hypothesis :D
Introduction
The old comet model of frozen elementary gases maybe combined with H2O in clathrates and condensed in the early solar system, has not been tenable since the 1986 missions to comet Halley.
Comets evidently have high fractions of carbonaceous and mineral solids, and are well-processed bodies, with a geology that reflects their past and particularly any of their orbits within the inner solar system. They cannot be viewed as an onion, with layer by layer peeling off on perihelion passes when solar heating sets in
 
In the PDF the mainstream know they are in trouble with their comet theory hypothesis

Introduction
The old comet model of frozen elementary gases maybe combined with H2O in clathrates and condensed in the early solar system, has not been tenable since the 1986 missions to comet Halley.
Comets evidently have high fractions of carbonaceous and mineral solids, and are well-processed bodies, with a geology that reflects their past and particularly any of their orbits within the inner solar system. They cannot be viewed as an onion, with layer by layer peeling off on perihelion passes when solar heating sets in

So you cite a mainstream paper, which says that the "dirty snowball" was no longer tenable after the giotto images in 1986, something I have been saying ALL THE TIME HERE, to support your EC view of mainstream, which insists it is still a dirty snowball.
 
You have to laugh :D

The EU / PC crowd look at a picture of 67P and see ROCK and you lot have a temper tantrum because we dare suggest it looks like ROCK.
(link spam deleted)

Haig, do try to present objections to the ech honestly. No one to my knowledge has said the pictures don't look like rock. We, as you know full well, object to your LLAB logic that asserts if it looks like rock, it must be rock.

ferd
 
(link spam deleted)

Haig, do try to present objections to the ech honestly. No one to my knowledge has said the pictures don't look like rock. We, as you know full well, object to your LLAB logic that asserts if it looks like rock, it must be rock.

ferd


So, looks like rock, hard rock, has a make up like rock and is rocky like but not rock???

Why? because of the comets over all density is less than water :confused:
 
So you cite a mainstream paper, which says that the "dirty snowball" was no longer tenable after the giotto images in 1986, something I have been saying ALL THE TIME HERE, to support your EC view of mainstream, which insists it is still a dirty snowball.

So, again Tusenfem IYHO what are comets?
 
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/12/18/updates-from-agu/

Robin Sherman says:
19/12/2014 at 01:03

Having seen all the presentations that were actually shown, four are still not viewable and one was cancelled, I thought I would outline the key things that were common conclusions. A lot of results just defined boundaries or the range of results and some did not match existing models or experimental data closely enough to give exact conclusions. The majority of the Philae reports amounted to a list of what data was collected and how they might be able to use it.
The Northern "Duckiesphere" currently in Summer is way more active than the "Dark Side". The detection of metal ions like Sodium, Magnesium, Zinc, Iron is limited to nighttime observations and is thought to be due to sputtering from the Solar Wind and Cosmic Rays.

They are not seen during the day, because cometary activity produces a coma containing gas, ions, charged particles and dust that physically and magnetically shields the surface from the Solar Wind.
Activity is directly correlated to the amount of sunlight incident on a surface, but the neck areas and the north polar plain are more active than the head and body lobes due to a thinner layer of insulation. These more active areas contain fewer organics. The majority of the surface layer away from the active regions contains between 5 and 7% organic material, with the highest amounts on the sides of the lobes where there is a lot more exposed solid material. The nature of the organics is still not known, one fit to the data suggests a mixture of a neutral black material with 99.5% Tholins and 0.5% Water. Another result suggests that it is not all Tholins and is likely a mixture of Carbon, Tholins, Low Iron content silicate minerals and various Sulphides.

The consensus seems to be that in the flatter plains where the surface appears to be covered in a dust blanket, like at the first touchdown point, there is a top ice free layer of friable, porous, gravel and dust about 1cm thick made up of low iron minerals, silicates, organics and Carbon. Below that the material starts to contain volatile ices, the amount increasing with depth. This mixed ice/dust/organics layer varies, but is estimated to be 10 to 20cm normally, but may vary. Beneath this is a hard layer of sintered ice/dust/organics, which although hard is also brittle as evidenced by the shards seen in the ROLIS images.

Sulphur is present in significant amounts and is usually found in the areas where Water is coming from, but also from a few areas where very little Water is seen. Although visually the comet is pretty homogeneous, chemically it seems not. Water tends to be produced in very variable amounts related to the time of day and position on the comet, whereas Carbon Dioxide emission seems to be more constant. The ratio of CO2/H2O is on average about 7%. The thermal properties of the top dust layer suggest up until now outgassing is not coming from the harder sub surface layer.

The CONSERT talk was limited and the second one cancelled, presumably because Philae has not been located. The data is clear and of good quality, but the only conclusion is that the shape of the signal peak indicates very little or no scattering from internal surfaces, meaning the comet is not currently made up of metre or two sized planetesimals, but is a continuous solid.

Organics that have been identified include C2, C3, C4 compounds and Benzene. Other results indicate Amines, Benzoic Acids, Ketones and Esters are probably present as well. Dust particles from the comet are larger than expected, but are very irregular, conglomerates of very loosely bound material which falls apart on contact. More solid grains have been examined which although only micron size look like mini comets, with planes, pits and holes. They have also been seen to move once trapped in the instrument. This was explained as being their light weight, but sublimating gas creating a frictionless layer underneath them likely helps.

The surface layer at Agilkia was revealed in all it glory by the ROLIS images. Hopefully those images will be available here soon. This was the most informative and revealing presentation shown. Analysis was done of the particle sizes and the surface seems to be made of a sort of pea gravel 1 or 2 cm in size with larger pieces of broken cryorock mixed in. Hollows and depressions around a metre in size along with small ledges and elevation changes in the 10s of cm range. Little tiny landslides of little pebbles, but little sign of dust except at the base of the 5m Cryobolder close to the touchdown point. It would appear that the surface layer material is very much like a type of aerogel, it holds it shape perfectly until disturbed and then just disintegrates into a fine powder. This is what was seen in both MIDAS and COSIMA. Unfortunately the dust measuring device on Philae has so far only registered 1 confirmed hit.

The team seem even more confident that Philae will survive and be able to do more science. It is clear from these presentations that there is lots of revealing data available, there are vast amounts of it and much of it requires some new algorithms and models to interpret, especially the Philae data. An amazing job by everyone involved. I should also add that the speakers were way more entertaining and interesting than many of the others here.

So most of what we learned in the presentations that were shown, had already been deduced by ourselves or explained by team members here and this just added confirmation that many peoples combined educated guesses were right. The talks showing OSIRIS data and explanations of the comet morphology were not streamed and information from the plasma and magnetic field experiments were not shown. Hopefully some sort of apology or explanation from the ESA team will be forthcoming to explain this.


Food for thought.
 
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I suppose that one interesting question for the EUers is:

Comets look like rock? No they don't. Comets are much darker than any mineral you will find on Earth, darker than the Moon, darker than asteroids, darker than metal. Darker than any weld spatter Don Scott can make in his garage.

You know what's about as dark as a comet? A powdery coating of organic molecules. That's the sort of thing you get after gentle heating of a dirty snowball. Can you show me how "discharge machining" of rock results in a surface blacker than coal?
 
I suppose that one interesting question for the EUers is:

Comets look like rock? No they don't. Comets are much darker than any mineral you will find on Earth, darker than the Moon, darker than asteroids, darker than metal. Darker than any weld spatter Don Scott can make in his garage.

You know what's about as dark as a comet? A powdery coating of organic molecules. That's the sort of thing you get after gentle heating of a dirty snowball. Can you show me how "discharge machining" of rock results in a surface blacker than coal?


Sure,

Craters in the laboratory

Notice also that the ground appears burnt or discolored where the discharge was strongest and the craters the densest -- not unlike the surface of Mars and other rocky bodies in the solar system


The more electric discharge machining (EDM) by the JETS (at each close approach to the Sun) the BLACKER the Electric Comet nucleus will get ... until eventually ... as black as carbon ;)
 

Yes, indeed

This comment is also food for thought and tragic state of events for science too :(

Stu says: 19/12/2014 at 13:42
ESA has no need to apologise for the continuing lack of OSIRIS image, because they have no influence over the release of OSIRIS images, or over the team itself. The OSIRIS team is essentially - or at least sees itself as - running a totally different space mission, independant from ROSETTA. Having hitched a ride to the comet onboard a spacecraft funded by the public and the countries of Europe, the OSIRIS team now feels no obligation to, and has absolutely no interest At All in, sharing its images with the media or the world at large. This is disgraceful and after ESA has made such HUGE strides in recent years re Outreach and media relations, having successfully shaken off the old image of a space agency which is very poor at Outreach, the OSIRIS team, with its selfish and arrogant image hording, is now damaging ESA's public image. To say they are "protecting their science" by not publishing images, and then to show those images to halls packed to bursting point with fellow scientists, many of them rivals, shows just what contempt they have for the space enthusiast community and the public at large. One can only hope that future ESA missions insist that the science teams,. and their PIs, are, under their contracts, obliged to share their results more generously, because this situation is just not acceptable. The OSIRIS team told us they would be releasing an image a week, which everyone agreed was pathetic, but better than nothing. As it is, we've had one image from the OSIRIS team since landing day. They are laughing at us, plain and simple.
 
(link spam deleted)

Haig, do try to present objections to the ech honestly. No one to my knowledge has said the pictures don't look like rock. We, as you know full well, object to your LLAB logic that asserts if it looks like rock, it must be rock.

ferd

I do try to be fair ferd.

But if you really want to improve your knowledge of those that doubted the pictures looked like rock on this thread then just scroll back. I did a quick scan back to page 86 and counted around half a dozen snide posts LLA Bunny Rock style :eek:

Glad you agree that the 67P images look like ROCK ... even the ROSETTA team thought ROCK LIKE but not ROCK :D

After ALL it's just pointing out that ROCK like comet images supports this view ...

thunderbolts said:
Comets are not made out of water and ice; they are made out of rock.

They discharge a plasma coma due to the rapidly changing electrical field they are moving through.

Since they spend most of their time in the outer solar system, they acquire a charge relative to that environment. As it approaches the Sun’s electrical field, it has to equalize its charge rapidly which causes the discharging we see as comet tails.


I see observers of bright Electric Comet Lovejoy have noticed it seems like it's starting to lose its tail due to our Electric Sun activity ;)

MAGNETIC STORM ON COMET LOVEJOY?

Last night, Italian photographer Rolando Ligustri used a remotely-controlled telecope in Spain to capture this 'plasma blob' billowing down the tail, away from the comet's core:


A bit like that tail losing event in 2007 to Electric Comet Encke

The Sun Rips off a Comet's Tail
"We were speechless when we saw this," says Angelos Vourlidas of the Naval Research Lab in Washington, D.C. "I kept playing the movie over and over."
 


Sol, why a 99%-off-topic link about crater formation on planets and moons? Do you think anyone's going to take those dark smudges seriously when your "researcher" doesn't provide any information about how they were produced? An article trying to convince scientists probably would have included details like the composition of the substrate, an indication of the scale of the image, etc. Real science isn't afraid to supply details that allow for critical evaluation. Real science anticipates and welcomes review. Who is it ech/EU proponents are trying to convince? Surely not scientists.

ferd
 
So you cite a mainstream paper, which says that the "dirty snowball" was no longer tenable after the giotto images in 1986, something I have been saying ALL THE TIME HERE, to support your EC view of mainstream, which insists it is still a dirty snowball.

Yeah yeah yeah, so you claim .... but mainstream wants "it all ways" so it seems !

So ... the "Dirty Snowball" comet that sublimates at each pass around the Sun, peeling like an onion, isn't tenable but in that same mainstream paper HERE has ... (my bold)

Dirty ice-boulders develop dark protective sublimation crusts so have a long lifetime on 87P’s distant orbit : may penetrate the protective crust into underlying ice. : An icy plain would develop a protective sublimation regolith of order 10-cm thick : Quiescent outgassing such as from 67P in July 2014 at a heliocentric distance of 3.9 AU is evidence of near-surface ice under a crust : in the furrows, cracks in ice (sea or craters) or at the feet of exposed rocks/boulders.


The "Dirty ice-bolders" are the funniest :D

So what IS the latest incarnation of the mainstream comet model hypothesis ?

By contrast the Electric Comet hypothesis is STILL on course without ANY need for a ad-hoc re-hash re-think :D

Even for the ancient planet size electric comets :p
 
I do try to be fair feed.


There's nothing fair about a straw man, Haig.

But if you really want to improve your knowledge of those that doubted the pictures looked like rock on this thread then just scroll back. I did a quick scan back to page 86 and counted around half a dozen snide posts LLA Bunny Rock style :eek:


What are you trying to say here, Haig? Your statement doesn't quite parse. Are you saying others have made the same criticism that that the mere appearance of of an object in an image doesn't negate measurements made using orbital mechanics, spectrophotometry, etc.? If so you are of course correct.

Glad you agree that the 67P images look like ROCK ... even the ROSETTA team thought ROCK LIKE but not ROCK :D


Citation from a primary source please


ferd
 
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