The Electric Comet theory

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There are papers on ADS

Mmmm....not many on cometary double layers, plenty on dusty plasma and double layers.

Were they not EXPECTED, even in mainstreams "dirty snowball"?

you put double layers on a comet and it's a different kettle of fish wrt cometary jets, no Tusenfem?
 
Mmmm....not many on cometary double layers, plenty on dusty plasma and double layers.

Were they not EXPECTED, even in mainstreams "dirty snowball"?

you put double layers on a comet and it's a different kettle of fish wrt cometary jets, no Tusenfem?

Why don't you tell us, Sol88? How do the double layers form around the comet, what is their structure, and what effect do they have?

You won't answer these questions, of course, because you really don't know. You don't actually understand double layers, you just wave the term around like a magic charm, hoping to ward off the evil spirits of mainstream science. Or if you prefer a different metaphor, the underpants gnome method of science:
1) Double layers
2) ???
3) Electric Universe/Plasma Cosmology/Electric Comet/Velikovsky
 
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Mmmm....not many on cometary double layers, plenty on dusty plasma and double layers.

Were they not EXPECTED, even in mainstreams "dirty snowball"?

you put double layers on a comet and it's a different kettle of fish wrt cometary jets, no Tusenfem?

put comet in title
put double layer in abstract
double layers are rare breed, though

I don't know about kettle of fish, don't you think that that would depend on where the double layer is, how strong the double layer is, etc.

Just got to love these immediate assumptions of EU-tians, if you have a DL then everything is solved.
Dear Sol, please explain us how this double layer is created, set up, and what it is doing to the jets.
 
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Good morning again Haig.
So are they rock or not ?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32136&d=1417614618[/qimg]

Electric or sublimating ?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21042&d=1297447762[/qimg]

The Jets can settle this ! More data from 67P required ! Why Explore Comets?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_382365493ebb4dcde0.jpg[/qimg]
Thanks again for pointing me - and other ISF members - to the lack of attributions in Thornhill&Talbott (2006).

You having alerted me to this, I checked this post of yours. And I find that you have not provided a source for the three images in it. Presumably you did not create these yourself, so ...

Would you please cite your sources?
 
Good morning again, Haig.
Yes tusenfem, it was an interesting read, well that is, what I could read in the few preview pages allowed ... but I won't be buying the book. Not only because of the price :eye-poppi I was quoted on-line £108 / $165 / Euro 138 ... that's way too high for what is (imho) only a mainstream magnetic version of the electric comet hypothesis but without naming a plasma sheath, double layers, charge or mentioning too much about electric effects.

Worse than that ... they appear to be trying to "reinvent the wheel", so to speak. We already know from Plasma (physics) in lab experiments and peer reviewed papers that charged bodies in a plasma produce Shocks or double layers, Electric fields and circuits as well as forming a Cellular structure.

There is no reason NOT to apply this science to real Space Plasma but , of course, only with Hannes Alfvén Second Approach.

ALL charged bodies in the Solar System have Plasma Sheaths around them ... from the Sun ... to the Planets ... to Comets.

We should recognise the common origin of these phenomena and stop treating them separately and inventing new jargon to describe the same effects Plasma (physics) has already named in the lab.


Review of recent laboratory double layer experiments


Laboratory and Space Experiments as a Key to the Plasma Universe.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_382365493ebdc76107.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_382365493ec146d088.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_3823654a9a9a15c700.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_3823654a9a9af7332b.gif[/qimg]
I'm jumping ahead a bit, but this post of yours also seems to contain unattributed images.

Would you please state/cite the source(s) of the four images in this post of yours?
 
So are they rock or not ?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32136&d=1417614618[/qimg]

Electric or sublimating ?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21042&d=1297447762[/qimg]

The Jets can settle this ! More data from 67P required ! Why Explore Comets?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_382365493ebb4dcde0.jpg[/qimg]

Good morning again Haig.

Thanks again for pointing me - and other ISF members - to the lack of attributions in Thornhill&Talbott (2006).

You having alerted me to this, I checked this post of yours. And I find that you have not provided a source for the three images in it. Presumably you did not create these yourself, so ...

Would you please cite your sources?


Not too hard, Haig, and when you do find the source please take note that at least the first image is copyrighted.

Hint: tineye.com is your friend


The ech proponents seem to share with 911 conspiracy nuts the ability to determine the composition of unknown materials just by viewing digital images of the objects. Just think of all the money being wasted by fancy-pants scientists on spectrometers! :roll eyes:

Haig, there are some areas of the comet that appear smooth bright white; by your "logic" I would be justified in concluding that those are water ice, would I not?

ferd
 
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Good morning again, Haig.
Gezz someone doesn't understand it has to be a charged rock ! :p

The Electric Comet PDF
A comet on an elongated orbit spends most of its time far from the Sun and acquires a charge in balance with the voltage at that distance. But when a comet speeds inward for a quick spin around the Sun, the voltage of the comet becomes increasingly out of balance with that nearer the Sun—a situation leading to high-energy discharge.
Thanks for this.

Assuming Talbott&Thornhill (2006) is indeed a primary source re the ech^, and assuming that Thornhill (2007) - which is behind a paywall - does not contradict this, comets *having to be* charged is a derivation, or prediction, not a core assumption (of course, in the ech, comets do *have to be* rocks).

And this passage is a kinda/sorta derivation.

Let's rephrase the main part of this derivation, to make it more consistent with the two key ech assumptions (if you feel this re-statement is in error in any significant way, please say so, and provide suggestions to correct it):

"A homogeneous rock in an approximately elliptical orbit around the Sun spends most of its time near aphelion and acquires a charge that is in equilibrium with the radial, weak, Sun-centered electric field at that distance. But as such a homogeneous rock moves towards perihelion, the charge it had near aphelion becomes increasingly out of equilibrium with the radial, weak, Sun-centered electric field ..."

This derivation/conclusion is open to questioning and challenge; better though, it is much closer to being objective - and independently verifiable - than the original.

For example, we can ask questions like "for realistic weak, radial, Sun-centered electric fields, how long would it take a homogeneous rock to acquire a charge that is in equilibrium with the field?" That's too broad and too ambiguous, of course, but is easily narrowed and tightened; e.g. "how long" could be expressed as something like "what range of duration would be characteristic?", and "a homogeneous rock" could be constrained by postulating some characteristic composition and size.

However, there's something rather important that's missing; namely, the interplanetary medium, or the solar wind.

Given that the electrical theorists who are the (apparent) authors/creators of the ech are very big on plasmas, it might be reasonable to assume - in the absence of something in a primary source! - that the ech includes the solar wind.

If so, then our questions about the derivation can be modified somewhat; e.g. "for realistic weak, radial, Sun-centered electric fields, and a realistic interplanetary medium, how long would it take a homogeneous rock to acquire a charge that is in equilibrium with the field?"

Are you OK with this (so far)?

^ despite the fact that it refers to the "Electric Comet Model", a characterization which David Talbott himself admits is incorrect
 
Good morning, Reality Check.
That Miles Mathis guy is a typical internet physics crank but very productive (5,513 PDF pages!). He touts his books on that web page but the chapter titles alone will tell anyone (except maybe Haig!) how bad they are, e.g.
* Angular Velocity and Angular Momentum. Both current equations are shown to be false
* The Equation v = v0 + at is False.
* A Critique of Einstein's Original Paper. Here I attack Einstein line for line, using "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" (Annalen der Physik, 1905) as my text.
* Why the Transforms of Special Relativity are not Symmetrical.
* A Break in the Pioneer Case.
* The Perihelion Precession of Mercury. A long critique of the historical problem, showing the major errors of Einstein and others.
As I said in a couple of posts upthread, in response to Haig's, I think Miles Mathis is an artist. And he has no intent to do mathematics or science; rather, he playfully uses words and ideas from mathematics and science to create a somewhat novel form of word art (or perhaps it's a kind of performance art?).

To the extent that people - such as Haig, and apparently you - are 'fooled/conned/taken in' by his art, and mistake it for mathematics or science, he is a successful artist.

Just my opinion, of course, but I haven't seen him try to promote his work in even fringe science journals ...
 
I've got a question for the ECH advocates:

Is there some aspect of ECH theory which actually precludes the formation of kilometer-scale objects in the outer solar system that contain lots of ice?
 
Not too hard, Haig, and when you do find the source please take note that at least the first image is copyrighted.

Hint: tineye.com is your friend

Thanks ferd, I do normally give sources in my posts, not sure why I didn't that time, too much of a rush probably, to err is human.

My "understanding" is that images in the "public domain" can be used on forums like this under the "copyright fair usage" guidelines ... with or without quoting the source.

That image you cite as copyrighted can be found (along with a lot of others) by putting "comet 67P" into Google images and hitting the return key. Seems like the "public domain" to me !

Interesting story. You know the video Episode 3 Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Electric Comet (Full Documentary) on YouTube.

Well it was pulled off because of ’a single complaint of copyright infringement by astronomer Travis Rector at the University of Alaska’.

It was put back up a short time later because of "copyright fair usage" or so I understand. The story is HERE

The ech proponents seem to share with 911 conspiracy nuts the ability to determine the composition of unknown materials just by viewing digital images of the objects. Just think of all the money being wasted by fancy-pants scientists on spectrometers! :roll eyes:

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck then it probably is ... Electric Comet 67P ... the duck shaped comet :)

Well ferd to be serious for a minute ... this video gives a clue to your puzzle that you should consider ...

WHAT IF? Asking the Dangerous Questions with Tom Wilson

Haig, there are some areas of the comet that appear smooth bright white; by your "logic" I would be justified in concluding that those are water ice, would I not?

ferd

Nope .. that by "my" logic would indicate overexposure or instrument saturation. Seeing ice on a comet is rare. I think it was comet Temple 1 that had a light sprinkling of ice in a small area, thought to be fallout from the coma where the chemical factory is ;)
 
I've got a question for the ECH advocates:

Is there some aspect of ECH theory which actually precludes the formation of kilometer-scale objects in the outer solar system that contain lots of ice?

Well, as I understand it, a LOT of ice on a comet is definitely NOT in line with the Electric Comet hypothesis.

A little amount of ice is not a deal breaker.

If you look at these points you will see why ...

ELECTRIC COMET MODEL hypothesis:

Comets are debris produced during violent electrical interactions of planets and moons in an earlier phase of solar system history. Comets are similar to asteroids, and their composition varies. Most comets should be homogeneous -- their interiors will have the same composition as their surfaces. They are simply “asteroids on eccentric orbits.”

Comets follow their elongated paths within a weak electrical field centered on the Sun. In approaching the Sun, a charge imbalance develops between the nucleus and the higher voltage and charge density near the Sun. Growing electrical stresses initiate discharges and the formation of a glowing plasma sheath, appearing as the coma and tail.

The observed jets of comets are electric arc discharges to the nucleus, producing “electrical discharge machining” (EDM) of the surface. The excavated material is accelerated into space along the jets’ observed filamentary arcs.

Intermittent and wandering arcs erode the surface and burn it black, leaving the distinctive scarring patterns of electric discharges.

The jets' explode from cometary nuclei at supersonic speeds and retain their coherent structure for hundreds of thousands of miles. The collimation of such jets is a well-documented attribute of plasma discharge.
 
Haig, that is "I am telling a story about asteroids and I didn't tell a story about ice, therefore EC comets are not ice". That does not answer Ziggurat's question.

If you apply the laws of physics and the initial conditions that EC applies, does something prevent ice from forming? For example, does EC say that the outer solar system has never been at ice-forming temperatures? Does the EC say that ice never forms because water is scarce compared to iron or silicate? Does the EC say that electromagnetic superbeams seek out water-ice and destroy it?
 
Well, as I understand it, a LOT of ice on a comet is definitely NOT in line with the Electric Comet hypothesis.

Sure, but why? Is this something that can be derived from other principles of the ECH? Or is it merely an axiomatic assumption?

Comets are debris produced during violent electrical interactions of planets and moons in an earlier phase of solar system history.

Yes, I know that's what you think comets are. That's not my question. My question is, why do you believe that comet-sized objects with large amounts of ice could not form? Because even if electrical interactions between planets ejected pieces of those planets into elliptical orbits, that wouldn't prevent the creation of icy bodies during the formation of the solar system. So even under the ECH, why couldn't icy comet-sized objects also be flying around?
 
What about semi-major axis?....
What about it, paladin17?
We can make up as many stories as we like about how the invalid electric comet idea magically makes asteroids into comets because it has no model for this. We could even ignore eccentricity and say that every asteroid should be a comet :D!
 
The MIDAS findings are a SURPRISE for the mainstream but another confirmation for the ELECTRIC COMET! :cool:
Wrong Sol88: The MIDAS findings are a SURPRISE for the mainstream because the ice was tougher than expected but another debunking for the ELECTRIC COMET because NO ROCK WAS FOUND :jaw-dropp!

ETA: But a later post suggests that you think that there is an ELECTRIC COMET prediction for the size of dust particles on comets - citation please Sol88.
 
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To the extent that people - such as Haig, and apparently you - are 'fooled/conned/taken in' by his art, and mistake it for mathematics or science, he is a successful artist.
As far as I am concerned (I cannot speak for Haig) I was never fooled by the non-science, non-mathematical gibberish on the Miles Mathis web site, JeanTate.
 
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Sure, but why? Is this something that can be derived from other principles of the ECH? Or is it merely an axiomatic assumption?
Ice isn't excluded per se it's just less likely to be a major part of comets.

Yes, I know that's what you think comets are. That's not my question. My question is, why do you believe that comet-sized objects with large amounts of ice could not form? Because even if electrical interactions between planets ejected pieces of those planets into elliptical orbits, that wouldn't prevent the creation of icy bodies during the formation of the solar system. So even under the ECH, why couldn't icy comet-sized objects also be flying around?

A Thunderbolt from a large planet sized comet excavating a planetary surface with exploding double layers could just as easily lobe chunks of ice into space as chunks of rock that then become comets. It's just that, it's understood, the bodies involved didn't have a lot of ice on them, with one exception ;)

So sure there may be the odd comet sized ice lump out there but it's not likely, that's all.

Let me ask you a question. Now that mainstream seem to be ruling out comets as delivering water to Earth (wrong sort of water :cool: ) and turning to asteroids seems a desperate move. Where DID our water come from ???

The Thunderbolts crowd have an answer and ALSO and explanation as to why our oceans are so salty.

There's an awful lot of water on Earth :eek:
 
Ice isn't excluded per se it's just less likely to be a major part of comets.
Unfortunately, Haig, real science shows that ice is a major component of comets since their measured density is less than that of water, i.e. they are not rocks! We even measured that the material ejected by Deep Impact has a good percentage of ices.
A fairy story that is not the electric comet idea of thunderbolts between planets is not an answer to Ziggurat's question.

Think about this: About 4.6 billion years ago there was a grain of dust floating in the outer solar system. It is surrounded by gasses.
The question is then simply:
What in the electric comet idea stops these gases from condensing on that grain of dust, Haig?

Also now that science has made comets less likely to be a source of Earth's oceans and you think that "turning to asteroids seems a desperate move", where do you think that Earth's water came from, Haig?
No fantasies from the Thunderbolts crowd about thunderbolts creating water please :p!
ETA: I suspect that the Thunderbolts crowd deny the actual source of salt in oceans - runoff from the land - and make up fairy stories about thunderbolts in the forum.
 
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A Thunderbolt from a large planet sized comet excavating a planetary surface with exploding double layers could just as easily lobe chunks of ice into space as chunks of rock that then become comets. It's just that, it's understood, the bodies involved didn't have a lot of ice on them, with one exception ;)

Why only once exception? Mars has plenty of surface ice. So too does Europa, Ganymede (which is larger than Mercury, BTW), Callisto, Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, and Titan (also larger diameter than Mercury).

So sure there may be the odd comet sized ice lump out there but it's not likely, that's all.

You still aren't understanding my question.

What is it about the ECH that precludes the formation of comet-sized icy bodies during the initial formation of the solar system? What happens after that is not part of my question.

Does the ECH claim that there was no ice available during the initial formation of the solar system? Does the ECH claim that any available ice would have been in the wrong place? Does the ECH claim that available ice would only have formed in large concentrations on bodies significantly larger or smaller than comet-sized objects? Does the ECH claim that any icy comet-sized bodies formed during the initial stages of the solar system would have been destroyed by now?

What is it about the ECH that precludes comet-sized icy bodies?
 
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