The Electric Comet theory

[Reality Check]

This belongs with my previous post.

Your previous post was the inanity of citing an unrelated crank book that claims to extract energy from the vacuum, Haig.
Any one reading "A System Continuously Extracting Energy from the Vacuum Can be Made for a Dollar" and with a basic knowledge of science would know that this is a crank book.

It is deluded to think that NSAS takes any notice of random cranks on the internet.

We might be able to extract energy from the non-vacuum that is space, e.g. a solar wind farm .

 

[Reality Check]

Make NO mistake this IS a step towards the Electric Universe theory by NASA

Make NO mistake, Haig: NASA is not so stupid as to make any steps toward the invalid, crank idea that is the Electric Universe theory which starts off with the idiocy that is

The Electric Universe theory highlights the importance of electricity throughout the Universe. It is based on the recognition of existing natural electrical phenomena (eg. lightning, St Elmo's Fire), and the known properties of plasmas (ionized "gases") which make up 99.999% of the visible universe, and react strongly to electro-magnetic fields.

The idiocies in that short statement are:
* thinking that the magnetic part of electromagnetism is not as important as the electric part.
* thinking that terrestrial phenomena such as lightning or St Elmo's Fire are applicable to the entire universe (they only happen in air!)
* ignoring the known properties of plasmas as EU does is the ultimate idiocy!
* Plasma is actually less than 4% of the universe !

 

[Reality Check]

I don't, but others on the PC/EU side do.

Oh dear, Haig - the bad act of linking to a YouTube video and lying about it being from some PC/EU cranks!
The Suspicious0bservers channel is a series of videos about various topics, e.g. wildfires, earthquakes, solar activity, interesting news from NASA. That video repeats the NASA announcement that you have already linked to .

ETA: The narrative though is some ignorant person going on about the EU delusion.
* they cannot tell the difference between 0.6 and 3.0 - like you Haig !
* they have the delusion that a simulation showing electric fields around an asteroid is showing the coma and tails of a comet.
* they have the delusion that the mainstream takes any notice of the crank EU idea.
* they have been gullible enough to be taken in by the crank Thunderbolts web site.
If the narrator is Ben Davidson then we have the uninformed opinion of a lawyer.

ETA: It gets worse though.
Ben Davidson was at a EU conference displaying his ignorance about climate change: The Earth-Sun connection, together with the Sun’s galactic environment, can help to explain climate extremes of every kind.
What has global warming done since 1998?

The planet has continued to accumulate heat since 1998 - global warming is still happening. Nevertheless, surface temperatures show much internal variability due to heat exchange between the ocean and atmosphere. 1998 was an unusually hot year due to a strong El Nino.

Sun & climate: moving in opposite directions
Climate scientists have known about the "Earth-Sun connection" for many decades - the total amount of energy from the Sun affects the climate of the Earth. The more energy the hotter the climate and vice versa. The total amount of energy from the Sun has been constant (or decreasing a little) for the last 35 years. Global temperatures have been increasing for those 35 years.

Then there is the "its cosmic rays (due to Sun’s galactic environment)" climate myth: What's the link between cosmic rays and climate change?

ETA: And even worse . Look at the list of speakers:
Wallace Thornhill: at least a physicist
David Talbot: a mythologist .
Dr. Donald Scott" an electrical engineer who cannot understand simple science such as the evidence that the Sun is internally powered by fusion!
Piers Corbyn: A weather man who sells "predictions" from a secret, unpublished, not scientifically tested formula for long range weather forecasts.
Dr. Pierre Latour: a climate change denier - the idiocy that "There are no greenhouse gases in physics" and many other climate myths !
Dr. Robert Straitt: somehow "merging the experiences of our ancestors with the revelations of modern technology and social science" is relevant to the current climate change.
Dr. Gary Schwartz: who talks about parapsychology and applies some vague test to EU. But what matters in science is whether a theory matches observation - something that EU fails abysmally, e.g. not one prediction of the neutrino flux from the Sun.
James Sorensen: is trying to recreate Anthony Peratt’s computer simulation of plasma without apparently understanding what Anthony Peratt’s computer simulation simulates ! It gives mass distributions that do not match the actual mass distributions of galaxies.
Monty Childs: an engineer? talks about the SAFIRE Project: a "electrically-driven, miniature Sun in the laboratory" which supposedly will solve mysteries about the solar atmosphere. But do not try to find any details of this project on the web or scientific literature .
Dr. Clarage: More about the SAFIRE project.
Ben Davidson: See above!
Lowell Morgan: More about the SAFIRE project.
Daniel Jencka: influenced by ideas of Immanuel Velikovsky !
Dr. Mullen: "Hieroglyphics and the Ancient Sky" - what more needs to be said!
Stephen Crothers: a GR crank.
Dr. Wolfe: an irrelevant talk about fractals.
Pierre-Marie Robitaille: A radiologist who magically made the CMB into radiation from the ocean! Now he has the fantasy that the Sun is made of "liquid metallic hydrogen".
Dr. Kongpop U-yen: an electrical engineer who thinks that solar activity causes storms and earthquakes.
Bob Johnson: an engineer with ideas about electricity in geology and biology.
Bob Weber: an audio design engineer spouting the "Sun does it" climate myth.
Dr. Michael Brill: an industrial physicist with an non-EU idea about the Ninety-East Ridge.
Vernon Roth: Wow - hydrogen, helium, oxygen, and xenon can be made into plasmas!
Ignacio Cisneros: a poet (with experience in astronomical imaging)!
Stephen Smith: an editor talks about imaginary "powerful plasma discharges" on Mars.
Dwardu Cardona: A particularly radical development of Immanuel Velikovsky's ideas is the notion that planet Earth was once (within human memory) a satellite of Saturn. Chief proponents of these "Saturn Myth" ideas include David Talbott, Dwardu Cardona and Ev Cochrane!
Dr. Dowdye: an electrical engineer who thinks that GR is wrong despite the enormous scientific evidence for it.
Michael Steinbacher: a photographer who spouted fantasies about geology!
Dr. A.P. David: a classical scholar.
Chuck Huber: Actor and filmmaker.
Mel Acheson: an editor.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

I don't, but others on the PC/EU side do.

Here's a start for you

S0 News June 26, 2014 | Electric Asteroids, Major US/Can Storm Watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--OCvgzpuIk&list=UUTiL1q9YbrVam5nP2xzFTWQ

No numbers there for me, Haig ... would you be so kind as to transcribe the ones you think you saw/heard, and post them here please?

About numbers: I have some old books which have this very impressive feature, when you look at them side-on, they shine gold. I'm told this gilt-edging is done with gold leaf, which truly is gold.

Suppose I break off the tiniest piece of such a gilt edge, and drop it in my back yard. Suppose it is discovered later, analysed, and yes, it's gold. Between a microgram and a nanogram of gold.

Someone with no head for numbers might equate this most tiny speck of gold with tens of thousands of tons of gold (it is, after all, gold), and perhaps I could sell him this wonderful bridge my modest property as - literally - a gold mine.

In all your posts about electric comets, Haig, aren't you equating a nanogram of gold with a thousand tons of it?

Unless and until your EU/PC buddies can come with robust numbers, aren't they the same as the gullible marks who'd buy the Brooklyn Bridge?

 

[tusenfem]

So you don't have numbers either way then? Thanks for your heartfelt confession.

Don't expect any numbers from EU/EC/ES adherents, you will only be told that you and scale plasma physics.

 

[Haig]

Don't expect any numbers from EU/EC/ES adherents, you will only be told that you and scale plasma physics.

No to the first point and yes to the second.

I don't have that much time for this just now, too many questions, all you genuine guys really have to do your own thinking if you want answers.

Look at the recent findings in the Sun - Earth connections and think how that can apply to the electrical environment around the sun and a charged body moving in it such as a Electric Comet.

Earth’s Lightning Ramps Up With The Solar Wind: Study & sudden stratospheric warming during moderate-to-high solar activity: & Twisted magnetic flux tubes in the solar wind

These effects and others known to be acting in the Sun - Earth connection are also acting in the Sun - comet connection.

It's all about the evidence ... deal with it.

Dr. Pierre-Marie Robitaille: Sun on Trial | EU2014

For nearly 150 years despite the lack of observational evidence, the Sun has been considered to be a ball of gaseous material. Such a postulate rests on mathematical arguments. Nonetheless, observations, not mathematics, properly determine the phases of matter. In this light, a systematic review of 40 solar findings provides ample proof that the Sun is comprised of condensed matter In this presentation, the phase of the Sun will be discussed by contrasting the gas-based Standard Solar Model (SSM) with the Liquid Metallic Hydrogen Solar Model (LMHSM). Unlike the SSM, the LMHSM does not permit the Sun to radiate internally.

Episode 2 Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Lightning Scarred Planet, Mars (Full Documentary)

Published on 20 Jun 2014
After much deliberation, we made the decision to release this full documentary. Year by year the evidence for global electric scarring of Mars continues to grow. Bringing the facts to public attention will be amongst our highest priorities in coming months. Note: all of the Mars imagery involves actual maps from Google Mars.

In Episode 2 Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Lightning Scarred Planet, Mars, David Talbott takes the viewer on an odyssey across the surface of Mars. Exploring feature after feature of the planet, he finds that only electric arcs could produce the observed patterns. The high resolution images reveal massive channels and gouges, great mounds, and crater chains, none finding an explanation in traditional geology but all matching the scars from electric discharge experiments in the laboratory.

Electric Universe -Chapter 7 "Birkeland Currents, Magnetic Ropes and Current-Carrying Double Layers"

Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Electric Comet (Full Documentary)

This from a thread on Thunderbolts ...

The point is that the mainstream concept of it makes it difficult to sort out. They have B-fields with no associated currents, and currents with no associated B-fields. And they don't have an electromotive force (i.e., an electric field). So they have this heliospheric current sheet, caused by nothing at all, sandwiched between opposing magnetic fields from the Sun, which have no business being open. As Birkeland currents, it all makes sense.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/p...hp?f=3&t=15027

So guys ... why is the sun's heliospheric current sheet there and what caused it?

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Don't expect any numbers from EU/EC/ES adherents, you will only be told that you and scale plasma physics.

No to the first point and yes to the second.

So, are you confirming what tusenfem said? Or disagreeing?

I don't have that much time for this just now,

Same old, same old? It seems that EU/PC proponents (Zeuzzzzz the only exception) always seem to run out of time when the questions start coming in. Almost as if they get rewarded for basically spamming as many websites as they can.

too many questions, all you genuine guys really have to do your own thinking if you want answers.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Trouble is, everything came up "mainstream right, EU nonsense, PC nice idea but fails all the acid tests."

Look at the recent findings in the Sun - Earth connections and think how that can apply to the electrical environment around the sun and a charged body moving in it such as a Electric Comet.

Earth’s Lightning Ramps Up With The Solar Wind: Study & sudden stratospheric warming during moderate-to-high solar activity: & Twisted magnetic flux tubes in the solar wind

These effects and others known to be acting in the Sun - Earth connection are also acting in the Sun - comet connection.

It's all about the evidence ... deal with it.

Like I said earlier, a microgram of gold from the gilt edge of an old book doth not a gold mine make.

Dr. Pierre-Marie Robitaille: Sun on Trial | EU2014


Episode 2 Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Lightning Scarred Planet, Mars (Full Documentary)



Electric Universe -Chapter 7 "Birkeland Currents, Magnetic Ropes and Current-Carrying Double Layers"

Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Electric Comet (Full Documentary)

This from a thread on Thunderbolts ...


http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/p...hp?f=3&t=15027

So guys ... why is the sun's heliospheric current sheet there and what caused it?
[qimg]http://pluto.space.swri.edu/image/figures/IMF.gif[/qimg]

Still waiting for those numbers, Haig ...

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Quote
Like I said earlier, a microgram of gold from the gilt edge of an old book doth not a gold mine make.
/quote

A more accurate order of magnitude comparison than my aircraft carrier/lemon battery example, perhaps. Without Haig's numbers we'll never know.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Quote
Like I said earlier, a microgram of gold from the gilt edge of an old book doth not a gold mine make.
/quote

A more accurate order of magnitude comparison than my aircraft carrier/lemon battery example, perhaps. Without Haig's numbers we'll never know.

I think yours is more appropriate; the EU crowd are forever banging on about currents (and voltages, and power, and energy), yet they can never seem to get around to saying whether a lemon and two nails (or two lemons and one nail; they can't even get that sort of thing right) is adequate to light up all the streets and homes of New York City for a century, or is barely enough to power your TV's remote for more than a second.

Perhaps best not buy a used car from any of them, they might sell you a lemon

 

[ben m]

I don't have that much time for this just now, too many questions, all you genuine guys really have to do your own thinking if you want answers.

Good advice! I do my own thinking; that's how I reached the conclusion that EU/PC doesn't work.

(Somehow I don't think that's what you meant.)

Do you do your own thinking? Why don't you show us some of the independent EU/PC calculations you've done?

 

[tusenfem]

No to the first point and yes to the second.

Indeed, as expected, one will never, ever, get numbers from an EU/ES/EC person, even though in all the discussions you will see, comments like, "it's all based on Alfven's theories, blah blah". As we all know Alfven was a great scientist (I met him) and he had also great math skills and would not hesitate to put numbers up, or at least a few equations describing his ideas. Look at his books Cosmic Plasmas or Cosmic Electrodynamic. And yes, plasmas can be scaled to a certain extent, but ... you have to know what you are scaling and whether that is appropriate or not!!! Just saying it can be scaled is like saying "oh I can pay that, without looking at your bank account."

But this bunch just does not want to put some effort in it. I wish I could do that with my work on the Rosetta mission! This paper of mine would only have taken a day to write, had I done the EU/ES/EC approach. But I took the time to learn plasma physics and how to apply it. Haig unfortunately, can only look for keywords and then copy some text, whether it is appropriate or not.

I don't have that much time for this just now, too many questions, all you genuine guys really have to do your own thinking if you want answers.

So, what's new? We heard that story, you disappear a bit and then come back witht the same nonsense. It is about time that you do some thinking and studying, maybe you will start to get a grip on a wee bit on how physics works.

Look at the recent findings in the Sun - Earth connections and think how that can apply to the electrical environment around the sun and a charged body moving in it such as a Electric Comet.

Earth’s Lightning Ramps Up With The Solar Wind: Study & sudden stratospheric warming during moderate-to-high solar activity: & Twisted magnetic flux tubes in the solar wind

These effects and others known to be acting in the Sun - Earth connection are also acting in the Sun - comet connection.

Of course I could say apples andd oranges, but you would not understand.

It's all about the evidence ... deal with it.

I deal with the evidence all the time. But because you, and most of your thunderdolts friends have not even got the most basic knowledge of physics (clear from a lot of comments by different posters on the thunderdolts forum) you can make up anything you want. You are not limited to the laws of physics, you are only limited by your imagination, and that is limitless. Of course you will say that I am not open minded.
... snip ... (not going to discuss all nonsense)

So guys ... why is the sun's heliospheric current sheet there and what caused it?
[qimg]http://pluto.space.swri.edu/image/figures/IMF.gif[/qimg]

The sun's heliospheric current sheet is created by the magnetic field from the sun that is carried along (frozen in) with the solar wind. As on a whole the sun (at larger distances) has a dipolar field, this means that the two hemispheres of the heliosphere have oppositely directed magnetic field. (although the "neutral plane" varies quite a lot, see "the bashful ballerina" model of the heliospheric current sheet). Now because there is plasma around (which transports the magnetic field outward) and there is oppositely directed magnetic field, there MUST be a current flowing perpendicular to the magnetic field, in this case this means "circling" around the sun.

This is know in mainstream space plasma physics, this is measured, this is studied. But I guess you are not up to date with that, that can happen.

Also, of course, it is a technique of EU/ES/EC proponents to just dump a question, which is easily answered if you look on the web or in the literature, and somehow claim that something is not understood. This is a creationist technique.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

I don't have that much time for this just now, too many questions, all you genuine guys really have to do your own thinking if you want answers.

Good advice! I do my own thinking; that's how I reached the conclusion that EU/PC doesn't work.

(Somehow I don't think that's what you meant.)

Do you do your own thinking? Why don't you show us some of the independent EU/PC calculations you've done?

I don't know if EU boosters like Haig get paid to spam every internet forum they can find with stuff the EU Marketing Department creates, but you wonder don't you?

I mean, if they put even 1% of the effort they devote to mindlessly hawking this particular brand of lemon pseudoscience into doing their own, independent calculations (or other objective, quantitative investigations), we'd be free of this nonsense, wouldn't we?

And it's not like finding explicit, easy-to-address EU questions (or challenges) are hard to find, nor that an honest attempt to actual try wouldn't win instant fame! For example Tom Bridgman has a webpage with a long list of concisely worded challenges, not a single one of which any EU promoter has attempted to address: Challenges for Electric Universe 'Theorists'...

...which they repeatedly evade...
Here I am collecting a list the problems with Electric Universe (EU) claims that EU supporters persistently ignore. Currently, it will expand as I use it to index much of my existing material. I hope to maintain this as a 'master list' of EU problems and it should be regarded as the first place to check for a EU topics on this site.

To help you Haig, Electric Comets is one of the open challenges; would you care to have a go at addressing it? Not now perhaps - you said you're too busy just now - but later, when you do have time perhaps?

 

[Reality Check]

I don't have that much time for this just now, too many questions, all you genuine guys really have to do your own thinking if you want answers.

Way to show the world that you are not thinking for yourself, Haig !

So what so we have now from you, Haig
The insanity of linking to YouTube videos as if they were scientific literature or even textbooks!
The ignorance of astrophysics where the plasma environment around the sun and any body moving in it has been studied for decades, e.g. the charging spacecraft when they travel through the solar wind.
The inanity of citing of geophysics as if it supported the EU delusion.
The ignorance of the fact that magnetic flux tubes in the solar wind have been known for some time and nothing to do with the EU delusion..

The insanity citing of a YouTube video from the ignorant crank, Pierre-Marie Robitaille, who is so deluded that he thinks the CMB is emitted from the oceans and that the Sun is "liquid solid hydrogen". Since you do not want to think for yourself Haig :
* The CMB is a perfect black body spectrum and so cannot be emitted from the oceans. The CMB has variations in it that correlate with super-voids and super-clusters. It must have passed through them.
* The interior of the Sun can be measured using helioseismology. The way the waves travel through the Sun matches models where the Sun is a plasma. And of course there are the known properties of hydrogen and known laws of physics that means that the Sun does not contain "liquid solid hydrogen"!

The ignorance of linking to a video containing the fairy story that lightening has scarred Mars!
The ignorance of linking to a forum on a book selling site (Thunderbolts)!
The delusion of thinking that the EU delusion has any actual explanation of
why is the heliospheric current sheet is there and what caused it. And of course the displayed ignorance about the heliospheric current sheet
The heliospheric current sheet is there because the Sun has a solar wind and magnetic field, Haig.
What causes the heliospheric current sheet is the solar wind and Sun's magnetic field, Haig.

 

[Reality Check]

This from a thread on Thunderbolts ...


http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/p...hp?f=3&t=15027

Thank you Haig for demonstrating just how ignorant the posters in that thread on Thunderbolts are and how gullible you are to fall for that ignorance:

The point is that the mainstream concept of it makes it difficult to sort out. They have B-fields with no associated currents, and currents with no associated B-fields. And they don't have an electromotive force (i.e., an electric field). So they have this heliospheric current sheet, caused by nothing at all, sandwiched between opposing magnetic fields from the Sun, which have no business being open. As Birkeland currents, it all makes sense.

Some basic physics for you, Haig:
Birkeland currents are not the cause of the heliospheric current sheet as anyone who knows what a Birkeland current or heliospheric current sheet are knows! They are the interaction of the solar wind with a magnetic field of the Earth and possibly other planets. They produce currents that look nothing like the heliospheric current sheet.

You do not have to have a current to have a B-field.
* Electromagnetic waves have B fields and do not have a current.
* Electrons have a B field and no current.
* Ferromagnetic materials have a B field and no currents.
* Magnetic flux tubes (as in solar corona) have B fields that have dissociated with the currents that created them. They are in plasma so there are also other currents.

The heliospheric current sheet has an associated B field - the Suns and solar wind!

Actual science has this heliospheric current sheet caused by something (which the poster is ignorant about and so calls nothing!).

 

[Reality Check]

Haig: Why do EU supporters continue to claim that astronomers ignore E fields, etc

For example Tom Bridgman has a webpage with a long list of concisely worded challenges, not a single one of which any EU promoter has attempted to address: Challenges for Electric Universe 'Theorists'...

Also to help Haig, maybe he should consider this question:

Astronomers have studied the effects of free charges and electric fields in space as far back as 1922 (1922BAN.....1..107P) and 1924 (1924MNRAS..84..720R). ... Why do EU supporters continue to claim that astronomers ignore electric fields and free charges in space in spite of all the evidence to the contrary?

 

[Dancing David]

Dry rocks exudes water!
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140701093041.htm

 

[tusenfem]

Dry rocks exudes water!
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140701093041.htm

OH DD, you know better than that! It's all Electric Discharge Machining

 

[Dancing David]

OH DD, you know better than that! It's all Electric Discharge Machining

Muwahaha, must be a dirty snowball then, with methane sprinkles

 

[Reality Check]

Thank you Haig for demonstrating just how ignorant the posters in that thread on Thunderbolts are and how gullible you are to fall for that ignorance:

Haig, if you want to see many cases of delusional thinking and ignorance from an EU "expert" often citing other EU "experts" then have a look at the Thunderbolts picture of the day blog. A little knowledge of science , some common senesce and thinking for yourself will quickly reveal the daily delusions and ignorance there. If you cannot do that then I have done some of the thinking for you in the coworker is going to tell me about 'several' problems with Relativity thread:
* "Indian shell gorgets featuring spiders + creation myths = geomagnetism"!, the ranting of Stephen J. Crothers, etc.
* An example of the Electric Universe proponents actually discarding laboratory experiments in favor of their fantasies.
* ignorance about magnetospheres and magnetotails; ignorance about observational astronomy .

 

[Siggy_G]

You do not have to have a current to have a B-field.
* Electromagnetic waves have B fields and do not have a current.
* Electrons have a B field and no current.
* Ferromagnetic materials have a B field and no currents.
* Magnetic flux tubes (as in solar corona) have B fields that have dissociated with the currents that created them. They are in plasma so there are also other currents.

(I sometimes skim through these threads due to push notifications per e-mail)

Reality Check,
Some corrections to your statements:

• There is always some kind of configuration of electric currents or moving charges to a B field.
  
• Electromagnetic waves is a different issue. They have no net B field and hence no net electric current, but are composed of a symmetric oscilation of both E and B fields perpendicular to eachother.
  
• Electrons have an intrinsic magnetic moment as a result of its spin i.e. the magnetic field is induced by a moving charge.
  
• In ferromagnetic materials, the atoms and their polarity are in a fixed molecular grid, alligning a plenum of poles. Such poles are caused by microscopic bound currents or charges in motion (electron cloud).
  
• External or induced B fields guide moving charges along the field's structure (along field lines, as with a Birkeland current). The electric component of a B field has already been explained. "Magnetic flux tubes" are really just a cylindrical current sheet formation - or some morphology of it. If the electric currents or B fields that created it disappears, the magnetically confined structure dissolves and lives its own plasma life.