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The Dixie Chicks

Anyway, I'll cut to the chase.

About friggin' time.

There have been numerous posts here suggesting that what the Chicks have done is economically driven, whether they kept their opinions to themselves, offered their opinions, or, I don't know, held no opinions whatsoever. This seems rather a cynical outlook, nevermind convenient; damn them, and damn the facts. Regardless. Now before you ask, I don't know the facts. But it's entirely possible one or more of the trio simply dislike one or more of the policies of the current administration.

So you condemn those who don't have facts that you can't even name. Sounds like a case of pot/kettle/black, but let's continue.

What's curious to me, and in retrospect a better question for starting off the thread: Why the very big deal over the 2003 comment? I'll guess that it was due to some combination of its timing (tip of the hat to Tricky), the location (overseas), and the demographic and politics of the average country music fan, the latter including a bit of "traditional values" bias vis-a-vis sexual roles.

Ah, so you cannot conceive that the average country fan would have any other reason to tune out the Dixie Chicks than their perceived "assertiveness," instead of their "views in violent opposition to the views held by many if not most of their fans." I believe it's time to invoke Occam here, so why don't you explain WHY you think the obvious answer is incorrect.

Of course, this many mean you digging up some of those troublesome facts you admit not having, so I promise to be patient. For my part, I don't need to know the exact rate of acceleration due to gravity to know which way a brick drops.

Also at work may be a subtle bit of psychological projection. Me, I notice I like a female singer a bit more if she is unmarried. It aids the illusion that she's singing to and for me personally. A relationship, a connection of sorts is in place. If that woman then gets hitched I sense in myself a touch of loss, even though the only thing gone is a silly little fantasy.

And it may be Ross Perot directing us through cranial implants from his mother ship orbiting the moon. So friggin' what? If you think your hypothetical is worth a whit, explain Madonna packing stadiums at the age of 135 with crow's feet and hip dysplasia. She's married with a growing stable of spawn - according to your "theory," she should have vanished long ago.

I only wish.

I suspect (again, admittedly a guess) this may be universal and for many the Chicks were at one time like their sisters or daughters or girlfriends. With the Bush comment, fans who disagreed felt personally bruised and betrayed, thus the reaction. Not to the remark so much, which was rather mild, but to their disappointment at investing affection and having it turn out to be misplaced.

Well, you've got a lot of guesses and suspicions and nothing substantive to back them up in the face of obvious contradictions, so I guess you expect me to weigh their value on ther own merit. I find them extremely thin. Want to change my mind? Fatten them up with a little more argument, a little less opnion.
 
I know this may come as a shock to some of you, but the Dixie Chicks aren't real.

Even Frank Zappa, one of the most iconoclastic and obnoxious and seemingly outspoken people in the business, who since about 1970 owned and controlled all of his material, once said to an interviewer, in paraphrase, "You are speaking to Frank Zappa the musician. You will never speak to Frank Zappa the person. Only my wife and kids see that."

The original statement about Bush was a miscalculation, nothing more. The apology was calculated. The retraction of the apology was calculated.

Everyone at this level of popularity is always playing a part on stage and in interviews, and the reason is usually simple economics. The Dixie Chicks appeal to a crossover rock/country audience with some lesbians. They know this. They know they are doing this. They misestimated their audience, possibly because they overestimated the number of lesbians or misestimated their politics, and this is probably because they haven't actually met any actual Southern lesbians in ten years that were not filtered through a dozen or so layers of agents, promo people, and hangers on.

There is nothing genuine here. You might think there is, but that's the point of the act. It's all on a series of spreadsheets in a record company. Maybe one of them used SPSS, but since they aren't too bright, probably not.

The only genuine thing that performers at this level ever do is puke or pass out on stage, or go into rehab. Which then almost immediately becomes calculated spin.

Now, now, don't you realize that the Dixie Chicks have become the benchmark for gender realtions and women's rights in our day? How dare you call their courageous (if mobile) stand against the president a cynical ploy! Why, next you'll be telling me that the Monkees were a cycnical attempt by American record labels to cash in on the Beatles mystique. :rolleyes:
 
Now, now, don't you realize that the Dixie Chicks have become the benchmark for gender realtions and women's rights in our day? How dare you call their courageous (if mobile) stand against the president a cynical ploy! Why, next you'll be telling me that the Monkees were a cycnical attempt by American record labels to cash in on the Beatles mystique. :rolleyes:
Well, you've got a lot of guesses and suspicions and nothing substantive to back them up in the face of obvious contradictions, so I guess you expect me to weigh their value on ther own merit. I find them extremely thin. Want to change my mind? Fatten them up with a little more argument, a little less opnion.
pot - kettle?
 
So you condemn those who don't have facts that you can't even name. Sounds like a case of pot/kettle/black, but let's continue.
The "facts" that RK mentioned was what the DCs actually think. He is not privy to that. If you are, Randi has a cool million for you.

Ah, so you cannot conceive that the average country fan would have any other reason to tune out the Dixie Chicks than their perceived "assertiveness," instead of their "views in violent opposition to the views held by many if not most of their fans."
I don't believe that was in any way what Regnad said. In fact, he suggested quite clearly it was a combination of things.
Of course, this many mean you digging up some of those troublesome facts you admit not having, so I promise to be patient. For my part, I don't need to know the exact rate of acceleration due to gravity to know which way a brick drops.
Look very closely, Jocko.
Regnad Kcin said:
Now before you ask, I don't know the facts. But it's entirely possible one or more of the trio simply dislike one or more of the policies of the current administration.
He's saying he doesn't know why they did what they did. Nobody does except them, and he admits it. Why do you have a problem with that statement?


And it may be Ross Perot directing us through cranial implants from his mother ship orbiting the moon. So friggin' what? If you think your hypothetical is worth a whit, explain Madonna packing stadiums at the age of 135 with crow's feet and hip dysplasia. She's married with a growing stable of spawn - according to your "theory," she should have vanished long ago.
Are you against people expressing their theories here? It seems to me that such expressions are the whole foundation of the P&CE forum.

And Madonna has never done much to alienate her mainstream fans (which are a completely different demographic from Country Music fans) so she, like the Rolling Stones, can pack stadia as long as she gives her fans what they want, even if she does it from a wheelchair.

Well, you've got a lot of guesses and suspicions and nothing substantive to back them up in the face of obvious contradictions, so I guess you expect me to weigh their value on their own merit. I find them extremely thin. Want to change my mind? Fatten them up with a little more argument, a little less opinion.
Obvious contradictions? I don't think you have presented any obvious contradictions. You've expressed your opinion, backed by nothing substantive. But that's okay. That is what we do here.
 
Lots of good and bad points being made here. A couple quick random $.02 thoughts from me:

Dixie Chicks are still doing fine, thank you. http://www.ticketmaster.com/artist/758656 (Admittedly, it remains to be seen how well they draw, but they are at least booked at the major arenas.)

Do not equate "no number 1 hits" with not being successful. Michael Jackson, as Rob pointed out, still has a huge fan base and could still make millions marketing to them. You just won't hear anything by him on Top 40 radio in America today, much like Dixie Chicks on Top 40 country stations (see what also happened to kd Lang in the 90s).

This is also why the point about them being "not good enough" (to continue to be successful) really is irrelevant, regardless of whether you agree with that statement. "Good" is so subjective in pop music, that the image and marketing effect is what mostly determines whether they are on the radio, especially with the Top 40-type formats, be they Country, CHR, etc. (as Jocko would, I presume, attest to...I also wrote ads, for radio, for only 5 years though).
 
The "facts" that RK mentioned was what the DCs actually think. He is not privy to that. If you are, Randi has a cool million for you.

Yeah, well, I'm not the one posting threads about it, am I? The point is, I don't NEED an MRI of the Dixie Chicks' brains to posit a plausible reason for the backlash. Like I said, apply Occam's and all becomes clear.


Look very closely, Jocko. He's saying he doesn't know why they did what they did. Nobody does except them, and he admits it. Why do you have a problem with that statement?

Are you against people expressing their theories here? It seems to me that such expressions are the whole foundation of the P&CE forum.

I don't have a problem with the statement. Do you have a problem with my statement that it could be a spaceborne Ross Perot?

And Madonna has never done much to alienate her mainstream fans (which are a completely different demographic from Country Music fans) so she, like the Rolling Stones, can pack stadia as long as she gives her fans what they want, even if she does it from a wheelchair.

So, wait... you're admitting that alienation of the fans might have something to do with the Dixie Chicks' fortunes? Hallelujah, I think we've made a breakthrough. ;)

Nick posits that attractiveness and availability have something to do with the Dixie Chicks' appeal. I pointed out a counterexample, which you just reinforced by adding the Rolling Stones to the mix. How is a counterexample and a challenge to support one's position problematic? It seems to me that such expressions are the whole foundation of the P&CE forum.

Obvious contradictions? I don't think you have presented any obvious contradictions. You've expressed your opinion, backed by nothing substantive. But that's okay. That is what we do here.

Wow, sounds like someone's on the "Dixie Chicks as oppressed voices of a generation bandwagon." But that's okay, Hack country singers need to eat too.
 
Yeah, well, I'm not the one posting threads about it, am I? The point is, I don't NEED an MRI of the Dixie Chicks' brains to posit a plausible reason for the backlash. Like I said, apply Occam's and all becomes clear.
It isn't as if RK posted a theory in opposition to your. He said there could be a number of factors. Frankly, I find that more consistent with Occam than a "single bullet" theory.

Everything is clear to a person with tunnel vision.

I don't have a problem with the statement. Do you have a problem with my statement that it could be a spaceborne Ross Perot?
If it were plausible. You have provided nothing to show that RKs hypotheses are not plausible as one of multiple factors.

So, wait... you're admitting that alienation of the fans might have something to do with the Dixie Chicks' fortunes? Hallelujah, I think we've made a breakthrough. ;)
Yeah, I said it several posts back. Try to keep up.

Nick posits that attractiveness and availability have something to do with the Dixie Chicks' appeal. I pointed out a counterexample, which you just reinforced by adding the Rolling Stones to the mix. How is a counterexample and a challenge to support one's position problematic? It seems to me that such expressions are the whole foundation of the P&CE forum.
And you are suggesting that attractiveness does not have anything to do with the success of musicians? How many no-talent hardbodies do you see on the music scene today? With rare exceptions, the only people who can have mainstream success and still be butt-ugly are those who have a long-established fan base.

As for availability, I'd say that has less to do with it. Even the most die-hard fans realize that their fantasies are just that, and if they don't, then their fantasy scenario includes allowing their object of worship to forsake previous relationships for them, or even change sexual orientation.

How is a counterexample and a challenge to support one's position problematic? It seems to me that such expressions are the whole foundation of the P&CE forum.
It is not so much a challenge as a different example, and it seems that it is not enough for you to provide a counterexample, you must also show that only your counterexample is correct. It is unnecessarily confrontatory.

My position is that your counterexample only shows that established musicians no longer have to rely on looks to draw a crowd. Try convincing us that nobody considered Mick Jagger or Madonna to be attractive when they first broke on the music scene. It is true, though, that looks will only get you so far. Without talent, you will find your one hit album in the resale stacks at the music stores.

Out of interest though, I recently saw Mickey Dolenz, formerly of the Monkees playing the role of a bad guy in the musical Aida. He sounded okay, but he looked like hell (though it might have been the makeup). Elton John, who also looks like hell, wrote the music. He has talent.

Wow, sounds like someone's on the "Dixie Chicks as oppressed voices of a generation bandwagon." But that's okay, Hack country singers need to eat too.
Well, it is true that the Chicks are trying to appeal to a different demographic now. And no doubt, some of their support comes from those who would not have listened to them had they not found themselves on their side politically. But it was not an economically wise trade-off. If making money were their sole intention, then they scrude the pooch. But I doubt that they will be bankrupt soon.
 
Well, it is true that the Chicks are trying to appeal to a different demographic now. And no doubt, some of their support comes from those who would not have listened to them had they not found themselves on their side politically. But it was not an economically wise trade-off. If making money were their sole intention, then they scrude the pooch. But I doubt that they will be bankrupt soon.

The funny thing is, after all that wailing and gnashing of teeth, you arrive at the same place I've been since the beginning.

If you think my response to Nick's non-theory was too confrontatory[sic], then I suggest you find someone else to talk to or emply the ignore feature so you can continue to suffer fools gladly.
 
Well, how come we're not boycotting Willie Nelson? Johnny Cash? John Prine? Waylon Jennings? Kris Kristofferson (Django's Castle, Blame it on the stones...)...

How come we're only suposed to boycott the "chicks" who dare to have a brain in their heads?

I think we can all figure that 'un out.
 
It'll be interesting to see how many concerts are attended and cds purchased by their new fan base characterized by the likes of Tricky, backward nick, & jjcjdsjj. :D
 
It'll be interesting to see how many concerts are attended and cds purchased by their new fan base characterized by the likes of Tricky, backward nick, & jjcjdsjj. :D


So, what's jjcjdsjj? You afraid to use my name directly? Or was that some letter-salad?
 
Why? Are you planning to attend a concert & buy a few cds?
What the hell are you going on about, hammy?

I have a couple Dixie Chicks CDs. I also have Allison Krauss & Union Station, Bill Monroe, Ralph Stanley, Seldom Scene, Earl Scruggs, Doyle Lawson & Quicksilver, and several hundred others that range from country/bluegrass to goth/industrial. So what?
 
What the hell are you going on about, hammy?

I have a couple Dixie Chicks CDs. I also have Allison Krauss & Union Station, Bill Monroe, Ralph Stanley, Seldom Scene, Earl Scruggs, Doyle Lawson & Quicksilver, and several hundred others that range from country/bluegrass to goth/industrial. So what?


Well, who knows what Hammy is going on about.

I have one Dixie Chicks CD. I liked their version of "Landslide". I do have a thousand or so other CD's as well, well, that's a guess, figure thereabouts of 15 rows of standard CD cases each about 23" long. No idea, really, haven't counted.

Yeah, I have quite abit of Bill Monroe, Bean Blossom, various Stanleys, Bluegrass Album Band, JD Crowe and the New South, Flatt&Scruggs, Emmylou Harris, well as well as Green Day, the Ramones (maybe only on LP, I still have more of those than I have CD's), Pink Floyd, The Stones, Bill Staines, Gordon Bok, The Spaniels, The Persuasions, Nylons, King's Singers ...

Yeah, I have a lot of music. Don't go to concerts any more, used to run too many of them, and they are too (rule-8)ing loud anyhow.
 

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