The Dixie Chicks

[bluess]

Hey, what if 'Ol' Neil' had put out a song completely supporting Bush's position? Do you think his fan base would have gone ballistic?

 

[Rob Lister]

Hey, what if 'Ol' Neil' had put out a song completely supporting Bush's position? Do you think his fan base would have gone ballistic?

 

[Jocko]

Hey, what if 'Ol' Neil' had put out a song completely supporting Bush's position? Do you think his fan base would have gone ballistic?

Considering the average age of his fan base, I think their ballistic years are long behind them. More likely they'd share a massive stroke.

 

[Cleon]

Hey, what if 'Ol' Neil' had put out a song completely supporting Bush's position? Do you think his fan base would have gone ballistic?

Actually, post 9-11, Neil Young was publicly very pro-Bush, even pro-Patriot Act. He even wrote a song called "Let's Roll" in dedication to the people who died.

I think comparing Young to the Dixie Chicks doesn't quite work, though. Young's fan base has always been very broad and has changed several times over the course of his career. The country music community is a bit more insular; while some groups/acts like the DC, Allison Krauss, etc have seen some success among a broader crowd, the bulk of their base has remained pretty much the same.

 

[whitefork]

They'd put down their bongs and say "wha?" just like they did when he came out with favorable comments about Reagan back in the 80s.

 

[Rob Lister]

I think comparing Young to the Dixie Chicks doesn't quite work, though. Young's fan base has always been very broad and has changed several times over the course of his career. The country music community is a bit more insular; while some groups/acts like the DC, Allison Krauss, etc have seen some success among a broader crowd, the bulk of their base has remained pretty much the same.

agreed.

Someday the democrats will make real inroads into Country and NASCAR and such. That day clearly ain't here. Not that I much care. I just thought it funny that Clause was trying to compare the two.

 

[coalesce]

Considering the average age of his fan base, I think their ballistic years are long behind them. More likely they'd share a massive stroke.

Or they would react the same way that Grampa Simpson does when he can't watch Matlock.

Maaaaatlooooock!!!!

Michael

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
My question: What does it mean to be patriotic?

I'll go with m-w.com on this one: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.
With the caveat that the support of its authority and interests should not be given without continuous examination of what its interests are, and how it imposes its authority.

That said, I feel that patriotism often comes dangerously close to ethnocentrism.

 

[Jocko]

Actually, post 9-11, Neil Young was publicly very pro-Bush, even pro-Patriot Act. He even wrote a song called "Let's Roll" in dedication to the people who died.

Well, color me stunned. I did not know that. My main beef with Neil Young has traditionally been his nasal yodeling more than his politics, but this warrants a closer look. Thanks.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Do you think their sudden public rediscovery and proclamation of their principles has anything to do with trying to sell albums?

Who knows? But considering they've been rather consistent for the past 3 years I'd guess not so much.

Do you think their public and commercial backlash has anything to do with the Right's desire that good girls should mind their manners and let the men do the talkin'?

Aaaaah, here we go. I was wondering how long it would take for you to spit out what your point actually was. I'm sad to say I'm not surprised.

Apparently you missed the point. BPSCG suggests some nefarious, unproven agenda to the group's position, and, to illustrate, I responded in kind.

Do you have any evidence that suggests that the Dixie Chicks fortunes have turned based on misogyny instead of their gift for insulting a sizeable chunk of their fan base? (I apologize in advance if you're the only one allowed to throw out leading questions)

What say you to BPSCG's leading question? Or am I the only one who gets called on it?

Let me ask you this, Regnad: Do you think the Dixie Chicks have a right to live free from consequences of their public positions?

Never mind the sidestep, who is saying they don't?

 

[Jocko]

Never mind the sidestep, who is saying they don't?

No one, I guess. What was your point again? I keep looking, found something about patriotism, and then you get all murky. Of course, that could be the Claus factor coming into play, as well....

 

[CFLarsen]

I don't see Neil singing about freedom and waving the flag in the same vein as, say, The Ballard Of The Green Berets or Okie From Muskogee, and I don't think that he has that image attached to him. It's kind of like saying that Born In The USA is a flag-waving anthem based on the title, not the lyrics.

Michael

But he certainly outshines Dixie Chicks in Americana Patriotica.


...hey, that was pretty good. "Americana Patriotica"....

Yes. They were lambasted for criticizing Bush and the war in Iraq while being in a musical genre that has a fan base that had very strong feelings in favor of both. A subtle, yet distinct difference from Neil Young who is criticizing Bush and the Iraq war in a musical genre that has a fan base that is either indifferent or not in favor of both.

But Dixie Chicks weren't merely criticized within their own fan base.

I'm reasonably sure you'll gloss over that detail and make a painful semantic game out of it that will go on for hundreds of posts, probably with a few shifting of the goalposts, contextual misrepresentations and red herrings.

I doubt many think the Dixie Chicks were wrong for the criticizm, but they were wrong to think that doing so wouldn't affect their popularity, as evidenced by the lackluster album sales and poor radio play.

"Lackluster"? It went to #1 and stayed there, even after the brouhaha.

Yes, I checked. You did not.

 

[Cleon]

agreed.

Someday the democrats will make real inroads into Country and NASCAR and such. That day clearly ain't here. Not that I much care. I just thought it funny that Clause was trying to compare the two.

Actually, I think that day has been here and gone. First, think "Southern Democrats." A lot of appeal among conservative Democrats; during Bob Graham's brief run for the Presidency, for example, he had Ralph Stanley touring with him. (Dr. Stanley, for the culturally deficient, is one of the living legends of bluegrass music and as conservatively Southern as they come.)

Second, well, Willie Nelson is considered up there next to Jesus among country music fans. And if there's a bigger liberal pot-smoking hippie on the planet than Willie, I can't imagine who it is. (ETA: Yes, Jerry Garcia is still dead.)

Along the same lines, think the rest of the Highwaymen. Johnny Cash was very radical with some of his lyrics, especially towards the end. (His rendition of the Mercy Seat, about the death penalty, is very heavy.) Ditto for Waylon Jennings. Hell, Kris Kristofferson is to the left of Willie Nelson (when he's not killing vampires, anyway).

John Prine's as liberal as they come. Hell, Steve Earle openly calls himself a Marxist. The list goes on. So the Democratic Party and liberalism (or even philosophy to the left of such) are certainly not unheard of in the country music scene.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that sexism may play a role in the downfall of the Dixie Chicks; nothing they've said is any more left-wing than some of the things Kristofferson, Nelson, or others have said. I think that among country music fans, who are (as previously mentioned) rather conservative in their outlook, the idea of women speaking out on these issues is a bit of an anathema. They want the Chicks to shut up, look pretty, and sing nice, and that's it.

At least, this is the impression I've got from reading between the lines. I fully admit I can't prove sexism is at work here, but if comparisons are going to be made, they can easily be made to other country stars without going to Neil Young.

 

[CFLarsen]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that sexism may play a role in the downfall of the Dixie Chicks;

That was something that struck my mind, too.

 

[Grammatron]

Actually, I think that day has been here and gone. First, think "Southern Democrats." A lot of appeal among conservative Democrats; during Bob Graham's brief run for the Presidency, for example, he had Ralph Stanley touring with him. (Dr. Stanley, for the culturally deficient, is one of the living legends of bluegrass music and as conservatively Southern as they come.)

Second, well, Willie Nelson is considered up there next to Jesus among country music fans. And if there's a bigger liberal pot-smoking hippie on the planet than Willie, I can't imagine who it is. (ETA: Yes, Jerry Garcia is still dead.)

Along the same lines, think the rest of the Highwaymen. Johnny Cash was very radical with some of his lyrics, especially towards the end. (His rendition of the Mercy Seat, about the death penalty, is very heavy.) Ditto for Waylon Jennings. Hell, Kris Kristofferson is to the left of Willie Nelson (when he's not killing vampires, anyway).

John Prine's as liberal as they come. Hell, Steve Earle openly calls himself a Marxist. The list goes on. So the Democratic Party and liberalism (or even philosophy to the left of such) are certainly not unheard of in the country music scene.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that sexism may play a role in the downfall of the Dixie Chicks; nothing they've said is any more left-wing than some of the things Kristofferson, Nelson, or others have said. I think that among country music fans, who are (as previously mentioned) rather conservative in their outlook, the idea of women speaking out on these issues is a bit of an anathema. They want the Chicks to shut up, look pretty, and sing nice, and that's it.

At least, this is the impression I've got from reading between the lines. I fully admit I can't prove sexism is at work here, but if comparisons are going to be made, they can easily be made to other country stars without going to Neil Young.

I think you are overthinking this.

All the artists you mentioned -- that I recognized -- have always been "political" and spoke out about issues throughout their carreers. Where's Dixie Chicks were just pop-country and did not have a base of fans who liked them for their views instead of just their performance.

 

[Cleon]

I think you are overthinking this.

I'm open to the possibility.

All the artists you mentioned -- that I recognized

Sorry, I forget not everyone here is a music geek.

-- have always been "political" and spoke out about issues throughout their carreers. Where's Dixie Chicks were just pop-country and did not have a base of fans who liked them for their views instead of just their performance.

If we were just talking about, say, Steve Earle, I'd agree with you; he's a bit of a niche singer and isn't the superstar that Nelson, Cash, Kristofferson, etc. have been.

But do you really think Willie Nelson's fans like him for his views more than his music? Again, this is a guy put on a pedestal by many of the same people who are lambasting the Dixie Chicks. I would say the vast majority of his fans like him despite his views, not because of them; a consideration they won't give to the Chicks for some reason.

 

[Jocko]

But do you really think Willie Nelson's fans like him for his views more than his music? Again, this is a guy put on a pedestal by many of the same people who are lambasting the Dixie Chicks. I would say the vast majority of his fans like him despite his views, not because of them; a consideration they won't give to the Chicks for some reason.

An additional 30 years of shared history will do that, probably moreso than the performer's gender.

If Jimmy Buffet came out tomorrow in favor of cannibalism, you can bet the farm that the legions of parrotheads will turn Key West into a slaughterhouse overnight.

 

[Ziggurat]

a consideration they won't give to the Chicks for some reason.

Well, maybe they're simply not good enough. The better the artist is, the more likely potential customers will be willing to overlook other aspects they don't like.

 

[coalesce]

But he certainly outshines Dixie Chicks in Americana Patriotica.

If you mean patriotism as in expressing what you feel be it right or left, I agree. If you mean good-ole fashioned lock-step flag waving, I haven't seen it to the scale that you perceive.

And I also agree with Cleon about sexism playing a role. I hadn't thought of that, either.

Michael

 

[CFLarsen]

Well, maybe they're simply not good enough. The better the artist is, the more likely potential customers will be willing to overlook other aspects they don't like.

Two words:

Michael. Jackson.