The DeSantis gambit

[Ziggurat]

No, I am not. It was a quote directly from The College Board.

Which is still second hand, and still based on a single sentence.

As I've said twice now, I quoted and cited from the actual curriculum document

Once sentence. That's it.

Out of curiosity, exactly how do you think slaves personally benefited from skills learned as slaves other than along the lines of the example I gave?[/B]

For one thing, it's not only limited to skills they learned as slaves. For those who escaped slavery or were freed, it includes skills they learned after becoming free.

But we don't actually need to go that far afield. Even confining ourselves to skills learned as a slave, Fredrick Douglas learned to read while he was still a slave. I don't really think I need to detail exactly how this skill benefited him in his life.

Again, read my link. None of this is supposed to excuse or minimize slavery. Rather, it's meant to celebrate the accomplishments of slaves who managed to do so much despite, not because of, their slavery.

 

[The_Animus]

Again, why out of everything that could be added to the curriculum regarding slavery was this deemed so important?

 

[The_Animus]

And also, if they had been free, would they not have been able to learn skills? Like, this is just incredibly stupid.

 

[Stacyhs]

Which is still second hand, and still based on a single sentence.



Once sentence. That's it.

Holy ------! Would you care to explain how it's ANY FREAKING DIFFERENT? WAS THE QUOTE CHANGED? Do yourself a favor and put the shovel down.

For one thing, it's not only limited to skills they learned as slaves. For those who escaped slavery or were freed, it includes skills they learned after becoming free.

LOL. NO it does NOT! Note the word "slaves": Instruction includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be
applied for their personal benefit."
Not skills learned AFTER they escaped or were freed.

But we don't actually need to go that far afield. Even confining ourselves to skills learned as a slave, Fredrick Douglas learned to read while he was still a slave. I don't really think I need to detail exactly how this skill benefited him in his life.

He was taught to read by his "mistress" against her husband's wishes as it was against the law for slaves to read or write. Give me a break.

Again, read my link. None of this is supposed to excuse or minimize slavery. Rather, it's meant to celebrate the accomplishments of slaves who managed to do so much despite, not because of, their slavery.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 12

 

[quadraginta]

[snip]

But we don't actually need to go that far afield. Even confining ourselves to skills learned as a slave, Fredrick Douglas learned to read while he was still a slave. I don't really think I need to detail exactly how this skill benefited him in his life.

[snip]

And Frederick Douglass was, of course, the perfect example of an average slave raised in and working under the normal conditions that most slaves did.

You're very nearly as convincing as the Florida Repugnicans who claim they have no intention of trying to dilute the instruction about the facts about slavery.

Nearly, but not quite.

 

[quadraginta]

At which point Trump cries and asks all his suckers to give him $1000 for some new NFT's.

You misspelled 'more lawyers'.

 

[Ziggurat]

And Frederick Douglass was, of course, the perfect example of an average slave raised in and working under the normal conditions that most slaves did.

Who said that? Seriously, do you not know how to parse English?

"Instruction includes how slaves developed skills, which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."​

This is explicitly NOT stating that this was the average slave experience.

 

[quadraginta]

Who said that? Seriously, do you not know how to parse English?

"Instruction includes how slaves developed skills, which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."​

This is explicitly NOT stating that this was the average slave experience.

Oh, I saw that ... and noted it.

Classic 'weasel words', explicitly included for the purpose of obfuscation and (im)plausible deniability. They were probably giggling when they wrote them.

Purposely chosen for exactly the sort of use you are putting them to. They will only satisfy the (nonexistent?) dubious ethics of the Repugnican true believer.

Those of us who actually do "know how to parse English" also know how to recognise the careful misuse of it for this sort of manipulation.

ETA: Also, it should be noted, I wasn't referring to the clause in the documents, I was referring to your rather selective choice of Frederick Douglass as an example. Which is entirely the kind of misdirection they were aiming for.

You serve them well.

 

[bruto]

Who said that? Seriously, do you not know how to parse English?

"Instruction includes how slaves developed skills, which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."​

This is explicitly NOT stating that this was the average slave experience.

Yes, but I really think it's disingenuous at best to omit the fact that the skills in question were for their personal benefit only either as a side effect (in the sense of being a more privileged slave, though still a slave), or as a consequence of breaking the law and rebelling against slavery itself at the risk of severe punishment or even murder.

You can spin anything into a personal benefit if you try. After all, we know that suffering ennobles, and blind people have good hearing, and Lovelace wrote immortal poetry from within those stone walls...

Slice it as you wish, but even if the slice is thin, it's an apology for slavery, an attempt to soften the reality of a piece of our history that was never justified and should remain forever shameful. I think that even if there's some trivial truth in it, the motive is nefarious and the result an odious intrusion of racism wrapped in stupidity.

The Fly

He was writing the History of Optimism
In Time of Madness. It was raining.
One of the local butcher's largest
Carrion fanciers kept pestering him.

There was a cat too watching the fly,
And a gouty-footed old woman
In a dirty bathrobe and frayed slippers
Bringing in a cup of pale tea.

With many sighs and long pauses
He found a bit of blue sky on the day of the
Massacre of the Innocents.
He found a couple of lovers,
A meadow strewn with flowers. ...

But he couldn't go on....O blue-winged,
shivering one, he whispered.
Some days it's like using a white cane
And seeing mostly shadows
As one gropes for the words that come next!

(Charles Simic, 1938-2023)

 

[Ziggurat]

Slice it as you wish, but even if the slice is thin, it's an apology for slavery

Have you actually read the curriculum? I don't think you have.

 

[Ziggurat]

Oh, I saw that ... and noted it.

Classic 'weasel words', explicitly included for the purpose of obfuscation and (im)plausible deniability.

It's fascinating to watch you try to extract meaning which isn't there while denying meaning which is.

 

[bruto]

Have you actually read the curriculum? I don't think you have.

I certainly have read the sentence you cite, "Instruction includes how slaves developed skills, which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."

Of course you can spin it to be true. After all, one of the skills slaves learned, no thanks to their masters perhaps, but some certainly did learn it, was the true meaning and value of freedom, and the art of fleeing through the woods and swamps, at the peril of their lives, to seek it. That was indeed a skill they learned which could be applied for their personal benefit. But I think if you consider that to be even close to the intention of the curriculum, you are whistling dixie indeed.

 

[dirtywick]

idk on the other hand conservatives love black people

 

[Stacyhs]

Which is still second hand, and still based on a single sentence.



Once sentence. That's it.



For one thing, it's not only limited to skills they learned as slaves. For those who escaped slavery or were freed, it includes skills they learned after becoming free.

But we don't actually need to go that far afield. Even confining ourselves to skills learned as a slave, Fredrick Douglas learned to read while he was still a slave. I don't really think I need to detail exactly how this skill benefited him in his life.

Again, read my link. None of this is supposed to excuse or minimize slavery. Rather, it's meant to celebrate the accomplishments of slaves who managed to do so much despite, not because of, their slavery.

I did. And it's really, really stupid.

INSKEEP: I think you're correct. You could even look at the movie "12 Years A Slave," which is a true story of a man who was enslaved who knew how to play the fiddle. People had different skills and used them in different ways and sometimes were able to make money for themselves while enslaved. That seems to be factually true. But the allegation here is that you were trying to make slavery seem nice, like a job training program. Did you intend to say that?

Northrup was born free in New York and learned to play the fiddle BEFORE he was kidnapped and sold 'down South' for god's sake.

ALLEN: When I look at that language, I see what Booker T. Washington meant when he entitled his autobiography "Up From Slavery" rather than "Down In Slavery." I see what Frederick Douglass meant when he described his slave mistress teaching him to read only at the beginning because his owner put a stop to it. But that small glimmer of light was enough to inspire him to turn it into a burning flame of illumination from which he benefited and his country benefited.

Douglas was incredibly intelligent and that thirst for knowledge was inherent in him despite the circumstances of being a slave. He was only taught the alphabet by his slave mistress, but he taught HIMSELF to read and write. It wasn't a damn 'benefit' of slavery!

ALLEN: I think Douglass saw inspiration in it. I think those who followed him saw inspiration in it. And more decisively, I think Douglass and Ida B. Wells in 1893 gave explicit testimony to that inspiration when they were protesting the exclusion of Africans from the Columbian Exposition and - in the midst of thousands of lynchings. And they celebrated the accomplishments of those post-slavery who had demonstrated their capacities and their skills. But most importantly, they hailed those accomplishments not only as the accomplishments of Black Americans, but the accomplishments of American principles. These are constantly repeated themes.

Do you see the words "post-slavery"? Nowhere does Douglass tout the benefits of skills learned DURING slavery. In fact, "Douglass took it as an opportunity, however small, to demonstrate the achievements of black Americans in the 28 years since the end of slavery"

Put. The. Shovel. Down.

 

[jrhowell]

Excerpt from a related story in today's Tampa Bay Times

Florida’s conservative PragerU teaching texts labeled ‘indoctrination’

TALLAHASSEE — Gov. Ron DeSantis repeatedly says he opposes indoctrination in schools. Yet his administration in early July approved materials from a conservative group that says it’s all about indoctrination and “changing minds.”

The Florida Department of Education determined that educational materials geared toward young children and high school students created by PragerU, a nonprofit co-founded by conservative radio host Dennis Prager, was in alignment with the state’s standards on how to teach civics and government to K-12 students.

The content — some of which is narrated by conservative personalities such as Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson — features cartoons, five-minute video history lessons and story-time shows for young children and is part of a brand called PragerU Kids. And the lessons share a common message: Being pro-American means aligning oneself to mainstream conservative talking points.

...

Some videos talk about the history of race relations and slavery. In one video, two kids travel back in time to meet Christopher Columbus, who tells them that he should not be judged for enslaving people because the practice was “no big deal” in his time. Columbus argued to the kids that he did not see a problem with it because “being taken as a slave is better than being killed.”

In another video titled “A Short History of Slavery” and narrated by Owens, she says that the first thing kids need to know is that “slavery was not invented by white people” and that it also took place in Africa, the Middle East and Asia. She also says “white people were the first to put an end to slavery” when it was abolished by Britain in 1834.

“After centuries of human slavery, white men led the world in putting an end to the abhorrent practice. That includes the 300,000 Union soldiers, overwhelmingly white, who died during the Civil War,” Owens says, while adding that “no one, regardless of skin color, stands guiltless,” noting that white slaves have also existed.

In a statement, Florida Department of Education spokesperson Cassie Palelis said the state agency “reviewed PragerU Kids and determined the material aligns to Florida’s revised civics and government standards.”

 

[Stacyhs]

Excerpt from a related story in today's Tampa Bay Times

All I needed to see was "Prager U".

 

[Ziggurat]

It wasn't a damn 'benefit' of slavery!

No ****, Sherlock. Nobody said there was a benefit of slavery to slaves. That is a misreading of the curriculum, and at this point the charitable interpretation is that it's deliberate on your part.

 

[Stacyhs]

No ****, Sherlock. Nobody said there was a benefit of slavery to slaves. That is a misreading of the curriculum, and at this point the charitable interpretation is that it's deliberate on your part.

REALLY? Nobody said that?

"Instruction includes how slaves developed skills, which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."

Stop digging, Zig.

 

[Stacyhs]

It's fascinating to see you invent intent out of whole cloth.

It's fascinating watching you spinning this.

 

[bruto]

In the quoted sources, I see that one of the presumed benefits noted is the skills that former slaves took advantage of after emancipation.

Holy ****, batman! The enslavers fought a long, bloody war to prevent that very thing from happening. Without going into the old history of war crimes and murders on top of enslavement, how can any sane person even think about even hinting that the skills slaves learned in slavery might be mitigated by the industry of those who escaped it? Not one iota of credit to the enslavers, or the institution of slavery itself is due to those who rebelled against their country and slaughtered thousands to prevent it.

Everything can be found to have an up side AFTER it happens and in spite of it. Not before, and not because. Noble last words are uttered by the victims of genocide, children intentionally blinded learn valuable begging skills, burning martyrs blaze with glory. This is an apt subject for a study of what humanity is. It is not a subject for the history of the crimes against it.