Because I was fully aware of that, BAC. … snip … I recall descriptions of Foster's insomnia, but not anything showing that it was particularly severe.
So you were "fully aware" of an FBI interview report that had Lisa Foster saying "FOSTER would get up in the morning and say to LISA FOSTER that he had not slept at all", and you didn't consider that severe insomnia? My goodness what insomnia could be worse than insomina where you don't sleep "at all"?
Because, in that particular post I was responding to, you were trying to argue that the reason Foster was given a high dosage of Desyrel (suitable for treating depression) and not the lower insomnia dose was that Foster's insomnia
You got it wrong again. Foster was NOT given "a high dose" of Desyrel, one "suitable for treating depression", and I NEVER suggested that he was. You are a LIAR. I have always stated that he was prescribed a low dose in the range that is clearly identified in the literature as being for insomnia … 50 to 150 mg at night. The pharmacist instructions said to take 1-3 50mg pills at night. His doctor clearly stated the medicine was for insomnia. And the effective dose for clinical depression (which is what Starr and many of you Vince Foster Truthers insist Foster had even though he didn't come close to meeting the DSM guidelines for that) is clearly identified in the literature as 300-400 mg per day (or even higher) in divided doses (i.e., not just at bedtime).
In our previous debates, you made the dishonest claims that 150mg is "the depression dose, not the insomnia dose" and that "insomnia dosages for trazodone are 25 to 50 mg, rarely exceeding 100mg." In fact, you said, right before I said "It is admitted that Foster was having a LOT of trouble sleeping" and you questioned that in your Truther-like fashion, that "His doctor gave him a prescription for an anti-depressant,
for a dosage higher than that normally given for insomnia" which is an outright lie … one that I had already debunked prior to your "It is? by who?" response. Here is the post where I made that statemetn:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4251875&postcount=243 . As anyone can see, by the time you asked "It is? by who?", many posts later, I had already supplied you nearly with a dozen sources that proved your initial claim about dosage utterly false. Here are some of them, again, just to illustrate to our readers how dishonest and Truther-like you were and are still acting, ANTPogo:
http://mental-health.emedtv.com/desyrel/desyrel-dosage.html "The recommended
starting Desyrel dose when treating depression is 150 mg per day (divided into two or three doses per day). … snip … Usually,
the dose of Desyrel for insomnia is lower, starting with Desyrel 25 mg or 50 mg at bedtime."
http://www.rxlist.com/desyrel-drug.htm "
DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of depression. ... snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days."
http://www.psychatlanta.com/documents/trazadone.pdf "
When prescribed for insomnia and sleep disturbance, the usual dose for trazodone is 50–100 mg at bedtime, but some patients may need doses as high as 150–200 mg. ... snip ...
For treatment of depression, trazodone is gradually increased to the effective therapeutic dosage of 300–400 mg, although some individuals may require dosages up to 600 mg."
http://books.google.com/books?id=4g...t#v=onepage&q=desyrel insomnia dosage&f=false "Symptom-Focused Psychiatric Drug Therapy for Managed Care, By Sonny Joseph ... snip ...
For treatment of insomnia and as an adjunctive medication, the dosage range is 50 to 150 mg, given at bedtime for insomnia, and in divided doses for other purposes."
http://www.questia.com/googleSchola...r3CYYR!-736511869!1551774961?docId=5006792241 "
Two of the most commonly used medications for insomnia in the United States are … snip … and the antidepressant trazodone (Desyrel[TM]) used in the range of 25 to 150 mg, which is lower than its effective antidepressant dose."
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drugs/rx/r...es1128.html&contentName=Desyrel&contentId=173 "Desyrel is prescribed for the treatment of depression. ... snip ... The usual starting dosage is a total of 150 milligrams per day, divided into 2 or more smaller doses. Your doctor may increase your dose by 50 milligrams per day every 3 or 4 days. Total dosage should not exceed 400 milligrams per day, divided into smaller doses."
http://www.inhousedrugstore.com/anti-depressants/desyrel.html "The daily dosage is usually administered in three divided doses. … snip … Depression - The optimal dosage is between 300 - 400 mg/day. It is suggested that a starting dose of 150 mg/day is given for the first week, increasing to 300 mg/day or higher according to the clinical response (600 mg/day dosage has been reported)."
http://www.realmentalhealth.com/medications/trazodone.asp "For relief of depression. ... snip ... [b/]An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for out patients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.
http://www.druglib.com/druginfo/desyrel/indications_dosage/ "DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of
depression. ...snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for outpatients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses."
http://books.google.com/books?id=jG...esult&resnum=3&ct=result#v=onepage&q=&f=false "The main indication for the use of trazodone is major depressive disorder. There is a clear dose-response relationship, with
dosages of 250 to 600 mg a day being necessary for trazodone to have therapeutic benefit."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/508820 "The dose of trazodone needed to induce and maintain sleep is not well understood.
Thus, clinicians use anywhere from 25 mg to 150 mg taken at bedtime as a hypnotic dose."
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc...esult&resnum=6&ct=result#v=onepage&q=&f=false "Mood Disorders By S. Nassir Ghaemi ... snip ...
Trazodone was dosed similarly to TCAs, requiring about 300 mg/day or more for effect, which often led to sedation. As a result,
trazodone soon developed a niche as a sleep aid, especially in low doses (25 to 150 mg/day)."
http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/diagnosis/organ_system/psychiatric/insomnia.html "
Trazodone (25-200 mg qhs) most common antidepressant used for treatment of insomnia."
http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=2842&t=CFIDS_FM "
Drugs commonly used as sleep aids ... Desyrel 50-150 mg"
http://www.medicinenet.com/trazodone/article.htm "
For the treatment of depression, the dose for adults is 150-600 mg per day. The initial starting dose usually is 150 mg per day. ... snip ... Doses of 25-75 mg are prescribed for insomnia."
To summarize the above (all of which was posted before you made your dishonest claims and asked your Truther-like question), the recommended STARTING dose for treating depression with that medicine is not 50 mg/day (Foster's starting dose) but 150 mg/day. And the 150 mg/day starting dose is to be divided into several doses a day rather than one dose prescribed at bedtime, as Foster's prescription specified. For depression, the starting dosage is to be increased every 4 to 5 days ... with the therapeutic range higher than 150 mg/day … much higher … more in the 300 - 400 mg range and as high as 600mg/day. For insomnia, the recommended starting dose is 25-50 mg/day with dosages up to 150 mg/day taken at bedtime.
Just like Foster was prescribed by his doctor, who said he was being treated for insomnia.
You, ANTPogo, were displaying and continue to display all the dishonesty of a 9/11 Truther.
I was asking you to try and back that claim up
The above proves that statement a lie. At the time you made that statement I had already provided the above evidence as to what the insomnia and depression dosages are, ANTPogo. Check the thread out for yourself.
Foster's doctor was concerned enough about depression in his patient to ask him, point-blank, if he was indeed depressed.
Again, you are dishonest.
First of all, here is what the report of the FBI interview with Foster's doctor, Dr. Watkins, shortly after Foster's death, said (
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_/ai_17817574 ):
"[Watkins recalled that] Foster sounded a little tired . . . Watkins prescribed desyrel, 50 milligram tablets. . . . Watkins knew that it took 10 days to two weeks to take effect [as an antidepressant] but helps with insomnia, sometimes the very first day. . . . He felt it was important for Foster to start sleeping better and thought if he got some rest he would feel a lot better. He did not think that Foster was significantly depressed nor had Foster given the impression that he was 'in crisis.' From what Foster told him, Foster's condition sounded mild and situational. . . . Foster was not one to come to Watkins with stress-related problems. . . . Lisa [Foster's widow] told him that they had gone away and had a nice weekend on July 17-18. . . . He had the distinct impression . . . that Lisa was taken completely by surprise by this."
That does
not say or even imply that the doctor told the FBI he had asked Foster "point-blank" if he was depressed. It only says he did not think Foster was significantly depressed. It says his condition "sounded" mild and situational.
Beyond that, the doctor made no further statements ... until, that is, Starr claimed that the doctor provided him with a note he'd typed shortly after the death, a note that happens to say Foster felt depressed. Here's what that note said according to Starr's report:
"I talked to Vince on 7/19/93, at which time he complained of anorexia and insomnia. He had no GI (gastrointestinal) symptoms. We discussed the possibility of taking Axid or Zantac to help with any ulcer symptoms as he was under a lot of stress. He was concerned about the criticism they were getting and the long hours he was working at the White House. He did feel that he had some mild depression. I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg."
Again, it says Foster complained about insomnia, not depression. Again, any depression he did have was described as only "mild", not "clinical". And the medication and dosage was one routinely used for insomnia ... not depression. And while it does say that Foster "felt he had mild depression", you no idea how that topic came up during the doctor's contact with Foster.
And, we have good reason to suspect the note of being another fabrication that Starr hoped would bolster his depression fiction. Again we have a piece of *evidence* that curiously never turned up during the first two *investigations* of Foster's death but was only discovered by Starr. And this is the same Starr who concocted the green oven mitt evidence that none of you want to discuss, tampered with Lisa Foster's FBI interview statement, lied about Foster losing weight, lied about Foster's family and friends noting Foster's depression, lied by claiming Foster's depression was "clinical", lied about Foster being prescribed antidepressant medication (he was "prescribed" insomnia medication), lied when he said "Foster had called a family doctor for antidepressant medication" (Foster called for help in sleeping), and by the way, also lied about the Filegate FBI files having been returned to the FBI. Given all that, why do you believe this piece of evidence is even authentic?
In fact, you yourself admitted that Foster's doctor was concerned about Foster's depression, and considered his level of insomnia a symptom of that depression.
LIAR. Nothing I posted admitted any such thing. Go ahead, Truther, try to prove that claim by quoting me. Bet you can't.
Like I said before, ANTPogo, I have no interest in going around and around with you again on this. I've already made my case and you've made yours, although as I think folks can see, yours is based on disinformation and outright lies. But like a good Truther, you just can't let go and will regurgitate the same false statements over and over and over, no matter what facts are posted to you. I leave it up to our readers to study this and the other threads and see that everything you claim about Rodriguez and Knowlton was debunked by me, just as I debunked your lies about the medication, dosage and supposed doctor contact. I will not waste the time hitting my head again and again against a brick wall. It's why I've stopped posting on 9/11 Truther threads. You can't debate Truthers. You can only show them for what they are, and leave it at that, as I've done with you and a few others here. Have a good day.
You're bordering on the pathological here, BAC.
LOL! Sure, Truther, Sure.
