The Curious Case of Abdulrahman Zietoun

[Psi Baba]

It's pretty obvious what happened here. Katrina was a terrible disaster and therefore had to be blamed on someone. I mean, it couldn't be our fault! Some evidoer busted those levees! Most likely candidates: Al Qaeda or Taliban. If they did it, they're probably still in the area. Just go look for some muslims and there you go. Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job. Keep Fear Alive!

(I'm only barely joking here.)

 

[cwalner]

It's pretty obvious what happened here. Katrina was a terrible disaster and therefore had to be blamed on someone. I mean, it couldn't be our fault! Some evidoer busted those levees! Most likely candidates: Al Qaeda or Taliban. If they did it, they're probably still in the area. Just go look for some muslims and there you go. Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job. Keep Fear Alive!

(I'm only barely joking here.)

considering the context of the rest of your post, I choose to interpret this as an extremely racist comment from GWB. It is far more amusing that way.

 

[Pardalis]

What do you mean by that?

This has nothing at all to do with Islam. All that muslims have done in this story is existing, and trying to help other people.

All that the great, incomparable United States of America and its wonderful, tolerant, just and open-minded citizens have done in this story is being moronic racist jackasses.

Give me just one reason, one teeny-tiny reason, to be upset with Muslims because of this story, or NOT to be upset with the nation who lets this happen.

Are you done?

Glad to see you finally come out of the closet as a raging Anti-American. It's a sad story, but to see you using this for your own pathological hatred of an entire country is despicable.

You're forgetting that it's this this same "vile and evil" USA that allowed this guy to be vindicated and be able to tell his atrocious story freely in a well publicized and praised book. There are even plans to make a movie about it.

 

[TraneWreck]

Schrodinger's Cat-
Your OP seems to suggest that
1.There are good Muslims.
and
2. There are some seriously dumb (and/or bigoted) people in the Louisiana "Corrective System" (or whatever we should call it).

Now, neither fact is new to me, or, I expect, to you, so I wonder what is the point you want to make? If it's simply that this man deserves an apology and some others deserve a boot up the backside,then I agree; but is there something beyond that which I'm missing?

She can answer on her own, but It seems to me that just being aware of this sort of injustice occuring in our country is important.

Obama has consistently invoked executive authority, war powers, and the state secrets doctrine to keep these types of fiascos secret. There's a significant portion of our electorate that thinks everyone in GITMO or anyone finding themselves in the extraordinary rendition program are "bad guys," and thus don't really care whether courts can check the president's authority.

Publicizing a case like the one above is necessary to ending these programs.

 

[TraneWreck]

Are you done?

Glad to see you finally come out of the closet as a raging Anti-American. It's a sad story, but to see you using this for your own pathological hatred of an entire country is despicable.

Once again, the problem is not that a Muslim man was deplorably abused by an unfair system that targets men of his religion, it's that the people doing the abuse might be called bigots.

Racism is nothing compared to the horror of being called a racist...

 

[Pardalis]

Once again, the problem is not that a Muslim man was deplorably abused by an unfair system that targets men of his religion, it's that the people doing the abuse might be called bigots.

Racism is nothing compared to the horror of being called a racist...

And this is true for the entire USA?

They have an African America at the White House if you haven't noticed.

 

[TraneWreck]

And this is true for the entire USA?

They have an African America at the White House if you haven't noticed.

And that African American has defended and expanded the programs that led to the above tragedy. The American public, largely based on ignorance, supports these programs overwhelmingly.

In what way isn't the United States responsible for this tragedy? We elect leaders. The portion of the public that didn't vote for Obama largely voted for Bush, thus the two presidents that have advanced justifications for these sorts of programs were voted in by the vast majority of the electorate.

If you're arguing that it's not the case that 100% of Americans support the programs, then that's just sort of trivial. Everyone is aware of that, yet we still understand what sentences of the form, "Iran is developing nukes," mean. Hell, the argument is stronger when the government isn't representative.

No, we are responsible for that man's treatment.

 

[TragicMonkey]

And as for me blaming the people... I hear the US is a democracy of sorts. Doesn´t that mean you sorta kinda get to choose your authorities now and then, more or less? I mean, shouldn´t it then be possible for those of you who abhor that sort of thing to make sure that kind of people doesn´t get in a position of power?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you German?

 

[ddt]

I wonder if this sequence of events was partly a bureaucratic CYA effort.

They arrested this man who didn't do anything wrong. This gave them two options, let him go and look like idiots, or throw charges at him that you know won't stick. Why choose the latter? To (1) look like diligent protectors of the public, and (2) draw out the steps toward release so you don't get a large amount of bad press all at once (small doses with some FUD (new charges) thrown in may be easier to manage).

Reasonable hypothesis or CT territory?

IMHO, a reasonable hypothesis. When I look at how the Dutch police and justice system acts when confronted with a (probable) miscarriage of justice, they also have a very hard time to acknowledge they f****d up. Or look at how the British justice system reacted to the wrong convictions of IRA terrorists. In that respect, this is not a uniquely American case. What makes the behaviour especially moronic in this case is that (a) there was a reasonable excuse, in the exceptional circumstances during Katrina, and (b) they charged him of the ludicrous charge of "looting his own home", as if that's even possible.

Besides that, several of his rights were violated - wrong food, no medical attention, no phone call, his wife wasn't given information where he was due to be arraigned. Those responsible for that should be criminally prosecuted (and disgracefully fired). Not only those who directly executed those violations, but also their superiors up the command chain who must have known of that. That that hasn't yet happened is methinks the most worrying aspect.

ETA: And it would behoove the government if they spontaneously came forward with a reasonable offer to compensate Zeitoun and the others for the hardships they suffered. Not that I've ever heard of a government doing so...

 

[Pardalis]

And that African American has defended and expanded the programs that led to the above tragedy. The American public, largely based on ignorance, supports these programs overwhelmingly.

How are you sure that it's the program's fault, and not a few people who have abused it? The US was attacked on 9/11, and the reinforcement in security since then has foiled many attacks and arrested quite a few real terrorists.

There needs to be an inquiry into what happened before you can conclude that the whole system is at fault. But I guess you don't need investigations, you just know the truth, right?

Everyone is aware of that, yet we still understand what sentences of the form, "Iran is developing nukes," mean.

I have no idea how Iran's nuclear program got into this discussion. Maybe you can explain what the hell this has to do with anything?

No, we are responsible for that man's treatment.

If that makes you feel better.

 

[TraneWreck]

How are you sure that it's the program's fault, and not a few people who have abused it? The US was attacked on 9/11, and the reinforcement in security since then has foiled many attacks and arrested quite a few real terrorists.

There needs to be an inquiry into what happened before you can conclude that the whole system is at fault. But I guess you don't need investigations, you just know the truth, right?

The system is at fault because that inquiry cannot happen. Obama just invoked the states secret doctrine to shut down a similar investigation.

I'm sure there are some real bastards locked away. We know for a fact that there were a lot of very innocent people eaten up in that program.

Procedurally it's a nightmare because there's no due process, there's no oversight, there's not even any knowledge of it happening.

Any cursory understanding of legal history reveals that the only way to ensure a modicum of justice and eliminate abuse is to secure just procedure. Our nation is founded on such procedural rights. These programs make a mockery of that national commitment. They've led to incredible abuse and will continue to do so as long as they exist.

I have no idea how Iran's nuclear program got into this discussion. Maybe you can explain what the hell this has to do with anything?

You were upset by the notion that "America" harmed this man. I pointed out that due to the representative nature of our system, the polls in favor of the programs that led to the abuse, and the fact that in our binary system, representatives of both polls defended the program, "America" really is responsible.

One argument against that would be the trivial claim that not every single American supports the program. Obviously. By analogy, not every single Iranian wants to develop nuclear weapons, and we recognize that saying, "Iran wants a nuke," is not equivalent in meaning to, "Every single Iranian person wants to develop a nuke."

If that makes you feel better.

It makes me feel much, much worse. Knowledge that it will continue to happen under the president whose campaign I worked for in part to end these sorts of abuses makes me very angry.

 

[Weak Kitten]

I think it is important to focus on the one ray of hope and light in this story. This good, kind Muslim man has not let the terrible acts of a confused bureaucracy and a few hateful people destroy him. He continues to be a good, kind person and refuses to hate the people around him or his country.

It doesn't matter what religion, race, or nationality you are, that is true strength. To not hate innocent bystanders because a few idiots who look a bit like them abused their power to make you suffer. I am happy to hear of someone who is able to direct their anger at the correct targets, this is such a rare thing these days.

 

[Pardalis]

The system is at fault because that inquiry cannot happen. Obama just invoked the states secret doctrine to shut down a similar investigation.

Really? I didn't know that. How can they fix the problem if they can't investigate what went wrong? That sucks.

 

[TraneWreck]

Really? I didn't know that. How can they fix the problem if they can't investigate what went wrong? That sucks.

I don't know if you're being glib or sincere, but on the off-chance you're actually interested in learning about this, here are a couple of articles on the recent invocation of the states secret doctrine:

In response to the lawsuit filed by Anwar Awlaki's father asking a court to enjoin the President from assassinating his son, a U.S. citizen, without any due process, the administration late last night, according to The Washington Post, filed a brief asking the court to dismiss the lawsuit without hearing the merits of the claims. That's not surprising: both the Bush and Obama administrations have repeatedly insisted that their secret conduct is legal but nonetheless urge courts not to even rule on its legality. But what's most notable here is that one of the arguments the Obama DOJ raises to demand dismissal of this lawsuit is "state secrets": in other words, not only does the President have the right to sentence Americans to death with no due process or charges of any kind, but his decisions as to who will be killed and why he wants them dead are "state secrets," and thus no court may adjudicate their legality.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/25/secrecy/index.html

Finally, the government asserts that the program itself is a state secret.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/6313624/obamas-hit-squad-above-and-beyond-the-law.thtml

The merit of each detention cannot be reviewed, the authority to detain, and now assassinate, cannot be challenged, and the program itself is a state secret.

The result of such a deviant legal structure should be obvious, but the OP describes the ramifications on a personal level.

 

[Pardalis]

I don't know if you're being glib or sincere, but on the off-chance you're actually interested in learning about this, here are a couple of articles on the recent invocation of the states secret doctrine:


http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/25/secrecy/index.html


http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/6313624/obamas-hit-squad-above-and-beyond-the-law.thtml

The merit of each detention cannot be reviewed, the authority to detain, and now assassinate, cannot be challenged, and the program itself is a state secret.

The result of such a deviant legal structure should be obvious, but the OP describes the ramifications on a personal level.

This seems to be a completely different case.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Schrodinger's Cat-
Your OP seems to suggest that
1.There are good Muslims.
and
2. There are some seriously dumb (and/or bigoted) people in the Louisiana "Corrective System" (or whatever we should call it).

Now, neither fact is new to me, or, I expect, to you, so I wonder what is the point you want to make? If it's simply that this man deserves an apology and some others deserve a boot up the backside,then I agree; but is there something beyond that which I'm missing?

Honestly, I didn't post this with a specific point to be made. I just read this and thought (perhaps naively), "Holy crap! I can't believe that happened!" I really just posted it because I found the incident so shocking.

Though, I suppose if there IS a point to be made, this would be a good argument for why denying due process to "terrorism" suspects is not a good thing. Because it's not like real terrorists are the only ones affected by such laws.

I read many articles about this in the last couple days. What struck me most was how afraid this man was. He wasn't allowed a lawyer. No one knew where he was or what had happened to him. While incarcerated, he was so afraid because the government could have done anything with him, like send him to Guantanamo, or to some other country for interrogation, and no one would have known.

I'm very impressed though that he still has not lost his positive outlook despite this experience. That's another reason I found the story so compelling. This fellow is truly a testament to the human spirit. When he had every reason to become hateful and bitter, he instead was able to remain a reasonable, compassionate man who recognized that the actions of his persecutors did not reflect Americans as a whole. Being honest with myself, I do not think I would have been able to remain such an optimistic and reasonable person if put in the same situation.

Also Caine...I've read a lot about this, and there really does not seem to be anything more to this story other than racist National guardsmen arrested some guy for being Muslim.

 

[Chaos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you German?

How is this relevant?

 

[Chaos]

And this is true for the entire USA?

They have an African America at the White House if you haven't noticed.

Yes... and they have millions upon million of good, honest American patriots who fly into temper tantrums the second anyone mentions that possibility that their deity, The United States of America, might perhaps possibly not be perfect.

And, I suppose you didn´t notice with your blinders on, but this African American in the White House has been and is the target of an unprecedented non-stop barrage of hatred, lies and racism for all those good, honest American patriots out there.

 

[TragicMonkey]

How is this relevant?

I dunno, dim recollection of democracy not always working out so quite the best people are in power. I might be imagining it.

 

[TraneWreck]

This seems to be a completely different case.

Yes it is. It's the latest case, and a massive extension of the authority that lead to the situation in the OP. It's a clear example of the docrines in action, which is why it's instructive.