The Concept of Resistance Starch : discuss

[macdoc]

you will still end up with all the calories in the end (through fermentation), and this practice will not prevent you from getting diabetes.

exactly .....but for a type one that peak is critical as there is no body responce and insulin must be given.
A high of 12 versus a high of 22 is very different.

 

[casebro]

Macdoc, what is your metric? mmol/l and mg/dl are the usual. The graph above shows a difference of 6.2-7,2 mmol, which I converted to umm 120 vs 138 mg/dl. That's about 15% difference, you are talking 80% ?

 

[macdoc]

mmol - my kid has been above 30 a few times tho once he had to hospitalized....5-7 is the target zone with expected bumps as he eats.
That graph is a normal person's response....a type one responds very differently.
He has a real time monitor now that has been great as it picks up trending.

Here is a good article on the risks of spiking.

http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/articles/high-blood-glucose/strike-the-spike-ii/all/

take away

The long-term effects of high blood glucose levels after meals have been studied extensively. For people with Type 1 diabetes, significant after-meal rises have been shown to produce earlier onset of kidney disease and to accelerate the progression of existing retinopathy, the eye problem most commonly associated with diabetes. In people with Type 2 diabetes, high blood glucose after meals is a risk factor for cardiovascular problems.

But the problems are not limited to long-term complications. Any time blood glucose levels rise particularly high, even temporarily, quality of life suffers. Energy decreases, brain function falters, physical and athletic abilities become diminished, and moods become altered. An Australian study of young people with Type 1 diabetes indicated that short-term high blood glucose negatively affects thinking performance, coordination, and emotions and moods. A study conducted on people with Type 2 diabetes showed that sharp rises in blood glucose level slowed mental performance, lowered attention, reduced energy levels, and led to feelings of sadness and tension.

Additionally, the effects of a bout of post-meal high blood glucose do not go away immediately when blood glucose returns to normal. Each episode of high blood glucose can alter the way certain genes function, resulting in the production of harmful chemicals called free radicals, which cause inflammation and damage to the linings of the blood vessels for hours, if not days. So clearly, post-meal spikes represent a challenge worthy of attention.

he's not much fun when he is high or low but a sweet heart ( like this morning ) when he's in the safe zone.
Type ones are an odd sort of disabled people as they don't appear any different so often do not get the disability benefits that other conditions garner.
Pumps and now real time monitoring have made huge improvements in outcomes but of course management for teens and twenties is a challenge with lifestyle and growing bodies making it all that more difficult.

Things like not securing your $4,000 pump and when going on a personal watercraft and coming back in tears....."it's gone"
Slid out of that one with a lucky find of a medical sample pump that went for $400. ( was better than the one he lost ).

We're going cross country on mcycles next June and sorting diabetes supplies and keeping insulin cool is a bit of a challenge. He's done okay managing ......could do better.

One anecdote....all this talk about waiting times in emergency rooms....well you walk in and tell the nurse you have a Type One with a sugar problem it's front of the line in a heartbeat...they know how time critical it can be.

 

[casebro]

mmol - my kid has been above 30 a few times tho once he had to hospitalized....5-7 is the target zone with expected bumps as he eats.
He has a real time monitor now that has been great as it picks up trending.

And you feel that the 1.2 difference shown for resistant starch is important? No data shows that it makes your 12 to 22 difference. Get realistic.

The UKPDS showed that for Type II, there is no advantage to very close control. An A1C less than 7 is fine. Tighter control doesn't even save enough on negative effects to pay for the additional drugs and supplies. And requires an emergency service about once a year. That study was for the 90% of diabetics, type II, and not growing children. Still, your son has to cover the carbs, no mater how slow they get processed. And he needs to stop cheating on his diet, but he probably learned that already. The hard way.

I worry more about lows. I don't want 39 mg/dl ever again.

 

[casebro]

Related starch chemistry question. GF bread

Most recipes for gluten free bread use about 25% starch. Usually one of Tapioca starch, Potato starch, or corn starch. I've found a recipe with wheat bread like texture and good flavor. But it turns back into gooey batter after a couple days. Even if kept wrapped in plastic or a zip lock bag.

I'm thinking that when cooked, starches make a change that includes binding to water. But later the water leaves the ummm, not molecule, ummm agglomeration? suspension? and the bread softens. It's a well known phenom in the GF world.

Next batch I'll leave the starch out. I may get crackers instead of bread. Or a hard foam block.

Is my guess at the chemistry proper?

 

[macdoc]

And you feel that the 1.2 difference shown for resistant starch is important? No data shows that it makes your 12 to 22 difference. Get realistic.

I really don't think you understand how fast a peak occurs when there is no insulin to counteract it.

A normal person and even a Type II is working within a tensioned system where the highs and lows are bounded.

Here is the bounded system

The reason blood glucose tends to spike after eating in many people with diabetes is a simple matter of timing. In a person who doesn’t have diabetes, eating foods containing carbohydrate causes two important reactions in the pancreas: the immediate release of insulin into the bloodstream, and the release of a hormone called amylin.
The insulin starts working almost immediately (to move glucose out of the bloodstream and into cells) and finishes its job in a matter of minutes.

The amylin keeps food from reaching the small intestine too quickly (where the nutrients are absorbed into the bloodstream). As a result, the moment blood glucose starts to rise, insulin is there to sweep the incoming glucose into the body’s cells.
In most cases, the after-meal blood glucose rise is barely noticeable.

A Type one is not....highs are infinite to death - so are lows to coma within minutes if fast acting sugar is not provided. On a really bad low a finger full of honey will bring him from just about seizing to completely normal in 3-4 minutes. 3 to 6+

However, in people with diabetes, the situation is like that of a batter with very slow reflexes facing a pitcher who throws 98-mph fastballs: The timing is all fouled up. Rapid-acting insulin that is injected (or infused by a pump) at mealtimes takes approximately 15 minutes to start working, 60–90 minutes to “peak,” or reach maximum effectiveness, and 4 hours or more to finish working. Meanwhile, amylin is either produced in insufficient amounts or not at all, so the movement of food from the stomach to the intestines is not slowed the way it should be. As a result, food digests even faster than usual. This combination of slower insulin and faster food can cause the blood glucose level to rise quite high soon after eating.
Once the mealtime insulin finally kicks in, the high is followed by a sharp drop.

http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/articles/high-blood-glucose/strike-the-spike-ii/all/

Quite high can mean 20+ (got to 27 last week ) and then drop to 4.....all witin a couple of hours.
A slower hit from resistant starch could make that a 12 dropping to 6 as the insulin kicks in.

He was having a big fight with sugar levels the last few weeks with highs to high 20s and rapid drops - discovered caffiene was doing it.

We can literally see these changes as they occur in real time - he has real time blood glucose monitor

http://www.medtronicdiabetes.com/treatment-and-products/continuous-glucose-monitoring

There are so many factors - exercise, time of day ( changing metabolic rate ), food types and glycemic factors not only total glycemic but as seen how fast it acts.
Even different sugar types, fructose, glucose have different uptake times...so for a lowfruit juice is one of the better ones tho glucose tablets or gel are norm...and a Glucagon pen just in case tho I've not had to use one.

Glucagon

If left untreated, hypoglycemia may lead to a seizure or unconsciousness (passing out, a coma). In this case, someone else must take over.

Glucagon is a hormone that stimulates your liver to release stored glucose into your bloodstream when your blood glucose levels are too low. Injectable glucagon kits are used as a medication to treat someone with diabetes that has become unconscious from a severe insulin reaction. Glucagon kits are available by prescription.

- See more at: http://www.diabetes.org/living-with...oglycemia-low-blood.html#sthash.GBLWwgCL.dpuf

Because we have the testing kits around I test myself once in a while thinking I might be a bit low or high but 5.5 - 5.7 - so I quit poking the finger.

Kid.....all over the map tho much better this week than last.

Type Ones really bear little resemblance to Type II sufferers and parallels cannot be drawn.

Type II has sloppy bounding. Type I boundaries are death at either end.

 

[casebro]

I tried another thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287895 to discuss why "wheat sensitivity" might be a problem with something lie an allergy to the plant hormones or enzymes that are released during the rising of yeast breads.

My reactions are blood pressure spikes that bring on chest pains and angina. three angioplasties w/ seven stents at 18 month intervals, NONE in eight years of being gluten free. That is an 500 percent improvement vs Statin's 30%. My worst triggers are "Modified food starch", soy sauce, and Malto-dextrin.

(eta- I just compared the carbs of soy sau=ce made with wheat vs without. The wheat kind has 40% more carbs.)

Lately I have tried wheat flour biscuits and pancakes. They had a very minimal effect, nothing like a meal of Pizza and Beer which requires nitro tabs. Fresh hot potatoes don't bother me, I haven't tried pasta.

I've also compared the effects of White Rice Flour vs 'Sweet" or 'Glutinous' rice flour. The "Glutenous" means it has longer chain starches, NOT wheat protein type gluten. The regular rice flour gave me mild symptoms, the longer chain stuff did not.

I'm type II Diabetic on insulin. But the symptoms happen the day after the ingestion, so I don't think the sugar spike is the problem.

So I really am thinking my problem might lie in the starch of wheat, not the protein.

Hmmmm, the starches feed the germs in our guts. "Resistant starches" would feed different germs farther along. Maybe it is a biota problem? Short chains feed something that gives off a detrimental product, long chains do not?

I can live the way I am going, but when my BP meds wear off my pressure spikes. 195/80 is not uncommon at wake up in the A.M., regardless of what carbs I eat. I think.

 

[Planigale]

That's not true, I have done extensive research on this subject and there are wild fruits both sweeter and less sweet than our hybridized versions. This appears to be a popular but unfounded belief among certain circles.

I have to therefore ask you for evidence for your claim that fruit is much sweeter than it was millions of years ago.

Here is an article partially supporting my contentions:

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/

If you ever find wild strawberries, they are way sweeter than farmed.