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The Case of the Missing E3

WildCat said:
It doesn't say there was an E-3 over DC at 1430. It says an E-3 was diverted to DC at 1430.

Isn't it possible the E-3 took an hour or more to arrive over DC?
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Did you miss the 1439 'on station' entry?
 
Dog Town said:
Hmmmm...thought that 1430 was 2:30pm?
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It is, of course. If we are talking local time.

I've been trying to figure out what it could mean otherwise.

14:30 greenwich mean time?? That would be 10:30 Washington, DC time on September 11 2001.
 
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16.5 said:
It is, of course. If we are talking local time.

I've been trying to figure out what it could mean otherwise.

14:30 greenwich mean time?? That would be 10:30 Washington, DC time on September 11 2001.
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eta: stupid daylight saving time
 
Now, I will admit that AWACS and NEADS, and all those other alphabet things are not my area of knowledge, but is it possible that the radar images for those aricraft have been removed to keep their flight plan classified?

I mean, we know that E-3's fly, but could it have been removed to prevent anyone from knowing their typical range, speed, etc?

I dunno other than that.
 
triforcharity said:
Now, I will admit that AWACS and NEADS, and all those other alphabet things are not my area of knowledge, but is it possible that the radar images for those aricraft have been removed to keep their flight plan classified?

I mean, we know that E-3's fly, but could it have been removed to prevent anyone from knowing their typical range, speed, etc?

I dunno other than that.
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I can think of only a few things that would be classified, but their flight plan/route of flight (after the fact) would not be one of them.

Some equipment on the aircraft would be classified along with their schedule/flight plan PRIOR TO a mission. However, I can think of no reason their presence (after the fact) would not be on a radar archive. Very little could be gleamed from that that's not already public knowledge..
 
But what if they were talking 1430 local time and not UTC? That's 2:30 pm in DC. John, have you checked the tracks to see if there's any indication of an E3 within range of DC around 2:30 local time?

Speaking from a military perspective, most people tend to write the time on their logs as whatever the local time is, so if that was written by someone at NEADS, they'd likely be writing in local time rather than UTC. The EQUIPMENT may record it as UTC (in which case it would say 1930 on the track rather than 1430) but the person recording in the log would write it as their own local time. In fact, is NEADS even in the EST zone? You might be looking at 1530 local time in DC if NEADS is in the next time zone over.

Can you check that out and get back to us, John? I'd be interested to know if there is the presence of an E-3 around 1430 local time.
 
Sabrina said:
But what if they were talking 1430 local time and not UTC? That's 2:30 pm in DC. John, have you checked the tracks to see if there's any indication of an E3 within range of DC around 2:30 local time?

Speaking from a military perspective, most people tend to write the time on their logs as whatever the local time is, so if that was written by someone at NEADS, they'd likely be writing in local time rather than UTC. The EQUIPMENT may record it as UTC (in which case it would say 1930 on the track rather than 1430) but the person recording in the log would write it as their own local time. In fact, is NEADS even in the EST zone? You might be looking at 1530 local time in DC if NEADS is in the next time zone over.

Can you check that out and get back to us, John? I'd be interested to know if there is the presence of an E-3 around 1430 local time.
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Neads is in Upstate NY and it is in the Eastern Time Zone.

ETA: Rome, NY
 
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Personally I find it likely that the E-3 was diverted AFTER the fact to monitor for any further possible flights, so a timeframe of around 2:30 EST seems likely to me. I don't think all flights were grounded yet at that time, so there was still the possibility of another hijacked flight. Plus, who's to say in all the confusion that we might not have been attacked from outside the US if we weren't watching?
 
Sabrina said:
Personally I find it likely that the E-3 was diverted AFTER the fact to monitor for any further possible flights, so a timeframe of around 2:30 EST seems likely to me. I don't think all flights were grounded yet at that time, so there was still the possibility of another hijacked flight. Plus, who's to say in all the confusion that we might not have been attacked from outside the US if we weren't watching?
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Look at the rest of the log and the events recorded. The time was OBVIOUSLY recorded in UTC.
 
Sabrina said:
But what if they were talking 1430 local time and not UTC? That's 2:30 pm in DC. John, have you checked the tracks to see if there's any indication of an E3 within range of DC around 2:30 local time?

Speaking from a military perspective, most people tend to write the time on their logs as whatever the local time is, so if that was written by someone at NEADS, they'd likely be writing in local time rather than UTC. The EQUIPMENT may record it as UTC (in which case it would say 1930 on the track rather than 1430) but the person recording in the log would write it as their own local time. In fact, is NEADS even in the EST zone? You might be looking at 1530 local time in DC if NEADS is in the next time zone over.

Can you check that out and get back to us, John? I'd be interested to know if there is the presence of an E-3 around 1430 local time.
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I'm pretty sure UTC is being recorded. In log you see:

14:07 - Bomb on board UAL93 over Pittsburgh
14:15 - UAL93 down north of Camp David (Bomb)

The general public knew about UAL93 being down by 10:30 EST. I'm sure NEADS knew before 2:15pm.


ETA: Reheat beat me to it.
 
Sabretooth said:
I'm pretty sure UTC is being recorded. In log you see:

14:07 - Bomb on board UAL93 over Pittsburgh
14:15 - UAL93 down north of Camp David (Bomb)

The general public knew about UAL93 being down by 10:30 EST. I'm sure NEADS knew before 2:15pm.


ETA: Reheat beat me to it.
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Again though, we don't know if this is information that is mere speculation on the part of the person keeping the log or the people who are telling him what needs to be recorded or not. The name next to it is SGT Perry; I truly don't know ANY military people who record logs in UTC. Now granted, I don't know what NEADS requires in that regard, but I find it hard to believe UTC is being used.

I may be wrong; NEADS may very well require it. I don't know. My point is, it is theoretically possible that they are referring to events well after the fact and including speculation on the part of the people in the room and are also recording things that are happening real time. I'd just like John to check it out and see if there's anything within his range of 150 nm around 2:30 local time that might match an E-3.
 
Right now, all I see is a wild goose chase. What is the significance of an E3 not being found in radar tracking of the immediate area around DC at ~1430 UTC?

Whether BCR finds the E3 or not, what's the point?
 
Aboard ship we used local time. If it was GMT we used the 'Z' for Zulu Time suffix
 
Sabrina said:
My point is, it is theoretically possible that they are referring to events well after the fact and including speculation on the part of the people in the room and are also recording things that are happening real time. I'd just like John to check it out and see if there's anything within his range of 150 nm around 2:30 local time that might match an E-3.
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No Sabrina, NEADS and the FAA use UTC to avoid confusion over time zones. Download the entire log and you'll see this is the case. No I won't search 2:30 local time because what happened then is irrelevant to the issue. But, you are welcome to download the RADES data and do your own search. The RS3 software is rather easy to use.
 
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