Merged The Cain exposé / 4th woman jumps on the Cain train

[Dumb All Over]

According to the press conference, Cain put his hand up her skirt and "towards" her genitals, and also tried to direct her head to his crotch. He allegedly said that this would help her get a job with the NRA. I wouldn't know how that's classified in terms of "harassment" because she didn't work for him at the time. Accuser says that he took her right back to the hotel when she objected, and there were no further incidents. If she's being truthful, Cain is sometimes overly aggressive towards women, but probably not a criminal.

Thanks, Carlitos, but I'm not asking what others are accusing him of. I guess I'm saying that, without further evidence, the accusations can't necessarily be distinguished from someone making stuff up. Some here seem to have already made up their minds that he is guilty.

 

[Rashmi]

Really? You don't think being in a position to offer someone a job, and insisting that person grant you sexual favors in return for increasing one's chances of getting a job is a crime? You don't think sexual harassment is possible in that situation?

Are you saying that because she wasn't yet an employee, there is nothing Cain could have done that would be illegal?

Well he did "upgrade" her hotel room on the night in question to a "presidential palace", so there is that.

I feel sorry for his (Cain) wife, I bet she is as sweet as she looks in her pictures. Funny how we never see her on the TV.

 

[Rashmi]

Thanks, Carlitos, but I'm not asking what others are accusing him of. I guess I'm saying that, without further evidence, the accusations can't necessarily be distinguished from someone making stuff up. Some here seem to have already made up their minds that he is guilty.

Allred has an affidavit from her ex-boyfriend at the time who is a doctor (pediatrician?) that confirms her story. If she is lying, then she started this lie 12 years ago, knowing that Cain would run for president in '12. (reminds me of the birther story)

I think I'll chose to believe her, she seems straight to me.

The press did ask her if she was doing it for money, and Allred said no, there is no money to be had from this, it's an old story. She just is tired of him lying to the American public.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Indeed. Unwanted groping is not sexual harassment; it's sexual assault.

It could well be both. As I've noted, because this involved an applicant rather than an employee doesn't mean there can be no sexual harassment.

 

[carlitos]

Really? You don't think being in a position to offer someone a job, and insisting that person grant you sexual favors in return for increasing one's chances of getting a job is a crime?

I don't know. It seems sleazy, but is it illegal? Probably against EEOC regs, but I wouldn't know the difference between "violation of regulations" and a crime.

You don't think sexual harassment is possible in that situation?

Sure, but it's not "workplace" harassment, is it? That's what Allred kept saying.

Are you saying that because she wasn't yet an employee, there is nothing Cain could have done that would be illegal?

Yes, obviously. Cain is indestructible; when the women come to him there is nothing illegal he can do.

No, what I meant was, I don't know that unwanted sexual advances, however crude, are a crime per se. Especially when the guy immediately backed off and they ended the night. Big jerk, yes. Criminal, I don't know. Is any touching at all "sexual assault," really? How do college kids advance from one base to the next then? Do you need a permission slip?

(responding to the edit) - Good point, and that seems right protecting an "applicant" from harassment; the whole "casting couch" thing. Legally, not sure if she would qualify, as she hadn't "applied" for a job, just asking Cain for help to get one.

 

[MaverickPLM]

It could well be both. As I've noted, because this involved an applicant rather than an employee doesn't mean there can be no sexual harassment.

Cain was just engaging in his trademark style of humor.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Some here seem to have already made up their minds that he is guilty.

Guilty of what?

As I mentioned, I'm much more concerned with Cain's ridiculous policy positions than I am of sexual harassment allegations, however, I also don't want a president who thinks that it's unethical for journalists to question him about such allegations even after he has declared "end of story".

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Cain was just engaging in his trademark style of humor.

Yep--the whole problem is that the rest of us have no sense of humor!

 

[Dumb All Over]

Guilty of what?

Sexual harassment.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I don't know. It seems sleazy, but is it illegal? Probably against EEOC regs, but I wouldn't know the difference between "violation of regulations" and a crime.

None. Yes, it's illegal.

Sure, but it's not "workplace" harassment, is it? That's what Allred kept saying.

You just moved the goalposts. A minute ago you said that if he did what is alleged, it's not a crime. It almost certainly is at least the crime of sexual harassment.

No, what I meant was, I don't know that unwanted sexual advances, however crude, are a crime per se.

You're kidding right?

What exactly do you mean by per se? You mean if we completely ignore the context of a job applicant and the person who could influence whether or not she is hired (and why should we ignore that context?) that unwelcome groping might not be a crime?

And unwanted sexual advances that are done with the promise of hiring or the threat of firing are probably about the most severe type of sexual harassment. (I would deem demotion or the threat of withholding promotion as a bit less severe, for example.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Sexual harassment.

I have not made up my mind that he is guilty.

I've consistently said that I'm more concerned with his absurd policy positions.

However, if he's committed a crime, it should get a thorough airing. And what I find him guilty of is a terrible mishandling of the press. (See my earlier point about his weird understanding of journalistic ethics.)

Remember, Clinton wasn't impeached because he had an extramarital affair. He was impeached because during taxpayer funded investigations, he lied about it. I wouldn't go that far, personally, but I do think it's going to be the end of Cain's short-lived foray into politics.

 

[Rashmi]

Whether or not it is a crime, is pretty much irrelevant at this point as the statutes of limitations have clearly expired on this particular case, both criminally and civilly. All she is doing is corroborating the twp womens stories that got paid to remain silent by showing a pattern of behavior.

Since Cain has chosen to accuse accuse Allred, and more specifically her client, of making up these allegations, I expect Herman to raise another cool million by Thursday by appearing of Fox News tonight and claiming the liberal lamestream media is attacking an innocent black conservative.

I can here the smoking man right now, "Hey Hermy, look at the bright side, Cha-Ching"!

And Herman replying, "Yes indeed, we gettin' paid again"!

 

[carlitos]

]No, what I meant was, I don't know that unwanted sexual advances, however crude, are a crime per se.

You're kidding right?

What exactly do you mean by per se?

Per se - in and of itself.

You mean if we completely ignore the context of a job applicant and the person who could influence whether or not she is hired (and why should we ignore that context?) that unwelcome groping might not be a crime?

Yes, that's what I meant.

If a guy puts his hand on a woman's leg, and she says "don't do that" and he stops, is that really a crime? Let's say that you're out on a date, and you do the "yawn" move to put your arm around the girl in the movies; if it turns out to be unwanted, that's "sexual assault?" That's scary.

ETA - Just so we're clear, I totally agree with you about the workplace thing. It should not be tolerated in any way. I was merely curious about what was a crime or not. Your point on the EEOC violations = crime is fine by me. I suppose I learned some of that in an HR workshop many moons ago, but I thought that she might have been in a gray area vis a vis the workplace because of not being either an applicant or an employee. I only mention it because Allred said "workplace" 10 times in her spiel.

 

[leftysergeant]

He had no reason to believe that the woman was sexually interested in him.

A rational man is at least going to get an especially hot lip-lock from a lady before he goes sticking his hand up under her skirt.

It is sexual assault.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

According to the press conference, Cain put his hand up her skirt and "towards" her genitals, and also tried to direct her head to his crotch.

Is there something wrong with that?

 

[Rashmi]

He had no reason to believe that the woman was sexually interested in him.
A rational man is at least going to get an especially hot lip-lock from a lady before he goes sticking his hand up under her skirt.

It is sexual assault.

More than that, he was well aware that she was involved with this doctor fellow at the time, and according to Allred, she reminded him of that fact in the car.

They are already starting to use the word "derailed" in regards to the Cain Train on the TV right now. I think it's more like the train wreck in Super8.

I predict Fox News will slam her, Sharon Bialek, for being a single mother. Taking bets at window 5.

 

[BenBurch]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.

When you say that the lawyer "dragged a $100 bill through a trailer park." That is EXACTLY what you are doing, and it's unseemly.

 

[carlitos]

When you say that the lawyer "dragged a $100 bill through a trailer park." That is EXACTLY what you are doing, and it's unseemly.

Last try:

JAMES FREAKING CARVILLE said those words. I posted them here today as a sarcastic prediction of what the conservative reaction to this scandal will be. I am sorry if you misunderstood my sarcasm, and I am in no way doing whatever it is that you think I'm doing.

 

[Tricky]

If a guy puts his hand on a woman's leg, and she says "don't do that" and he stops, is that really a crime? Let's say that you're out on a date, and you do the "yawn" move to put your arm around the girl in the movies; if it turns out to be unwanted, that's "sexual assault?" That's scary.

There is a sizable gap in propriety between putting your arm around someone or your hand on her leg versus reaching your hand up her skirt. Also, when you are out on a date with someone, you are pretty much saying that you expect some flirting. The same cannot be said when you are asking someone for a job. But technically, you could charge someone with assault if they tried to grope you on a date. Such cases almost never happen, but they're not unheard of.

However, the woman did not charge Cain with a crime. She is not doing so now and has clearly stated that she has no interest in doing so. She just wants him to admit he did it.

 

[Rashmi]

Here is a link to the video of just Sharon Bialek's (Gloria's intro is absent) statement from the presser, If anyone is interested.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_...uses-cain-of-sexually-inappropriate-behavior/

She is a very attractive intelligent lady and comes across as very sincere, I can appreciate her sticking her neck out for women all across America.

ETA: the pundits on my TV are already making comments about a rich powerful black man hitting on a hot young white unemployed blond girl, MSNBC I am disappoint!