The Boy Scouts

[RobRoy]

And that saddens me a bit, but I think if more schools exclude them more troops will start complaining to the BSA.

This is also what is happening with government supported troops. Their support (including services, access to buildings, funding, etc.) is being withdrawn due to the discrimination policy.

 

[CurtC]

But if that happens, wouldn't the Mormon, and possibly Catholic, troops quit the BSA? Would the loss of such a large proportion of the membership cripple the organization?

Looking at it logically, they seem to have no problem with letting their kids join sports leagues that have no policy to exclude gays and atheists, so why would they for the scouts? But I guess if you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people (thank you Dr House).

If you define God as a man with a beard who lives in the sky, being reverent is a lie.

If you define God as a etherial concept representing the ideals of a moral life, it's not a problem.

Except the membership form that you have to sign describes an explicitly theistic concept of God that they require belief in. It's not the Scout Oath or Scout Law that I'm referring to, it's the Declaration of Religious Principle.

And that saddens me a bit, but I think if more schools exclude them more troops will start complaining to the BSA.

My impression is that pretty much all schools already exclude them. Schools can still let troops/packs use their rooms, like any group can religious or not, but formerly many troops and packs were sponsored by schools, and that has ended. Schools also, as far as I'm aware, no longer let the Scouts recruit during school hours.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not sure what provision you are talking about, but the BSA is not a government body, so I would expect different rules to apply.

Article 1 section 4 of the Texas State Constitution

Sec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

Seems basically the same.

 

[RobRoy]

Article 1 section 4 of the Texas State Constitution



Seems basically the same.

That wasn't Dr. Keith's point.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I do understand the BSA policy.

I was explaining the rational I used as Boy Scout. I had no problem being reverent to God, or doing my duty to God, because of my definition of God. When asked, I simply said I believed in a personal God.

The issue seldom came up, perhaps because the troop I belonged to was far more diverse than typical. We had kids from just about every major religion, several different ethnic groups and every economic class.

It may not have worked in a more typical troop sponsored by a church, where all the boys practice the same religion. The pressure to conform would by much higher in that situation.

My experience was very similar, except that when I was a scout I was a practicing Episcopalian.

Our troop was sponsored by my church, but we were a very diverse group and religion was not a part of the experience.

 

[GreyArea]

In the end, my argument wouldn’t hold any water with the upper leadership of the BSA. Such a Scout or leader would face expulsion from the organization.

If I were of the age to join, and interested, I'd have to think twice about joining knowing that there was a possibility (however small) of being kicked out for something like this. It clouds the fun. Ultimately, I think I would have chosen a different activity. But to those who take the chance and join the BSA anyway, more power to them. Maybe they can eventually make a change there.

I’m not familiar with the process, so I couldn’t speak intelligently upon it. Sorry. This isn’t meant as a dodge, I see what you’re saying.

No dodge perceived.

My thanks to you and Dr. Keith for your replies.

 

[RobRoy]

If I were of the age to join, and interested, I'd have to think twice about joining knowing that there was a possibility (however small) of being kicked out for something like this. It clouds the fun. Ultimately, I think I would have chosen a different activity. But to those who take the chance and join the BSA anyway, more power to them. Maybe they can eventually make a change there.

Which is a totally different issue than the one about, “We’re breaking the Scout Oath, so we can’t join!” I agree with you in this regard, and it should give pause to anyone who is thinking of a leadership position in Scouts and is an atheist or homosexual.

Scouting isn’t for everyone. Other issues have been expressed in this thread that have nothing to do with the discrimination of the BSA but would pre-empt someone from joining.

No dodge perceived.

My thanks to you and Dr. Keith for your replies.

Glad to be of service.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Article 1 section 4 of the Texas State Constitution

Seems basically the same.

If only it were the same, I wouldn't be complaining about the BSA.

The good people of Texas have not been enforcing* this little gem while the BSA have been hanging their hat on a far less direct statement and enforcing their interpretation of that statement to the exclusion of other possible interpretations.

But, as Rob notes, it's a bit of a non sequitur and wasn't my point.

My point was the reference to God in the Oath is pro-forma. One nation under god, in god we trust, so help me god, oh god yes, god dammit, god damn hippies, for god and country. I don't think every usage of god has the same import or meaning.

The BSA and I disagree on this interpretation, but only recently.



*From wikipedia:

Section 4 prohibits office holders from the requirements of any religious test, provided they "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being". The latter requirement, as well as similar provisions in several other state constitutions, appears to violate the First Amendment prohibition on establishment of religion and the free exercise thereof (which includes the right to not hold a religious belief), as well as the prohibition on any kind of religious test located in Article 6 of the federal constitution. Since it would almost certainly be struck down by the federal courts if challenged, it has not been enforced in modern times.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Agreed. Although the question was if they would leave the BSA. I don’t think they would.

Agreed. I just wasn't very clear. They would stay and they wouldn't change much. In fact, I think this applies to every current sponsoring organization, save the LDS.

In this case, it’s the threat of the BSA, which has been declining over the last couple of decades, of suddenly losing a chunk of members. It’s a fear tactic.

Agreed, but a fear tactic only works if you can back it up.

Really? I didn’t know they made this claim. I have no idea what that program would be. I would assume they would just drop the Scouting portion of their Deacon, Priest, and other Young Men program. Shame, really, as the Scouts provide so much more.

A quote from another discussion I had about this with an LDS member:

In countries that allow gay scouts, the LDS church discriminates in its membership or doesn't participate at all. In those non-participating countries, the Young Men's program is adjusted to provide all of the activities of Scouting (although not necessarily all of the awards). The program that the LDS faith has in place is thought to be an adequate substitute for Scouting.

As a result, it would take little or no effort for the church to discontinue its sponsorship of BSA troops. It could very easily provide this very similar program that's already in place. The LDS church has a good relationship with the BSA, but there is not a great need or incentive for the LDS church to support an organization that drops its values on a national level.

I'm not sure if that is LDS policy, but he seemed to have a good idea of where the LDS would go.

Sorry, I’m not certain what you mean here?

Maybe it was just a Philmont thing, but the LDS Chaplains all had newer trucks than the other chaplains and they were clearly provided by the LDS whereas the other chaplains used hand me downs from the BSA. It was a noticeable difference, although it seems slight in hindsight. I always thought the subliminal message was that "the LDS is better" but now I think the message was "we can do this without the BSA." Likely I'm reading too much into a couple of Broncos, but it really stood out at the time.

 

[Dr. Keith]

If I were of the age to join, and interested, I'd have to think twice about joining knowing that there was a possibility (however small) of being kicked out for something like this. It clouds the fun. Ultimately, I think I would have chosen a different activity. But to those who take the chance and join the BSA anyway, more power to them. Maybe they can eventually make a change there.

Tough decision. I dodged it a bit by not having sons and really being too busy with my daughters to volunteer. But if I had sons I don't know where I would fall on this. I really love what the scouting program provided for me, but I have no tolerance for bigotry in other parts of my life. It would be a huge issue for me and I don't envy those who have to struggle with this.

My thanks to you and Dr. Keith for your replies.

You're welcome. I wish I had better things to say, but the whole "trustworthy, loyal, helpful . . ." thing keeps me from putting on lipstick on this pig.

 

[RobRoy]

I'm not sure if that is LDS policy, but he seemed to have a good idea of where the LDS would go.

Interesting. I would think it would be a bit trickier than that for a couple of reasons, the most obvious being the history between LDS Church members and the BSA. Generations of scouts have passed through the BSA, and because of how the LDS Church has linked it to their own religious teachings. Almost every boy from 8 with the Cub Scouts (also when they’re baptized) to 12 (when they become a Deacon) passes through the Scouting program. While they may not be die-hard, or even maim-hard Scouts, almost all view it as a positive experience. Fathers are typically “called” to serve as Scout leaders when their sons start to participate, and likely the father was in Scouts himself. The tradition of sons, fathers, grandfathers, etc. all participating in Scouts is a pretty hard one to simply sever the tie with.

I would think while the Church itself might walk away, the Scouts and their families might simply shift from LDS sponsored troops to non-LDS sponsored troops. While the LDS can claim that 13% of the membership would just up and walk away, in reality, I’d bet that number would be a lot lower. Perhaps half that.

Future generations of boys, of course, would be impacted, and over a couple of decades, the lack of LDS support for BSA might become a true reality, but I have a hard time believing they would be able to up and sever all ties as suggested.

Maybe it was just a Philmont thing, but the LDS Chaplains all had newer trucks than the other chaplains and they were clearly provided by the LDS whereas the other chaplains used hand me downs from the BSA. It was a noticeable difference, although it seems slight in hindsight. I always thought the subliminal message was that "the LDS is better" but now I think the message was "we can do this without the BSA." Likely I'm reading too much into a couple of Broncos, but it really stood out at the time.

Hmmm, interesting. I know that the LDS maintains their own fleet of cars, mostly for missionary work. I didn’t know they loaned them out or used them for anything else, though I’m sure there is all kinds of official church business in which a vehicle is required. I’ve never encountered them using one of these vehicles for the Scouts, but that doesn’t mean in other areas things aren’t different.

On the other hand, even if you’re reading into this, you aren’t off by much. The LDS church does have a very high opinion of itself, and its Scouts in regards to other Scouts and Scouting programs. I’ve heard a number of conversations in which they see the BSA as bowing to the wishes of the LDS Church in all matters, including the ones we’ve discussed, but also in changes to uniforms, etc. There is also a running meme that LDS Scouts are twice as likely than “regular” Scouts to achieve their Eagle award.

 

[qayak]

The Girl Guides of Canada seem to be way ahead of Scouts Canada.

Vision
Girl Guides of Canada-Guides du Canada, the organization of choice for girls and women, makes a positive difference in the life of every girl and woman who experiences Guiding so she can contribute responsibly to her communities.

Mission
Girl Guides of Canada-Guides du Canada enables girls to be confident, resourceful and courageous, and to make a difference in the world.

Values
The stated values for Girl Guides of Canada-Guides du Canada are stipulated in the Promise and Law

Promise
I Promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada
I will take action for a better world
And respect the Guiding Law

Law
The Guiding Law challenges me to:

•be honest and trustworthy
•use my resources wisely
•respect myself and others
•recognize and use my talents and abilities
•protect our common environment
•live with courage and strength
•share in the sisterhood of Guiding.

ETA: Imagine that! An organization that realizes that it is discriminatory AND DOES SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Chief commissioner Myrtle Corkum said polling found Guiding is seen by most Canadians as a predominantly Christian group.

"We were not viewed as inclusive as we thought we were."

So the group began reviewing its programs, and launched the survey to gauge how members view the promise and its role, Corkum said.

http://www.thestar.com/article/634075

 

[zooterkin]

ETA: Imagine that! An organization that realizes that it is discriminatory AND DOES SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Ok, but do they accept atheist or gay members or leaders?

ETA: Ah, I see the link is about atheism, it wasn't clear from the quote you used.

The possibility that Girl Guides of Canada will drop any reference to religion from its all-important Guiding Promise is drawing an angry response from parents, who have taken to Facebook to debate the issue.

 

[qayak]

Ok, but do they accept atheist or gay members or leaders?

ETA: Ah, I see the link is about atheism, it wasn't clear from the quote you used.

The point was that when the GGC saw that they were perceived as a christian organization, they took steps to change that and be more inclusive, specifically for those who were agnostic or atheist. They removed all reference of god or a higher power from their promise and Law.

The 2010 mission statement from the GGC says that they are striving to become all inclusive so I suspect that means for gay members and leaders as well but I can't find any mention of it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Since girls are allowed in the BSA’s Venturing (14 to 21) and Exploring (15 to 20) programs, which are typically led by male Scoutmasters, you’d think given your reasoning that the BSA would be as equally concerned with the issue on the other side, yet they’re not. They feel their current policies adequately protect Venture and Explorer scouts.

Good point.

 

[Meadmaker]

It beats me that atheists who wouldn't touch any other homophobic organization with a bargepole would want to have anything to do with the Boy Scouts.

There's two reasons. One is that there isn't some other organization that is just like the Boy Scouts, but not homophobic. The other is that a lot of us have had experiences with that organization that we consider positive, and we're glad to pass on that tradition even if it's not perfect. I was simply thrilled to work on my son's Pinewood Derby car with him, just as my dad had helped me with mine.

 

[sgtbaker]

I just got the notice from The Girl Scouts. The introduction to Girl Scouts is held in the evening and the school has nothing to do with it. I like that a whole lot better.

In the end, I did nothing. Shame on me but as fired up about it as I was, in making my objections known, I was afraid of inadvertently bringing negative attention to my kids.