The Boy Scouts

[zooterkin]

Aren't Buddhists atheists? I mean it's a religion without a god, isn't it?

It also depends very much on the flavour of Buddhism. In Japanese Buddhism there's an awful lot of things that look very much like gods; see, for example, Sanjūsangen-dō^WP, the temple with one thousand life-size (how do they know?) statues of the deity Kannon.

As for the scouts, the UK policy seems a lot more relaxed that that of BSA; certainly my kids never had any problems, but atheism is pretty much the default position here now.

 

[dafydd]

A friend of mine is a scoutmaster in London.I just called him,and he has boys and girls from many ethnic backgrounds in his troop.Religion does not enter into it.The previous poster was correct,atheism is the default position in Britain nowadays.Are we talking about American scouts here?

 

[RobRoy]

A friend of mine is a scoutmaster in London.I just called him,and he has boys and girls from many ethnic backgrounds in his troop.Religion does not enter into it.The previous poster was correct,atheism is the default position in Britain nowadays.Are we talking about American scouts here?

I plead ethnocentrism. I assumed when the OP stated Boy Scouts and referenced the discriminatory practices he meant BSA = Boy Scouts of America = Boy Scouts of the United States of America.

 

[elbe]

Personally, the boy scouts was one of the worst experiences I've had in my entire life, but the religious issues seemed largely non-existent. No one seemed to bother about each boy's religious views, but I guess we (at least I) just went along with the group and said whatever words they wanted us to - like how I would say the pledge.

I imagine, if you wanted to, you could find a troop that doesn't care about religion and sexuality as long as you don't make it an issue.

Of course now their attitudes toward atheists and homosexuals isn't making me see them more positively, but I acknowledge that I'm in a minority - most boys seem to have a great time.

 

[sgtbaker]

Yes.

This is how I view the organization and why I continue to participate in it. My time as a Boy Scout was very much influenced by the organization, and definitely in a good way. I regret not getting my Eagle award, and I'd like to help other boys not have that regret. But even without being and Eagle Scout, I have a number of excellent skills, both within the realm of camping and in other areas, that were a direct result of my participation.

Scouting isn't for everyone, but it's a good, if flawed, organization, that has increasingly gotten better with time.

Flawed?

Young people need faith. There is abundant evidence that children benefit from the moral compass provided by religious tradition. We acknowledge that faith can become an important part of a child's identity. Each of the major faiths breeds hope, optimism, compassion, and a belief in a better tomorrow. Scouting encourages each young person to begin a spiritual journey through the practice of his or her faith tradition. One of the key tenets of Scouting is "duty to God." While Scouting does not define religious belief for its members, it has been adopted by and works with youth programs of all major faiths.
http://www.scouting.org/Visitor/WhyScouting/FaithTraditions.aspx

It's flat out bigoted and nurtures future exclusionary bigots. There's no evidence of any kind that a child needs faith to flourish. Even still, I might turn a blind eye to that and sign my kid up if I didn't have to lie about our household. That goes against everything I would try to teach my child.

 

[RobRoy]

Flawed?

I take it you didn't read Meadmaker's post, if you did, then I’m uncertain where you’re confusion about my post came from. Are you cherry-picking one word of my response in order to make a point?

It's flat out bigoted and nurtures future exclusionary bigots.

The policy is. I haven’t disputed that. In fact, I’ve stated it at least once. The organization, on the other hand, is another matter.

There's no evidence of any kind that a child needs faith to flourish.

Agreed. What’s your point?

Even still, I might turn a blind eye to that and sign my kid up if I didn't have to lie about our household. That goes against everything I would try to teach my child.

Then don’t. I didn’t advocate that your son, you, or any of your immediate family participate and thus, in your own eyes, make of yourself a hypocrite. I simply expressed my own experience and view of the BSA. Flawed? Yes. A bastion of bigotry, hate speech, and future homophobes? You’d be very hard-pressed to make that case.

 

[elbe]

If you're interested in the scouts I might suggest talking to local troop leaders about your concerns and see what they have to say. Or, I guess, try finding a different scouting organization in your area that does meet your needs.

 

[Uncle Otto]

Flawed?



It's flat out bigoted and nurtures future exclusionary bigots. There's no evidence of any kind that a child needs faith to flourish. Even still, I might turn a blind eye to that and sign my kid up if I didn't have to lie about our household. That goes against everything I would try to teach my child.

See that would be a huge problem for me too. The scouts pride themselves on things like truthfulness, integrity and honesty. How can you ask a kid to lie about something as important as god-belief and still think he can adhere to those principles? It's cognitive dissonance. IMO it kind of destroys the entire purpose of taking the oath in the first place. It's taking the oath with your fingers crossed behind your back.

 

[Random]

Impressionable youths being dressed up in paramilitary uniforms, taking oaths, starting fires…

 

[RobRoy]

Impressionable youths being dressed up in paramilitary uniforms, taking oaths, starting fires…

. . . doing a good turn daily, learning about various industries, civic duty, how their local and national government works, taking care of the outdoors . . .

Buncha-freakin' Naht-zees!

 

[phildonnia]

I was in the boy scouts as a kid. I had a problem with "obedient" and "reverent", but I enjoyed the camping and hiking and biking, and learning rope-work and lifesaving. Atheists certainly need to learn to be "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight". I think on balance it was a positive experience.

I can say that there is a big difference between the official principles and the things that kids actually learn. I said "a scout is trustworthy", but I actually learned was that an "oath" is a thing you say whenever everyone else is saying it.

One thing I wish I had learned better: "A scout is brave".

 

[dafydd]

Impressionable youths being dressed up in paramilitary uniforms, taking oaths, starting fires…

I was in London three months ago and I went along with my mate to the scout hall.There was nothing like that going on,just a bunch of kids enjoying themselves.What is Scouting like in the States.I´ll bet they have the flag hanging up in the scout hall. None of that nonsense in the UK.

 

[fuelair]

.

And equally discerning is their discrimination against homosexuals. Openly gay people cannot serve as scout leaders.

Probably Baden-Powell was captured and buggered by a Fuzzy-Wuzzy or three in the wars and never got over it. Certainly, regular military action would not have set him off.*









*Though it may well have got him off!!

 

[RobRoy]

I was in London three months ago and I went along with my mate to the scout hall.There was nothing like that going on,just a bunch of kids enjoying themselves.What is Scouting like in the States.I´ll bet they have the flag hanging up in the scout hall. None of that nonsense in the UK.

Honestly, I wish my Scouts were more respectful of the organization and took more pride in their uniforms. I understand where they're coming from though, because as a Scout, these were things that I had to learn, it wasn't something I was overly interested in. Tying knots, shooting arrows, camping, those were fun. The rest seemed like so much boondoggle (and man did I have a lot of boondoggle!). Now I see the importance of self-identification with the Scouting program as well as the discipline that wearing the uniform, bringing your book, being ready to learn, enforced.

But in the main, my boys show up, maybe they have their shirts, usually not, and mostly they just want to get through whatever we’re doing so they can go play basketball.

There is one youth, though, who wears jackboots and marches around but he's not a Scout . . .

 

[Professor Yaffle]

There's always the Woodcraft Folk. They don't discriminate against anyone - except non-hippies...

 

[RobRoy]

There's always the Woodcraft Folk. They don't discriminate against anyone - except non-hippies...

Freakin' non-hippies, with their coats, and their ties and their bank accounts.

Can ya blame them!?

 

[dafydd]

Honestly, I wish my Scouts were more respectful of the organization and took more pride in their uniforms. I understand where they're coming from though, because as a Scout, these were things that I had to learn, it wasn't something I was overly interested in. Tying knots, shooting arrows, camping, those were fun. The rest seemed like so much boondoggle (and man did I have a lot of boondoggle!). Now I see the importance of self-identification with the Scouting program as well as the discipline that wearing the uniform, bringing your book, being ready to learn, enforced.

But in the main, my boys show up, maybe they have their shirts, usually not, and mostly they just want to get through whatever we’re doing so they can go play basketball.

There is one youth, though, who wears jackboots and marches around but he's not a Scout . . .

The scouts are just a youth club in Britain nowadays.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

This kind of thing isn’t allowed any more, and shouldn’t have been allowed then (I also suffered corporal punishment while I was a Boyscout, but that was for not being in full uniform at meetings).

Reverent doesn’t mean that you have to say grace, especially if your beliefs differ. I serve as an Assistant Scoutmaster to a church-based troop. It is common knowledge that I don’t believe as they do, and the Scoutmaster has made it clear that if someone doesn’t feel comfortable saying a prayer, they may defer.

Scouting was important for me as I grew up. I wasn’t aware of some of the major issues/problems that it had at the time. I am aware of them now, but I see that the organization does a lot of good for a lot of kids. The BSA has some major issues in regards to discrimination, and does need to overcome them. A change of policy is not only warranted, but required. Atheism, agnosticism and homosexuality are their three major hang-ups at this point, and it is my strong belief that, within time, these will a part of the BSA’s history, rather than their present policy.

I agree with pretty much everything you say here, Robroy. My son is a Scout and I participate as part of the Troop Council. I always enjoyed my time in scouts when I was young and my son seems to like it too. My son is pretty much a-religious and I am an atheist, so we play down the religious aspects in Scouts.

I have to say that it is troubling that our troop ends every meeting with the Scout Masters Benediction that concludes with the words "May the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts be with you until we meet again". So far I have been able to avoid laughing at the image and just remain silent during this part. But I wonder if someone will pick up on that fact and ask me about it.

Sometimes the Scout Master brings up wanting to focus on the reverent part of the oath and a couple of us suggest that isn't such a good idea since religion is such a personal thing. I hope that we can continue with that philosophy. I did recently notice that in order to teach merit badges, you had to sign an application that says something along the lines that you recognize that it is only through God that you can be a moral member of society or something like that. I had to ignore that bit to become a merit badge councilor. It's hard to be an atheist and be in scouts. Only one father in the troop knows that I am an atheist and it seems he is an agnostic, a couple of the other fathers in the troop are very religious and I would prefer that they did not know about my lack of religiosity.

Like the rest of society, the Boy Scouts have changed a great deal over the years. I got involved in scouting when my son wanted to join a couple of years ago. Religion has never been an issue. Yes, I am sure that there are still scoutmasters in the world who would make a stink about a kid if they found out he was an atheist, but I think you would have to work hard to actually find one. I tell my kid that being "reverent" means being respectful toward everyone's religious beliefs. If you can't manage that, in my opinion, you shouldn't be a boy scout or a scoutmaster.

As for sexuality, I'm pretty sure it's a "Don't ask. Don't tell." sort of policy. It's a relic of some bygone attitudes, I think. In the past, it wasn't unusual for kids to run around without clothes on at camps, and there was an idea of homosexuals getting worked into a frenzy in that situation. Now, there are usually enough mothers present in the campground that the kids will be keeping their clothes on all the time, anyway. More importantly, more people realize that it just isn't a really big problem. Gay people don't seem to react that way to the presence of naked members of the same sex. The regulations that are in place to protect kids against heterosexual pedophiles are more than enough to protect them from homosexual pedophiles as well. Most boy scout leadership is based on people who either currently have kids in scouts, or have had them in scouts in the past. In the past, that meant not many gay people participated. My guess is that as more gay people start traising children, and those children want to be boy scouts, those barriers will drop, but it will take some time.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath, here. The Boy Scouts are an excellent, but not perfect, organization. In my experience, there is no barrier to participation based on either religion or sexual orientation, regardless of what the official rules say. (Granted, I haven't paid much attention to the sexual orientation difficulties, which I suspect are a bigger problem.) I suppose it's good to keep raising the issues, to keep pressure on that will eventually goad them into changes, but that takes time. In the meantime, there's no reason to keep your kid out of them based on those reasons, and there's no reason to try to force other kids out of the Scouts, either.

The anti-homosexual stand was the hardest for me to get past to have my son join. The Scouts will not allow a homosexual to be Scout Master and I assume they wouldn't let a boy join the troop. That is very troubling to me. Especially given the Mormons' recent role in supporting Proposition 8. I really feel as I have given up on some of my principles for joining and having my son join scouts, but perhaps, as Robroy says, they will soon change. We have taught our kids that a person's sexuality and religion don't matter in the make-up of that person, but here we are a part of a group that discriminates against them.

I will say that the scout master has said that it doesn't matter what the Scouts say, our troop would not discriminate against anyone who is gay.

Yes.

This is how I view the organization and why I continue to participate in it. My time as a Boy Scout was very much influenced by the organization, and definitely in a good way. I regret not getting my Eagle award, and I'd like to help other boys not have that regret. But even without being and Eagle Scout, I have a number of excellent skills, both within the realm of camping and in other areas, that were a direct result of my participation.

Scouting isn't for everyone, but it's a good, if flawed, organization, that has increasingly gotten better with time.

I guess I can go with that.

 

[quixotecoyote]

I've told my story of how I left scouts shortly after the scoutmaster's sons banished a scout from an ongoing camp trip for refusing to do their dishes. Even though the troop I temporarily belonged to was horribly run, religion didn't seem to come into it much.

 

[sgtbaker]

I take it you didn't read Meadmaker's post, if you did, then I’m uncertain where you’re confusion about my post came from. Are you cherry-picking one word of my response in order to make a point?

It was just the word flawed that I found to be an understatement. Yours was the second of the two posts so I hit respond to you.

The policy is. I haven’t disputed that. In fact, I’ve stated it at least once. The organization, on the other hand, is another matter.

I know you haven't defended it, you called it flawed for that policy.

Agreed. What’s your point?

My point was just that, right in their policy, they say

Young people need faith. There is abundant evidence that children benefit from the moral compass provided by religious tradition

I disagree with propagating a lie to justify their discriminatory acts. For the record, I am disagreeing with them, not putting words into your mouth, I know you think the policy is flawed.

Then don’t. I didn’t advocate that your son, you, or any of your immediate family participate and thus, in your own eyes, make of yourself a hypocrite. I simply expressed my own experience and view of the BSA. Flawed? Yes. A bastion of bigotry, hate speech, and future homophobes? You’d be very hard-pressed to make that case.

That was basically a response to the tone of both you and Meadmaker - it's not perfect but it's a great experience. I am sure you had great experiences, I am sure plenty of boys can attribute good qualities to their time in boyscouts. I would overlook their ideas but in order for my son to have those types of experiences he would have to lie while taking his oath.

I never said hatespeech, as a matter of fact hatespeech isn't even a crime in my book. However, when you teach 11yr old minds that you need religion to be good and homosexuals can't be trusted around young boys, it plants a seed in their minds.