• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

The "BigUneasy", a different view of New Orleans

Of the many agencies responsible for protecting Orleans and the surrounding parishes from flooding it has been my experience that the least corrupt of them all is the COE. And I am speaking as a person that has been many times on the opposite side of the table from the New Orleans District in negotiation, mediation, and litigation and never on the same side.
 
My house got hit by a tornado back in 2008, and it did a lot of devastation to the porch, carport and many large trees around the place (Amazingly, none of us were hurt). My neighbors all came by and had a 'chainsaw party' where everyone helped cut up and get us mobile and functional again. I never forget generosity like that. When you're beaten down, having someone roll up their sleeves and help you is perhaps the most wonderful endorsement of the goodness of mankind I can think of.

Yep definately - I have been in a couple of emergency situations myself. And there is just this spirit kicks in and people just do it. Breaks ya heart watching an obviously injured person helping someone more injured than they are

I guess it is just how humans roll when we want too
 
And those people in the news videos were in some cases not allowed to escape the flooding except to go to the Convention Center and the Dome. Then there was no water and no food for days. You'd think by that time people would have just walked out of the city. But many of them could not get out for a number of reasons they had no control over.

A lot of them couldn't leave because they were too busy stealing TV sets.
 
When I was there in 1994/95 there were always problems with flooding-Pumps not working/overloaded--and that was with no hurricane. Just the typical NOLA cloudbursts...
All local responsibilities and nothing to do with the COE. What were you doing there in 94 / 95?
So the ACOE was incompetent then? That was a Democratic administration, too.
No more so than any other federal agency, IMNSHO.
The levees were designed and built starting in the 1800's, and

So hindsight again rules the day...
No kidding. The funny thing is that few thinking people that I knew thought that NO could survive a cat 4 or even 3+ storm if it came up the Mississippi or into the Rigolets. Every year we would hear "is we gonna have another Betsy?" and every office in SE Louisiana had a hurricane tracking map hanging in the coffee room to track the latest storm. And every year some people would evacuate a couple of times and some people would sit tight. Hell, Katrina was not a worst case scenario - a breach of the Mississippi River Levee at flood stage would have been far worse.
 
All local responsibilities and nothing to do with the COE. What were you doing there in 94 / 95?
Acoustic loads analysis on the SLWT (Alum/Lithium alloy) tank for STS
No more so than any other federal agency, IMNSHO.
No kidding. The funny thing is that few thinking people that I knew thought that NO could survive a cat 4 or even 3+ storm if it came up the Mississippi or into the Rigolets. Every year we would hear "is we gonna have another Betsy?" and every office in SE Louisiana had a hurricane tracking map hanging in the coffee room to track the latest storm. And every year some people would evacuate a couple of times and some people would sit tight. Hell, Katrina was not a worst case scenario - a breach of the Mississippi River Levee at flood stage would have been far worse.
Yup...
 
Hm. Looking, not many cities are *under* sea level. (I also don't want to get into the incompetence of most bureaucracies because then we have to start going 'OK, what did all levels of government do?')



Probably America, and ad hominem (negative association in order to attack the person, not his argument)
It wasn't an ad hom, it was a question. Do you believe God punished New Orleans via Katrina? It is relevant to the belief the city deserved it.



Strawman; also, name the other cities besides Holland (There are also a few in the Phillipines, but I am under the impression they regularly flood)
You need to look up the definition of straw man. You made the argument anyone building in a city at risk of ocean flooding deserved it. I merely pointed out levees protect thousands of cities from flooding. If you want to tell us why salt water hazards are to be avoided while fresh water flooding is fine, then make your case. Otherwise, levees are levees and devastating floods are not dependent on being below sea level.


Slippery slope; strawman.
Slippery slope? :boggled:

I see you are one of those people that throw out one or two word rebuttals when challenged instead of supporting your claims. Tell me how building below sea level protected by levees differs from building in any other hazardous setting protected (or not) by something? You said NO deserved it because of foolish choices. So I guess you are saying everyone affected by natural disasters had it coming because they were foolish.

Either you agree, in which case your wrath is unrealistic. Or you disagree and can make the case why this particular hazard differs from all other hazardous building sites.



Simple Cause Fallacy.
Meaningless reply.
 
Of the many agencies responsible for protecting Orleans and the surrounding parishes from flooding it has been my experience that the least corrupt of them all is the COE. And I am speaking as a person that has been many times on the opposite side of the table from the New Orleans District in negotiation, mediation, and litigation and never on the same side.
Did you see the case made in the documentary or are you commenting on it without having seen it?
 
And, the city of New Orleans actually was a lot safer when it was originally settled because there was a barrier marsh. Because the Corp dredged the Mississippi and built levees all along it, less silt has been pouring out into the delta ever since. That resulted in a loss of almost all the barrier marsh. So what you are saying is people should have been either clairvoyant and not settled there, or moved their entire city after the dredging destroyed the delta.


And by your reckoning we should abandon all areas with earthquake risk, tornado risk, other flood risk, fire risk and so on. Instead people try to mitigate these hazards. If the Corp wasn't corrupt and incompetent, the Katrina damage to New Orleans would not have occurred.

The problem here wasn't where the city was built. The problem wasn't the hurricane (aka God's wrath). The problem was human error within the Army Corp of Engineers.

Do you know why the COE was tasked with building levee's along the river, or are you just listening to the COE bashing propaganda?

They were built because the river tended to flood the city and surrounding area on a regular basis from storms and runoff from far upstream. If there were no levee's and flooding occurred at the level of the St. Louis flood of 1993, there would be the same people calling for the COE's head for letting that happen.

The COE did what it did at the direction of the politicians trying to protect their electorate. The fact that they were caught by the law of unintended consequences is no reason to call it corrupt and incompetent.
 
Did you see the case made in the documentary or are you commenting on it without having seen it?
I have neither seen the documentary nor have I commented on the documentary.

I have merely stated that in my experience the NO District of the COE was the least corrupt agency with which I had dealings in SE Louisiana whether Federal, State, or Local. Given that a significant part of my business involved planning, executing, and negotiating dredging contracts, levee construction and repair contracts, canal restoration contracts, and pump station maintenance and construction contracts (valued at a guess in the $100s of millions) involving not only the COE but also local and state agencies responsible for flood protection I am comfortable that my experience provides a not unreasonable basis for arriving at an opinion on the subject.

I further stated that the fact that Orleans, Jefferson, St. Bernard, and Plaquemines Parishes were at risk if a hurricane of 3 or better came up the Mississippi or through the Rigolets was not arcane knowledge; in fact it was common knowledge - hence the pervasive fear of another Betsy.

Finally, I noted that Katrina was not a worst case scenario, that, in fact, a far worse disaster would be the failure of the river levees at flood. That event would be a catastrophe of truly epic proportion.

Lest I be accused of being calloused in my view of the effects of Katrina I should tell you that my mother, her brother, and his wife, were amongst those who elected to not evacuate prior to the storm hitting. I flew into Dallas and drove to NO in the immediate aftermath of the storm to evacuate them. I brought them out through Dallas. My aunt and uncle lost their home and everything they had in it; it was not insured. They have never returned. My mother's home sustained significant damage that took months to repair.
 
Last edited:

More likely Michoud east of NO where the ET is built. Stennis is a NASA center for testing rockets. Michoud got hit pretty good in the storm, and the surge that sank most of NO went right past their doorstep.
 
More likely Michoud east of NO where the ET is built. Stennis is a NASA center for testing rockets. Michoud got hit pretty good in the storm, and the surge that sank most of NO went right past their doorstep.
Stennis is where the shuttle main engines were tested. My wife was an EE for NASA at Stennis for several years.
 
Do you know why the COE was tasked with building levee's along the river, or are you just listening to the COE bashing propaganda?

They were built because the river tended to flood the city and surrounding area on a regular basis from storms and runoff from far upstream. If there were no levee's and flooding occurred at the level of the St. Louis flood of 1993, there would be the same people calling for the COE's head for letting that happen.

The COE did what it did at the direction of the politicians trying to protect their electorate. The fact that they were caught by the law of unintended consequences is no reason to call it corrupt and incompetent.
No I don't have a clue about levees. I was born yesterday. :rolleyes:
 
Pretty much summarizes your attempts at figuring out what I was saying.

Since, you know, I wasn't arguing his point. Also, I don't feel like arguing with someone who doesn't understand fallacies and pretends I don't either, have fun.
Another dodge, I see.
 
I have neither seen the documentary nor have I commented on the documentary.

I have merely stated that in my experience the NO District of the COE was the least corrupt agency with which I had dealings in SE Louisiana whether Federal, State, or Local. Given that a significant part of my business involved planning, executing, and negotiating dredging contracts, levee construction and repair contracts, canal restoration contracts, and pump station maintenance and construction contracts (valued at a guess in the $100s of millions) involving not only the COE but also local and state agencies responsible for flood protection I am comfortable that my experience provides a not unreasonable basis for arriving at an opinion on the subject.

I further stated that the fact that Orleans, Jefferson, St. Bernard, and Plaquemines Parishes were at risk if a hurricane of 3 or better came up the Mississippi or through the Rigolets was not arcane knowledge; in fact it was common knowledge - hence the pervasive fear of another Betsy.

Finally, I noted that Katrina was not a worst case scenario, that, in fact, a far worse disaster would be the failure of the river levees at flood. That event would be a catastrophe of truly epic proportion.

Lest I be accused of being calloused in my view of the effects of Katrina I should tell you that my mother, her brother, and his wife, were amongst those who elected to not evacuate prior to the storm hitting. I flew into Dallas and drove to NO in the immediate aftermath of the storm to evacuate them. I brought them out through Dallas. My aunt and uncle lost their home and everything they had in it; it was not insured. They have never returned. My mother's home sustained significant damage that took months to repair.
The reason I asked is the documentary did not spare related agency corruption in the discussion. In addition, the documentary noted problems and places with less problems within the work of the COE outside the work in LA.
 
Last edited:
NO.
When you build below sea level, you deserve the results of the stupid...

Yeah, how dumb do you have to be to want to live near the fifth largest port in America?
People in tornado-prone midwest/fire prone California/drought prone south/blizzard prone New England all have it coming!

If only they were smart enough to move where there are no natural disasters in scenic _________ .
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom