The Biden Presidency

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The Great Zaganza said:
Everyone who has a problem with 'Defund the Police' never got peppersprayed by them.
Everyone who wonders how they are going to call the police when they need them never actually called the police when they needed them.
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You just hate cops. Got it. Vast majority of the people, though they are willing to criticise the police, don't share your hate.
 
dudalb said:
You just hate cops. Got it. Vast majority of the people, though they are willing to criticise the police, don't share your hate.
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Exactly they know the simple joys of being a cop, like setting dogs on people, harmless fun that. Nothing to hate in a bit of harmless fun like that.
 
acbytesla said:
Political messaging matters. I have no problem with the BLM slogan. But it does open up the door for a feeling of victimization felt by poor whites. "What? Don't I matter thinks the hicks from the sticks?" This is the problem with it.
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No, the problem is those hicks from the sticks don't want to hear it. there's no reason to continue pretending "All Lives Matter" was a genuine response.

I know full well what is going on their minds because I am one of them. I remember getting angry when I was younger when I wasn't accepted at the University of Washington despite doing very well on the SATs thinking my spot was taken by a minority candidate who didn't do as well.

No I know after having eventually being accepted at the UW and working in high tech where there were almost no one of color at the companies I worked for and the clients that I sold to that as hard as it was for me to break down that door, it was harder for people of color. The discrimination wasn't overt, but it had to be there at least subconsciously.
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sounds to me like you were either conditioned or simply not in a place to accept that reality. No slogan, no marketing ploy, no reasonable argument was going to work. I was in the same place. My preconceived notions had to be shattered by experience. I had to come around on my own.
 
dudalb said:
I see we have a left wing echo chamber going on here.
Point is Defund the Police is a stupid slogan that scares all but the already coverted off. So find a better slogan to use.
Of course I detect contempt for anybody who is not far to the left as the members of the Echo CHamber.
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Do you really believe finding some magical combination of words will make the racist scales fall from their eyes?

Do you tell a battered spouse "well if you just talk to them more politely/meekly/"properly" maybe things will change?

No, that's obviously horrible and deepens the victimization.

Also rape victims should dress modestly.

ETA: this is why impotent, spineless centrist/moderates will simply be a prelude to the next Trump.
 
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wareyin said:
No. Tara Reade showed up after Biden had won the primaries. No other candidate was still running. Dishonestly pretending that "oh, this was just primary stuff" is revisionist history.
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*takes a deep breath, looks up Tara Reade again and checks dates* Ahh. Tara Reade was that lady. Yeah, I was conflating her actions with one of Bernie's surrogates that acted badly. My apologies for that. Still, my comments were not far off the mark at all, though, when it comes to the sexual crimes accusation.

To be clear, Bernie's official concession happened *after* Tara Reade showed up. April 3 versus April 8, though I'll agree that much of the Tara Reade saga happened after Bernie had officially conceded - as is pretty much is to be expected when it comes to material like that, which once presented, progressives will push to get as fair a hearing as possible. Going further about the actual progressive response to Tara Reade, since clearly, you weren't in much of a position to judge such - broadly speaking, it was a bit guarded. Certainly, some jumped on the claims hard, especially among the more... vocal of Bernie advocates at the very beginning, and they were far more vocal than the people who were simply waiting for more information, of course. I'll agree that progressives didn't have so many people that automatically fought for Biden, though, before having solid ground to work from. More broadly, though, there was certainly willingness to be open-minded and give the claims a fair hearing, albeit distinctly guarded because of the high likelihood that it was little more than yet another Republican rat******* political ploy and tempered with the knowledge that Trump was pretty definitively worse, even if true. The whole "Believe Women" slogan from the #MeToo movement was invoked, of course, though usually by those who were trying to create the appearance of hypocrisy, given the disparity between the direct meaning of the slogan and the larger concepts that it was being used as an oversimplification of to invoke. As distinct problems with Tara Reade's story arose, they were jumped on, of course, and *most* progressives were fine with having decent cause to not worry so much about the choice that they already knew that they'd be making for Biden already, given the alternative, as the Tara Reade story played out.

There, that's a much more in depth look at the Tara Reade topic than it really deserves by this point. As for those other accusations? Biden being senile and demented? Those claims are overwhelmingly from the right, in general. There was some expressed concern about senility in the primaries, but very little in the general, as far as I saw. A more general and nebulous mental decline, on the other hand? Biden very likely is experiencing some, in keeping with his age, much as I (and probably most other progressives, though that topic is not one that I saw actually raised much) still rate his likely currently a bit diminished self from his prime as still being far, far above Trump at Trump's prime, even before getting to Trump's mental decline.


On a separate note, it's probably worth pointing out that when you complain about social media campaigns, it's pretty much guaranteed that the right-wing and their bots will be amplifying anything negative about anyone they consider a political threat and working to create more if they think they can, and that, for example, Facebook's algorithm was altered a fair while ago to strongly favor right-wing propaganda.


wareyin said:
No, again. When discussing American politicians, using the American definitions of their politics is accurate and proper. Using other country's definitions is...dishonest at best in this context.
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Other countries? I'm talking about using a somewhat objective scale, as I said. Using the fundamentally nebulous and constantly shifting state of any one country's current politics will inevitably be quite inaccurate and manipulable. While it is proper for some specific uses, its usual use in reality has been distinctly improper and misleading.


wareyin said:
And using the actions of the majority of progressives to represent progressives as a group is accurate, whether or not you and one other guy happened to not take those actions yourself.
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To be clear, I can easily imagine scenarios about how you might have come to such a perception, especially given your behavior so far, but it's simply not very accurate.
 
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crescent said:
Spineless centrists like this guy?



Obama: You lose people with 'snappy' slogans like 'defund the police'
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Do you think Obama saying that made any of the racists who hate him like him better?

Are they ready to have a dialog with him about sensible improvements, etc?

Obama is actually a great example supporting my position. Doesnt matter how far he "compromised" (or outright surrendered), he still only to got the same abusive vitriol.

But sure, "this time will be different." The bigoted backwards bumblefucks will see reason. Just as soon as we recite the magic incantation.
 
wareyin said:
The typical progressive tactic is to claim Obama is a centrist when you are unhappy with him, and claim him as a progressive when you are happy with him.
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Meanwhile, snide dismissive insults to your own allies are fine.

If those allies express dismay at your phrasing and attitude, suddenly words will be less important than "get on board with moderate proposals or you are harming us all."
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Meanwhile, snide dismissive insults to your own allies are fine.

If those allies express dismay at your phrasing and attitude, suddenly words will be less important than "get on board with moderate proposals or you are harming us all."
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Are you attempting to imply that progressives do not actually claim Obama as a progressive occasionally and as a centrist at other times? I've certainly seen it right here more than once.
 
wareyin said:
The typical progressive tactic is to claim Obama is a centrist when you are unhappy with him, and claim him as a progressive when you are happy with him.
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Yea way to hard to recognize someone can hold both progressive and centrist views on things.
 
wareyin said:
Are you attempting to imply that progressives do not actually claim Obama as a progressive occasionally and as a centrist at other times? I've certainly seen it right here more than once.
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I'm not implying anything?

How about you not hurl insults and then bait me into talking about the validity of the insult.

In other words, stop acting like a God damn conservative.

ETA: Let's discuss the topic. Which was *glances at notes* ah yes, phrasing things so others will be more receptive (LOL!)

Yeah. Work on that.
 
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Aridas said:
*takes a deep breath, looks up Tara Reade again and checks dates* Ahh. Tara Reade was that lady. Yeah, I was conflating her actions with one of Bernie's surrogates that acted badly. My apologies for that. Still, my comments were not far off the mark at all, though, when it comes to the sexual crimes accusation.

To be clear, Bernie's official concession happened *after* Tara Reade showed up. April 3 versus April 8, though I'll agree that much of the Tara Reade saga happened after Bernie had officially conceded - as is pretty much is to be expected when it comes to material like that, which once presented, progressives will push to get as fair a hearing as possible. Going further about the actual progressive response to Tara Reade, since clearly, you weren't in much of a position to judge such - broadly speaking, it was a bit guarded. Certainly, some jumped on the claims hard, especially among the more... vocal of Bernie advocates at the very beginning, and they were far more vocal than the people who were simply waiting for more information, of course. I'll agree that progressives didn't have so many people that automatically fought for Biden, though, before having solid ground to work from. More broadly, though, there was certainly willingness to be open-minded and give the claims a fair hearing, albeit distinctly guarded because of the high likelihood that it was little more than yet another Republican rat******* political ploy and tempered with the knowledge that Trump was pretty definitively worse, even if true. The whole "Believe Women" slogan from the #MeToo movement was invoked, of course, though usually by those who were trying to create the appearance of hypocrisy, given the disparity between the direct meaning of the slogan and the larger concepts that it was being used as an oversimplification of to invoke. As distinct problems with Tara Reade's story arose, they were jumped on, of course, and *most* progressives were fine with having decent cause to not worry so much about the choice that they already knew that they'd be making for Biden already, given the alternative, as the Tara Reade story played out.

There, that's a much more in depth look at the Tara Reade topic than it really deserves by this point. As for those other accusations? Biden being senile and demented? Those claims are overwhelmingly from the right, in general. There was some expressed concern about senility in the primaries, but very little in the general, as far as I saw. A more general and nebulous mental decline, on the other hand? Biden very likely is experiencing some, in keeping with his age, much as I (and probably most other progressives, though that topic is not one that I saw actually raised much) still rate his likely currently a bit diminished self from his prime as still being far, far above Trump at Trump's prime, even before getting to Trump's mental decline.
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I appreciate the concession that your people and timelines were a bit jumbled. Bernie certainly dropped out earlier this time than in 2016, but he had no hope of winning well before he conceded in early April.


Aridas said:
On a separate note, it's probably worth pointing out that when you complain about social media campaigns, it's pretty much guaranteed that the right-wing and their bots will be amplifying anything negative about anyone they consider a political threat and working to create more if they think they can, and that, for example, Facebook's algorithm was altered a fair while ago to strongly favor right-wing propaganda.
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While it is true that right wing propaganda is more easily spread, the progressives that I know, both here, on FB and in real life, all pushed that stuff at least as hard as the right did.




Aridas said:
Other countries? I'm talking about using a somewhat objective scale, as I said. Using the fundamentally nebulous and constantly shifting state of any one country's current politics will inevitably be quite inaccurate and manipulable. While it is proper for some specific uses, its usual use in reality has been distinctly improper and misleading.
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I don't see how using current American political descriptions to describe American politics and the people who push them is inacurate. I do see that claiming American progressives in the scope of the current American political landscape should not be described as the far left is inaccurate. We will have to disagree.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
I'm not implying anything?

How about you not hurl insults and then bait me into talking about the validity of the insult.

In other words, stop acting like a God damn conservative.

Let's discuss the topic.
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Accurately describing actions taken by progressives is not hurling insults at you. If you choose to be insulted by such actions, take it up with those who do them, not me for pointing them out.

If your beef is with those actually hurling insults, take it up with Delvo, Suburban Turkey, Bernie Sanders, et al. When the progressives can deign to start working with the majority of the Dems without insulting them, then you'll have room to whine about insults returned.
 
wareyin said:
Accurately describing actions taken by progressives is not hurling insults at you. If you choose to be insulted by such actions, take it up with those who do them, not me for pointing them out.



If your beef is with those actually hurling insults, take it up with Delvo, Suburban Turkey, Bernie Sanders, et al. When the progressives can deign to start working with the majority of the Dems without insulting them, then you'll have room to whine about insults returned.
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Thank you for letting me know you never had any intention of having a good faith conversation to begin with.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
I'm not implying anything?

How about you not hurl insults and then bait me into talking about the validity of the insult.

In other words, stop acting like a God damn conservative.

ETA: Let's discuss the topic. Which was *glances at notes* ah yes, phrasing things so others will be more receptive (LOL!)

Yeah. Work on that.
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Well, your ETA is quite amusing, given the rest if your post. If you wish to discuss phrasing of slogans, I refer you to post 453 where I did just that.
 
wareyin said:
Well, your ETA is quite amusing, given the rest if your post. If you wish to discuss phrasing of slogans, I refer you to post 453 where I did just that.
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You sensibly addressing the topic earlier doesn't make your later hostility more excusable.

Why would you imagine it would?
 
wareyin said:
Meh, keep complaining about hostility while refusing to discuss the topic all you want. I can't stop you.
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...

Messaging for increased receptivity, yeah.

I was pointing out that hurling insults in a conversation about that is missing the mark.

In addition to the already existing absurdity of requiring victims to find better messaging strategies to get justice.
 
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