The Biden Gun Plan

I get what you are saying and agree. There should be sufficient staff to clear up such confusions as you describe within the three day window. No excuses. No need for a ten day window. Proper funding should fix the issue.

But, there is a whole other class of applications that are submitted by people who know they can not buy a firearm just hoping to get enough of a delay to sneak pass. Those applications should be investigated and that investigation should be properly funded. People should be punished if they knowingly lied on a NICS form.

My understanding is that this is currently not pursued at all because the "knowingly" is hard to prove. My position is that just knowing that every refused application will be investigated by the ATF would be a huge deterrent for most of these people. That alone could heavily reduce the number of NICS applications being filed. I don't know, though.

Additionally, being contacted by the ATF and having a record of such contact and the ATF explained in detail why it is illegal for them to even file a NICS would make it much easier to prosecute the next time they filed a NICS.


Is that the case? Even if the gun transfers by default, my understanding is that the background check keeps going. If the feds find out you lied on your 4473, they can and will nail your ass to the wall.

I wonder if there's good stats on what happens with most of these default transactions. How many illegal sales are allowed to occur vs just regular people getting caught in the mud for no good reason.
 
Is that the case? Even if the gun transfers by default, my understanding is that the background check keeps going. If the feds find out you lied on your 4473, they can and will nail your ass to the wall.

I wonder if there's good stats on what happens with most of these default transactions. How many illegal sales are allowed to occur vs just regular people getting caught in the mud for no good reason.

One of the more active folks around here who actually knows **** about guns and transfers was educating me on this issue some years ago. I think it was RanB, but I hate to drag anyone into this by name.

The nailing your ass to the wall part apparently was not happening with any regularity at all. Like maybe a dozen or two times per year, despite thousands of rejected application. That may have changed or I may be misremembering. But I agree that the data would be interesting.
 
Here's some data points:

Banned From Owning Guns, Many ‘Lie and Try’ to Buy Them Anyway. Few Are Punished for the Crime.

Submitting false information on a background check is a felony under federal law, punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000. But as many as 160,000 people are denied a gun purchase each year because they failed a check. Few are ever apprehended, much less prosecuted. Available federal and state data suggest that the percentage of arrests as a proportion of denied sales is extremely low — likely in the single digits.

No, the Gun Background Check System Doesn’t Wrongly Reject “Millions” of Buyers
Except…the same government report Lott cites (the link to which is now down) lists fewer than .1 percent of denied gun purchases as rejected for prosecution because the buyer was incorrectly barred.

Many more weren’t prosecuted because they weren’t considered a priority by the relevant U.S. Attorney’s office, or because the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosive, the federal agency tasked with investigating denied purchasers, decided prosecutors wouldn’t even be interested.


It seems as if the gun-purchase background check is handled by the FBI or state governments, but investigation towards prosecution is handled by the ATF or state governments. There can be a disconnect.

This is an issue where I mostly agree with the pro-gun/2A advocates.


The 12 Reasons Why Americans Fail Federal Gun Background Checks

1. Convicted of a crime punishable by more than one year or a misdemeanor punishable by more than two years: 895,331
2. Fugitive from Justice: 194,254
3. Unlawful User/Addicted to a Controlled Substance: 164,287
4. Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence Conviction: 155,017
5. State Prohibitor: 97,179
6. Under Indictment/Information: 65,753
7. Protection/Restraining Order for Domestic Violence: 63,928
8. Adjudicated Mental Health: 46,266
9. Illegal/Unlawful Alien: 29,182
10. Federally Denied Persons File: 6,367
11. Dishonorable Discharge: 1,258
12. Renounced U.S. Citizenship: 101


Also worth noting that not all states are prompt about reporting information to be submitted into the NICS. There is debate over whether or not it should be funded via taxes/fees on gun sales or if it should come from general taxation - the argument is that one should not be required to pay a fee to exercise one's constitutional right to buy a firearm.

NICS & Reporting Procedures

As long as the transferee has adequately completed Form 4473, has not indicated on the form that he or she is a prohibited purchaser, has produced a valid ID, and the dealer has no reasonable cause to believe that the transferee is prohibited from possessing a firearm, the next step is for the dealer to contact the FBI’s NICS Operation Center by phone or online via the E-Check System.23

The dealer provides the Operation Center with the customer’s name and descriptive information as reported on Form 4473. In turn, the dealer must record the date of contact with NICS, the transaction number provided by NICS, and the response on Form 4473. Dealers must keep these forms for at least 20 years for completed transactions and for at least five years for incomplete transactions—dealers may discard the records after these time periods have passed. Note that these records are not centralized and are instead kept at the individual locations of the over 60,000 federally licensed dealers all across the United States. A gun lobby–backed appropriations rider prohibits the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the federal agency responsible for enforcing most federal gun laws, from consolidating or centralizing these records.24
 
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The ghost gun thing is kind of a unique problem to address, as the ghost guns basically came into being as a way to get around other regulations, a loophole more or less.
Unless there is a recent change to federal law or regulations, the ghost gun issue is not a loophole. Federal law requires that any gun manufactured by a licensee or made for sale, and any NFA firearm is required to have a serial number.

Federal law has never required an unlicensed person like myself to engrave any homemade, non-NFA, gun unless I transfer it to another person.

"Ghost gun" is a term made up by the press to describe the rise in popularity of making your own gun at home. It is easier to make an aluminum AR-15 lower receiver than just about any other gun receiver, so that is the most popular kind made by the do-it yourself hobbyists.

Ranb

ETA; As far as I can tell, no rules exist that require a serial number for a non-NFA firearm that is made and possessed by the unlicensed maker. Most of the rules only apply to licensees, commerce and rule breakers. https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/

Although not required, BATFE has stated: “ . . . we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.” http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html Again, this is simply a suggestion and not a legal requirement.
 
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"Ghost gun" is a term made up by the press to describe the rise in popularity of making your own gun at home. It is easier to make an aluminum AR-15 lower receiver than just about any other gun receiver, so that is the most popular kind made by the do-it yourself hobbyists.

Ranb

This is where I disagree.

Some guns are made at home by hobbyists such as yourself, who enjoy the craftmanship and tinkering. That's not done with the intent of evading regulations, and that includes some who buy the AR-15 kits.

But others buy the ghost gun kits as a means of getting a reliable rifle without resorting to sketchy black market deals but also without any record of purchasing a firearm. No background check, no official purchase of a "gun", no serial number to trace back to the original purchase, should the gun ever get recovered at a crime scene. Evading regulations is precisely why many people get such kits. (Not you, I get that. You are not everyone.)
 
This is where I disagree.

Some guns are made at home by hobbyists such as yourself, who enjoy the craftmanship and tinkering. That's not done with the intent of evading regulations, and that includes some who buy the AR-15 kits.

But others buy the ghost gun kits as a means of getting a reliable rifle without resorting to sketchy black market deals but also without any record of purchasing a firearm. No background check, no official purchase of a "gun", no serial number to trace back to the original purchase, should the gun ever get recovered at a crime scene. Evading regulations is precisely why many people get such kits. (Not you, I get that. You are not everyone.)

They are not evading regulation. They are complying with regulation.
 
They are not evading regulation. They are complying with regulation.

They are evading the intent of the regulation by doing a thing that was not conceived of when the regulation was developed. Note that I did not say they were breaking the regulation.
 
This is where I disagree.

Some guns are made at home by hobbyists such as yourself, who enjoy the craftmanship and tinkering. That's not done with the intent of evading regulations, and that includes some who buy the AR-15 kits.

But others buy the ghost gun kits as a means of getting a reliable rifle without resorting to sketchy black market deals but also without any record of purchasing a firearm. No background check, no official purchase of a "gun", no serial number to trace back to the original purchase, should the gun ever get recovered at a crime scene. Evading regulations is precisely why many people get such kits. (Not you, I get that. You are not everyone.)

How often are ghost guns found at crime scenes, or otherwise implicated in shooting crimes? I don't think any of the mass shootings reported in the media have involved ghost guns.

Going after ghost guns seems like the kind of thing a president would do in John Wick's America, where there's a vast organization of elite assassins busting caps all day every day. Because those guys for sure would be building their own untraceable guns. And there'd be enough of them running around to be a proper scourge on society.

And while gun crime is most definitely a scourge on society, the majority of it seems to be done with plain old legitimately-manufactured guns that have been diverted to the black market.

A small but significant (and sensational) minority of gun crime seems to be done with plain old legitimately-manufactured guns that have been purposed for mass killing by their owner. Who may or may not have acquired the gun legally themselves.

(Some substantial minority of gun crime seems to involve plain old legitimately-manufactured guns that were diverted to the black market by the government agencies supposed to be preventing exactly that. Maybe Biden should issue an executive order establishing better oversight of those agencies. That being pretty much the president's entire job.)
 
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Daily:


'Ghost guns' investigation: Law enforcement seeing unserialized firearms on daily basis in SoCal

"Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these 'ghost guns'," said Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division. "What's changed is technology. The technology makes it easy for someone to make one of these, even to mass produce these."

Investigators say a "ghost gun" was used in the November shooting at Saugus High School by the teenage gunman who killed two classmates and injured three others. A "ghost gun" was also used by the suspect who killed CHP Officer Andre Moye Junior in Riverside last summer.


And growing: San Diego Police confiscate 169% more ghost guns in 2020 compared to 2019; 2021 expected to surpass that


Google is your friend. "Ghost Gun Crimes" turns up a whole lot of results, not just repeats of a few events.


ETA: I mean, I agree that most gun crimes are still committed with traditionally manufactured guns. But that does not mean that we can't also address the growing newer threat as well. We can multitask with imperfect solutions rather than waiting for a single perfect solution that will never come.
 
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But others buy the ghost gun kits as a means of getting a reliable rifle without resorting to sketchy black market deals but also without any record of purchasing a firearm. No background check, no official purchase of a "gun", no serial number to trace back to the original purchase, should the gun ever get recovered at a crime scene. Evading regulations is precisely why many people get such kits. (Not you, I get that. You are not everyone.)
A person who does this to evade a bkgd check is not doing anything illegal as long as they not a prohibited person and as long as they do not make the gun for someone else without a license.

In 2015 the ATF came out with a ruling that prohibited "build parties" when in unlicensed persons would gather a a machine shop to finish the kits. It was against the rules unless the machine shop was an FFL and the guns serialized. People with their own tools were still allowed to finish the 80% kits.
 
A person who does this to evade a bkgd check is not doing anything illegal as long as they not a prohibited person and as long as they do not make the gun for someone else without a license.

Yes - that's the point I am making. Along with lots of cites showing the fact that prohibited persons can (and do) take advantage of that to get a gun with no trace, and the harm that is causing. So let's change the laws and regs so that these do get treated the same as other guns, such that prohibited persons can't just order these through the mail anymore without getting a background check.

I am not suggesting that this is currently illegal, I am arguing that laws and regs should be changed to make it illegal because it is causing harm to society.
 
Daily:


'Ghost guns' investigation: Law enforcement seeing unserialized firearms on daily basis in SoCal




And growing: San Diego Police confiscate 169% more ghost guns in 2020 compared to 2019; 2021 expected to surpass that


Google is your friend. "Ghost Gun Crimes" turns up a whole lot of results, not just repeats of a few events.


ETA: I mean, I agree that most gun crimes are still committed with traditionally manufactured guns. But that does not mean that we can't also address the growing newer threat as well. We can multitask with imperfect solutions rather than waiting for a single perfect solution that will never come.

Oh, interesting. I agree about multitasking.
 
Japan has a long tradition of honourable suicide, while America does not. I don't think the two places are comparable. Furthermore it is long-known and studied that suicide by gun is more often completed than any other method. Furtherfurthermore, it is also long-known and studied that availability of a gun makes spur-of-the-moment suicide much more likely. Other methods give a person a chance to reconsider, which reduces the overall suicide rate.

I would argue that for the goal of suicide prevention, guns have to be considered a factor, and therefore suicide should be a factor in the gun debate.

But I didn't intend to argue in this thread but to elicit the experiences of others and therefore further my own understanding. So I'm sorry for that.

We're still not an outlier on suicides though even compared to many other countries besides Japan. Even ignoring impoverished nations, we're below several developed European nations and only modestly above countries such as France, Austria, or Swizterland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Whereas with gun homicides were an order of magnitude or more above almost all other developed nations.
 
I absolutely 100% agree that the signers of the constitution agreed that they intended it to be a group right tied to the necessity of a militia and that is no longer applicable and they would look at the system now and agree to abolish the 2nd amendment.

Irrelevant.

They didn't actually write a rule that says it voids in that case. They gave a reason, and a rule, but once you write the rule the reason is irrelevant.

The government doesn't even have the authority to stop inmates from bearing arms while incarcerated.

That begs the question, do they have the right to punish anyone at all in any manner?

Is the death penalty unconstitutional because dead people cannot bear arms?
 
I am not suggesting that this is currently illegal, I am arguing that laws and regs should be changed to make it illegal because it is causing harm to society.


Here is the ruling I was referring to above. https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download
Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records.


To further complicate things, the feds define a firearm receiver to be that part which holds the bolt and trigger mechanism.
That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. 27 CFR § 478.11.


An ar-15 lower receiver contains the hammer, but not the bolt or firing mechanism (firing pin). The bolt and firing pin are contained in the upper receiver which is commonly sold by itself (stripped), as a complete assembly, a complete barreled assembly or as part of the complete firearm. The upper receiver is merely a gun part, not a gun by itself as the lower receiver is deemed to be by law.

I've read about cases in which a retired ATF agent has testified at a trial for a prohibited person who was charged with possession of a firearm for owning a stripped AR-15 lower receiver. He claimed that according to federal law, a lower receiver by itself did not meet the federal definition for a firearm.

The president can simply make a change to the CFR to change the definition of a receiver. Just like Bush and Trump did with the definition of a machine gun.

Of course any change to the CFR that Biden makes will be met with much more gloom and despair than the changes the GOP made. This will be so even if Biden's changes do not result in mass confiscations like Trump's gun grab.
 
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The media has been clueless about some of this as they are about much of anything to do with firearms.
The “pistol braces” are a kind of weird, niche thing... Normally if you were to purchase say, an AR-15, and cut off the barrel and stock... You’d have just made a “short barreled rifle”, and that’s a no-no.
But.... If the factory produces such a weapon, and markets it as a “pistol”, that’s quite legal under current definitions.
Of course, a short little AR with no stock is rather hard to shoot. So... Again under current regulations, you can add a “brace” which is “not quite a stock”.
A short extension that you can brace against your arm or put in the crook of your arm and now you have a somewhat-easier-to-shoot “pistol”.

All quite legal under current ATF regulations.

Now... The AR-loving crowd thinks these things are the bee’s knees for “home defense”, as they are handy in tight quarters but still... AR firepower.
And as noted in the recent shooting incident, all too effective for that purpose as well, at least at short range.
However, to my knowledge, that’s the only such use of this sort of weapon I’m familiar with; most folks are quite willing to use handguns or anything else they can get hold of.
I think the braces on AR pistols are pretty much silly. The people I know who have bought them pretty much did so just because they're allowed to. When it comes to home defense, there are tons of much more reasonable solutions. Like, I dunno, a plain old 12-guage shotgun? I know, silly me.

So I fear this is a bit of “see, we’re doing SOMETHING legislation, that I fear will have little if any impact.

Reading through the plan as a whole, there's a whole lot of it that is "Scary Black Rifle" syndrome, targeting weapons that make big news on the extremely rare occasions that they get used in a crime, while pretty much glossing over the fact that the overwhelming majority of gun crimes, accidents, and suicides occur with pistols.

Some comments, in no particular order:

Reduce stockpiling of weapons. In order to reduce the stockpiling of firearms, Biden supports legislation restricting the number of firearms an individual may purchase per month to one.

Yeah... there are some "doomsday militia" types out there stockpiling... but the actual violence isn't being committed by them, and the people committing those crimes are pretty much never buying more than one gun a month. Hell, my spousal unit has several firearms of vastly different types, and they're almost all a case of one a *year* because firearms are expensive. The only exception I know of is the matched set of antique-style revolvers, which he bought at the same time... because they're a matched set.

Close the “hate crime loophole.” Biden will enact legislation prohibiting an individual “who has been convicted of a misdemeanor hate crime, or received an enhanced sentence for a misdemeanor because of hate or bias in its commission” from purchasing or possessing a firearm.

I see where they're going with this, but I'm wary of allowing misdemeanors of any kind disqualify a person from a constitutional right. In this case, I'm doubly skeptical because "hate crime" is a very fuzzy notion and I can envision lots of scenarios where this gets abused.

End the online sale of firearms and ammunitions. Biden will enact legislation to prohibit all online sales of firearms, ammunition, kits, and gun parts.

I honestly have no idea why this is something to tackle in the first place. So far as I know, online sellers have pretty stringent rules already, and those sales are tracked at least as closely as brick-and-mortar sales, if not more. It might vary by state, but I was under the impression that ordering a firearm online you have to have it sent to a licensed retail shop anyway, and pay an additional handling fee, and it gets logged multiple times. This strikes me as pretend safety.

Incentivize state “extreme risk” laws. Extreme risk laws, also called “red flag” laws, enable family members or law enforcement officials to temporarily remove an individual’s access to firearms when that individual is in crisis and poses a danger to themselves or others. Biden will incentivize the adoption of these laws by giving states funds to implement them. And, he’ll direct the U.S. Department of Justice to issue best practices and offer technical assistance to states interested in enacting an extreme risk law.

This is another one that is borderline for me. The intent is good, but there's a lot of opportunity for abuse. I'm hypothetically on-board with it... but I would like to see the criteria for what constitutes "extreme risk".

Dedicate the brightest scientific minds to solving the gun violence public health epidemic.

Eh? Okay... but there are a LOT of other problems I'd like to see the brightest minds tackling, which I think would be more effective in curbing violence overall, including firearm-relates violence.

Address the epidemic of suicides by firearms.

Yeah, this is a no from me. But that really has a lot more to do with my personal view toward suicide. I'd prefer that people who have decide they've had enough take a less messy approach, simply for the sake of those they leave behind, but I don't have a moral objection to suicide in and of itself.

All in all, most of the things that are likely to have an effect are common sense ones like better background checks. The smart gun bit is interesting, and I'm all for it... as long as they can be keyed to more than one set of fingerprints so that spouses don't have to have *two* firearms for home defense.

What I didn't see, and maybe just missed, is a way to address firearms in the hands of people with significant mental health diagnoses. Seriously, my sibling is bi-polar, but does not have any criminal records. I don't want them to own a firearm; I'm barely comfortable with them owning steak knives.
 
The second amendment explicitly acknowledges a right to bear arms. Having been to many of these rodeos, I've come to the following conclusions:

- Once the Constitution recognizes a right, that genie can't be put back in the bottle.

- It is not necessary to make an exhaustive list of all the reasons to not infringe on a right. The fact that the right exists is reason enough.

- Listing one reason to not infringe on a right does not invalidate any other possible reasons.

- Invalidating the one listed reason does not mean the right may now be infringed without justification.
 

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