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The Bible on abortion

I'm sorry, it is completely inane to argue that the only reason God sacrificed his son was so that believers would obey the same moral laws and just not need to do some rituals any more. Even as an atheist this idea reeks of blasphemy. If there really were a God and he had any honor - he would be a-smiting.

What a tiny, spiteful and small God, created by similar minded followers. I'm embarrassed for the Christians here.
 
That's your chosen modus operandi not mine. As for massacre, that is conveniently tagged as strategic military operations when YOUR troops do it.
Our troops? When was the last time the 10 000 people strong Norwegian Army not only went into a city and slaughtered the entire population, but also dubbet it a 'strategic military operation'? We hardly have the manpower to defend our own country.

The mind boggles.
 
You are quoting interpretations of scripture from other web-sites. But let's look at the text again:
Robert Oz.[/QUOTE]

The above and all the rest of your accusations are based on your lack of knowledge in reference to the Mosaic Law requirements which shed light on the scripture you purport to understand. I suggest you google the subject and after becoming more knowlewdgeable
about its intricacies-then we might be able to have a more productive discussion based on the Mosaic Law and not YOUR version of the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, your methodology is
not skeptical enough since lack of researching and acceptances of mere opinions or arguing on hunches isn't considered skeptisism but is characteristic of those susceptible to gullibility instead.
 
You are quoting interpretations of scripture from other web-sites. But let's look at the text again:

Deuteronomy
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Show me where it says (whether in this verse or another) that the son was a full-blown rebel of criminal disposition.

Whose writing their own version of the Bible now?

The verse says the parents shall bring the child out and the men of his city shall stone him. Whether the parents obey the law or not, God decreed the stoning of the child as appropriate.

You have changed scripture to read:

Deuteronomy
21:18 If a man have a full-blown stubborn and rebellious son of criminal disposition, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, or the law, and that, when they have chastened him, and threatened him with the full force of the law will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then may his father and his mother, if they so wish, lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they may, if they so wish, say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious son and has a criminal disposition, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard, and a criminal.
21:21 And all the men of his city after giving the son a fair trial with two of his peers good and true may sentence him to be stoned with stones, that he die: so may thou put evil away from among you if you really want to; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Alternatively, you can just kill a lamb and all is good.

You change the Bible when it suits you and say others read it out of context when they read the text as written.

Robert Oz.

All your accusations are based on your ignorance of the Mosaic Law.
 
Our troops? When was the last time the 10 000 people strong Norwegian Army not only went into a city and slaughtered the entire population, but also dubbet it a 'strategic military operation'? We hardly have the manpower to defend our own country.

The mind boggles.

By YOUR troops I mean, as you probably already know, your military personnel who are ordered to carpet bomb cities full of children such as Dresden and then tag the slaughter as a strategic or tactical necessity. Personally it doesn't matter what country you are from for the discussion purpose of this thread. So please take my comments within that context. Otherwise the demand for constant clarification makes discussion so onerous that it becomes impossible. Thanx!
 
Going back to the OP – most Jews believe that the bible (i.e., 5 books of Moses) can’t be understood without the Talmud.

I thought this article from Slate had a good summary of the Talmud's position on abortion:
http://www.slate.com/id/1005956/

There’s an old joke that if you have two Jews you will get three opinions and I think the Slate article conveyed that nicely as well. But I also thought it did a good job conveying where the various opinions agree:

... one thing everybody agrees about [ed. note: in the Talmud] , whether abortion resembles murder or not, is that in the case of a threat to the mother's life, Jewish law requires you to save her rather than the fetus.


<snip>

Opinions diverge again, however, over how elastic to make this notion of threat. Rabbis who think abortion is like murder believe that only imminent physical or psychological danger--such as a suicide threat accompanied by clear signs of psychosis and a psychiatrist's evaluation--constitute sufficient grounds for an abortion, because then you can argue that the woman does it in self-defense. Rabbis who think abortion is like cutting off a leg will permit abortion in cases of less physical threat to the woman. When the justification is psychological, they'll accept that mere anguish might be reason enough to warrant the procedure, rather than require her to show that she is insane. (Having been raped might be one such cause for distress; the prospect of raising a seriously deformed child might be another.)

Rabbis also offer a dizzying menu of views about how early or late into a pregnancy the procedure can be performed, ranging from only up to 40 days after conception to up to the beginning of the third term. (If the birthing process seems likely to be fatal for the mother, you can remove the fetus at the very last moment--until the head crowns, at which point the fetus becomes a person with a soul and a full legal identity.) These debates derive from different verses than the ones cited above. In one such verse, the fetus is deemed to be little more than water until quickening (in the ancient world, 40 days after insemination).
 
The world makes much more sense if you can put two of the opinions on ignore and only listen to your own counsel. :D
 
Going back to the OP – most Jews believe that the bible (i.e., 5 books of Moses) can’t be understood without the Talmud.

Most Jews also believe that they can follow the law partially when the Law requires them to observe every detail of its requirements such as offering animal sacrifices and building a tabernacle. Believe Jesus was just a misguided prophet. Believe it's a sin to mention God's name despite the fact that God specifically tells them to make his name known. And some even presumpuously add to the law by viewing the pressing of an elevator button or the opening of a door as a violation of the Sabbath.
 
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LOL! And you got your semicha from where?

The OP asked if abortion was OK according to the bible. To the best of my knowledge very few people follow the 5 Books alone. Most Jews follow it in context of the Talmud and afaik, Christians follow it where its not overridden by the new testament. The only exception, afaik, are the Karaites a very small sect that probably doesn't exceed 30,000 people in the entire world.

I have no background in Christianity, but I had something to add to the thread when it came to the Jewish perspective -- so I did and that will be the extent of my contribution. I don't do comparative religion debates as I don't find it helpful in getting along with others.
 
I was aware OT laws no longer apply.

The trouble is, they apparently they still apply:

Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:18-19

Which laws from the OT apply and which do not? On what basis?

The ones that give religious justification to the believer's bigotries and prejudices, of course.
 
Some of these Bible verses have been mentioned, some haven't. But I'm going to post them together with the Skeptic's Annotated Bible's summary of, What the Bible says about Abortion
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

And, some additional opinions as linked from the SAB, again, repeated similar comments already noted:

The Bible vs. Abortion? - By capella
Exodus 21:22 (RSV) When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.

Of the 31,273 verses in the Bible, there is no mention of abortion as a voluntary termination of a pregnancy. The above verse is the only one that mentions a penalty for causing an accidental termination of a pregnancy. It says the person at fault has to pay the husband a fine.

It then goes on to mention that if the woman is harmed however, then it’s a life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc…

So the killing of a woman results in death but the killing of a fetus results in only a fine.

It would seem that if the Bible considered abortion murder, then the penalty for killing a fetus should also be death?

By The Book Comics - A hopefully humorous look at the Bible, Christianity, and the wacky dogma they spread.
For some reason, pro-life Christians think their God is against abortion and baby-killing. I don't get it! There are lots of examples to the contrary in the Bible. I mean, who has killed more babies than the Christian God? Have you read these passages?

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Exodus 12:29 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt..."

2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Isaiah 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

I ask you... How can Christians carry that book around and swear by it's contents, but have absolutely no :rule10 idea what it says? Amazing!!!

Liberalism Resurgent: A response to the right
Myth: The Bible forbids abortion. - Fact: All Biblical arguments on abortion are indirect and open to debate.

Summary
The Bible does not comment directly on abortion, even though abortion was practiced even then. All Biblical arguments on abortion are indirect and open to interpretation, and debate continues even among the world's most respected theologians. Even so, the Bible seems to suggest in several places that the unborn are not endowed with the qualities or rights of personhood. In fact, the Jews, who are famous for their preservation of tradition, have never considered abortion to be a sin.
The full discussion can be found on the link.
 
The main fault of this article is that it assumes that because God is authorized to decide when life should be terminated then we can also follow suite. That is like a child observing a parent making life or death decisions and wanting to do the same without having the required wisdom to do so. In short-it comes across as petulant pouting in order to misbehave.


But let's consider some of the details anyway:

One of the fallacious arguments cited above is that because God orders the taking of fetal life that life has no value. But fetal life isn't the only life God orders terminated. He also terminates adult life. Does that mean that he doesn't value adult human life and animal life. Does that mean he doesn't value these as well?

If we are to remain consistent-something which atheists and self-proclaimed bible scholars are averse to do, then we have to reach that conclusion. But I am more than sure that the authors aren't arguing that God doesn't value all life but just the fetal life they cunningly focus on. Which makes their argument inconsistent and fallacious.

In fact, taken within context, another thing which atheists and anti-biblical folk are averse to do-then we find that we can't reach that conclusion since there are many instances in which God does show his concern for both animal and human life. So the argument falls on its face on two counts-logic and scriptural context.

Another area where the article errs is in not differentiating between what God orders and what God predicts will occur to people due to their disobedience.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Isaiah 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

These statements are put forth in the article as God's commands when they are prophecies of what will occur at the hands of invading army due to Israel's rejection of God's protection.

Now, since that is the case, it means that those citing the scriptures as God's commands are either ignorant of what they are citing, or else they are knowledgeable but purposefully misrepresenting what they are citing in order to fool the people they consider gullible into believing their misrepresentations.

Another scripture cited has to do with King David and his adultery with Bath Sheba and the murdering of her husband.

2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.


In short, David impregnated this man's wife and then ordered him to be murdered. Then he tried to keep it secrete from God's prophet Samuel. As a punishment the child was not allowed to be born in this world as punishment for David's misdeed. Using such a scripture as proof that God is a mindless killer of the unborn is ridiculous since it is clearly a judicial matter involving punishment.

Then there is the matter of his taking the firstborn of Egypt.
Exodus 12:29 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt..."

Again, this cannot be used as a scripture to demonstrate that God doesn't value human life because if we do so then we would have to apply that to Israel as well. In short, the generalization doesn't hold because too many counterexamples are available to contradict that generalization. In fact, the counterexamples are such that they make that generalization totally unwarranted.

It's like saying that the USA government doesn't value human life due to its killing people during the Second World War. True, people were killed. But the generalization just doesn't fly.

The article complete disregard for logic proves that those who wrote it aren't so much interested in providing believable truth as they are in besmirching anything biblical at all costs. The provision of believable info requires strict adherence to logic and literary context. A person violating these two requirements is presumptuously insulting a reader's intelligence by expecting the reader to accept faulty reasoning due to supposed ignorance or lack of sufficient education.

BTW

Exodus 21:
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury,the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

The article assumes that the injury irefers only to the mother. However, there is absolutely no scriptural basis for that assumption. Instead, unauthorized inflicted human death, be it accidental or otherwise, is considered punishable by death.

Genesis 9
6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man

There is no scriptural basis to exclude the miscarried baby from this rule.
 
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One of the fallacious arguments cited above is that because God orders the taking of fetal life that life has n value. But fetal life isn't the only life God orders terminated. He also terminates adult life. Does that mean that he doesn't value adult human life and animal life. Does that mean he doesn't value these as well?
Actually, yes. That's the gist I get reading the Bible.

If we are to remain consistent-something which atheists and self-proclaimed bible scholars are averse to do, then we have to reach that conclusion. But I am more than sure that the authors aren't arguing that God doesn't value all life but just the fetal life they cunningly focus on. Which makes their argument inconsistent and fallacious.
This ignores the references to fetal killing as an inconsequential side effect of God's actual intended target. It ignores the statement of a clearly different value in shekels of fetuses and older babies and not counting an infant as existing until 1 month of age. All are not of equal value in the eyes of your Lord.

In fact, taken within context, another thing which atheists and anti-biblical folk are averse to do-then we find that we can't reach that conclusion since there are many instances in which God does show his concern for both animal and human life. So the argument falls on its face on two counts-logic and scriptural context.
The argument that falls on its face here is twofold. One, that the Bible is some clear religious text of a god, because it is impossible to figure out what is meant; and two, that you know what the Bible means when you admit how inconsistent it is.

Another area whare the article errs is in not differentiating between what God orders and what God predicts will occur to people due to their disobedience. Some of the statements in the article are put forth as God's commands when they are prophecies of what will occur at the hands of invading army due to Israel's rejection of God's protection.
So if God punishes the Israelites for rejection of God's protection by using a surrogate to do the dirty deed, it really isn't God's doing? You sound like the poor abused child convinced it is their fault for the abuse done to them by their parent. I realize that is what you believe your religion calls for, blaming the victim for bringing on the pain and suffering themselves. But as an objective observer looking at the same facts without being indoctrinated into believing the victim deserved whatever it is that the victim got, I see it as a belief in a horrible vengeful god that tortures people for no obvious reason, for minor infractions, and for not worshiping that god.

Now, since that is the case, it means that those citing the scriptures as God's commands are either ignorant of what they are citinmg, or else they are knowledgeable but purposefully misrepresentinmg what they are citing in order to fool the people they consider gullibler into believing their misrepresentations.
I have no vested interest in fooling anyone. I don't think blaming the victim in this case is appropriate when I read the text. And if you'd care to specifically say which of those passages is God saying what will happen if you break this rule and which of those passages is God saying if you break this rule, I will see to it this happens to you, I'd be happy to just deal with the remaining verses. But you'll have to be more clear on what the heck the difference is because as I wrote that it didn't look very different.



BTW

The article complete disregard for logic proves that those who wrote it aren't so much interested in providing believable truth as they are in besmirching anything biblical at all costs. The provision of beliervable info requires strict adherence to logic and literary context. A person violatiung these two requirements is presumptuously insulting a reader's intelligence by expecting the reader to accept faulty reasoning due to supposed ignorance or lack of sufficient educatioin.
This looks like classic meme selection kicking in. Are you familiar with religion as a meme hypothesis? When you are confronted with facts that contradict your beliefs, rather than recognize the facts, religious beliefs have a built in mechanism that protects the belief from being overridden. It ensures the beliefs will survive and thus be able to reproduce much as natural selection favors genes that then survive and are then able to reproduce.

If the facts conflict with your belief, then attack the messenger and thereby avoid having to actually examine the facts. This is especially frequent when a Bible apologist cannot actually address the Biblical contradiction to either the believer's interpretation, or the contradictions which are so prevalent throughout the Bible itself.
 
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Actually, yes. That's the gist I get reading the Bible.

And you are entitled to that gist.

This ignores the references to fetal killing as an inconsequential side effect of God's actual intended target. It ignores the statement of a clearly different value in shekels of fetuses and older babies and not counting an infant as existing until 1 month of age. All are not of equal value in the eyes of your Lord.

You are ignoring the purpose of the law covenant-to make sins manifest.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

To make us aware of our need for redemption:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Ignoring scriptures which tell us God is impartial;


Acts 10:34
[ Preaching to Cornelius’ Household ] Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.

Acts 10:33-35
Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

You are also ignoring the scriptures which speak of partiality as sin.

James 2:9
but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.


The argument that falls on its face here is twofold. One, that the Bible is some clear religious text of a god, because it is impossible to figure out what is meant; and two, that you know what the Bible means when you admit how inconsistent it is.

I never admitted that the Bible is inconsistent.
Neither did I admit that it is impossible to figure out.
Those are YOUR beliefs and sentiments not mine.


So if God punishes the Israelites for rejection of God's protection by using a surrogate to do the dirty deed, it really isn't God's doing?

You are ignoring another scripture:

Galatians 6:7-10
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.....


You sound like the poor abused child convinced it is their fault for the abuse done to them by their parent. I realize that is what you believe your religion calls for, blaming the victim for bringing on the pain and suffering themselves. But as an objective observer looking at the same facts without being indoctrinated into believing the victim deserved whatever it is that the victim got, I see it as a belief in a horrible vengeful god that tortures people for no obvious reason, for minor infractions, and for not worshiping that god.

I guess we differ in our perceptions.



I have no vested interest in fooling anyone.

Neither have I.


I don't think blaming the victim in this case is appropriate when I read the text.

The question is does he have the RIGHT to terminate life whenever he chooses to do so without first having to offer us an apology or request our permission. I don't see human governments and judges doing that-do you? They just proceed according to the rules.


And if you'd care to specifically say which of those passages is God saying what will happen if you break this rule and which of those passages is God saying if you break this rule, I will see to it this happens to you, I'd be happy to just deal with the remaining verses. But you'll have to be more clear on what the heck the difference is because as I wrote that it didn't look very different.

Reading the whole chapter of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all the other major prophets is necessary to see what those prophecies are really about. They simply tell Israel what will happen at the hand of foreign invaders, such as Babylonians and Assyrians because of their rejecting him as God. In any case, I'm not denying that he did order certain executions and that those executions involved children. What I am saying, however, is that most of those quotes are simply prophecies of what will happen to Israel due to its voluntary disobedience to God's laws.


This looks like classic meme selection kicking in. Are you familiar with religion as a meme hypothesis? When you are confronted with facts that contradict your beliefs, rather than recognize the facts, religious beliefs have a built in mechanism that protects the belief from being overridden. It ensures the beliefs will survive and thus be able to reproduce much as natural selection favors genes that then survive and are then able to reproduce.

That's applicable to what you are doing with the Bible-selecting and citing out of context in order to support what you think the Bible really says without taking the time nor making the effort to at least read the books from which you are citing. Me? I'm merely pointing out where you are going wrong.

If the facts conflict with your belief, then attack the messenger and thereby avoid having to actually examine the facts.

It's the messenger's flawed methodology not the messenger I am criticizing. As for facts, we differ in our perception of what are the facts.


This is especially frequent when a Bible apologist cannot actually address the Biblical contradiction to either the believer's interpretation, or the contradictions which are so prevalent throughout the Bible itself.

Perceived biblical contradiction due to comprehension inability is a phenomenon involving subjectivity.
 
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And you are entitled to that gist.

You are ignoring the purpose of the law covenant-to make sins manifest.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

To make us aware of our need for redemption:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Ignoring scriptures which tell us God is impartial;


Acts 10:34
[ Preaching to Cornelius’ Household ] Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.

Acts 10:33-35
Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

You are also ignoring the scriptures which speak of partiality as sin.

James 2:9
but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
I am not ignoring anything, Rad, I am not looking at this junk from the position there must be meaning in it and translating the text to fit that preconceived conclusion. But that is what you are doing.


Just as your following comment says:
I never admitted that the Bible is inconsistent.
Neither did I admit that it is impossible to figure out.
Those are YOUR beliefs and sentiments not mine.
You cannot see the gross inconsistencies within the Bible which are as plain as day. These have been pointed out to you with direct quotes and you mentally just block out the facts.

One cannot help you there.


You are ignoring another scripture:

Galatians 6:7-10
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.....
Which is saying, the victim is responsible. All the pain and suffering in this world and you think each and every one of those poor souls deserved it, they must have sinned somewhere sometime. All the cancers, all the child abuse, all the slavery, rape, poverty, floods, wars, cruelty... all that... those people must have sinned and they must have deserved it because you believe, "scriptures which tell us God is impartial".


I guess we differ in our perceptions.
That's an understatement.


The question is does he have the RIGHT to terminate life whenever he chooses to do so without first having to offer us an apology or request our permission. I don't see human governments and judges doing that-do you? They just proceed according to the rules.
The question in this thread was, is there anything in the Bible that says God specifically forbids abortion and states unequivocally that abortion is a sin. The OP wasn't about any rights to an abortion or no rights to one.


Reading the whole chapter of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all the other major prophets is necessary to see what those prophecies are really about. They simply tell Israel what will happen at the hand of foreign invaders, such as Babylonians and Assyrians because of their rejecting him as God. In any case, I'm not denying that he did order certain executions and that those executions involved children. What I am saying, however, is that most of those quotes are simply prophecies of what will happen to Israel due to its voluntary disobedience to God's laws.

That's applicable to what you are doing with the Bible-selecting and citing out of context in order to support what you think the Bible really says without taking the time nor making the effort to at least read the books from which you are citing. Me? I'm merely pointing out where you are going wrong.

It's the messenger's flawed methodology not the messenger I am criticizing. As for facts, we differ in our perception of what are the facts.

Perceived biblical contradiction due to comprehension inability is a phenomenon involving subjectivity.
You think if you make claims that you have read the entire book or entire Bible that we are going to think you have special knowledge others do not possess? I have read almost the entire Bible as have many atheists who post in this forum. I was not impressed, nor did I find anything I have posted here to be taken out of context as you would like us to believe.

I don't find your posting of Bible quotes which support what we do agree on: the Biblical god is vengeful, cruel, and blames people for everything horrible in this world; includes anything that supports your position that somewhere in the Bible the text clearly and unequivocally states abortion is a sin.
 
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Why does something tell me that Radrook believes all atheists are "satanically inspired" and he's just arguing with them to strengthen his own position. I have a strong feeling that anything that disagrees with his god-beliefs gets labeled "satanic" by him. It is a pretty easy "out", after all -- sort of a flip-side to "goddidit".

Or, perhaps he's simply trying to gain converts/spread the "good news" via internet rather than door-to-door.

Anyway, I wanted to say that I've learned a lot from the posters who are trying to reason with him. Thank you.
 
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Why does something tell me that Radrook believes all atheists are "satanically inspired" and he's just arguing with them to strengthen his own position. I have a strong feeling that anything that disagrees with his god-beliefs gets labeled "satanic" by him. It is a pretty easy "out", after all -- sort of a flip-side to "goddidit".

Part of the teachings of the Watchtower is the warnings against apostate literature and apostate thought, which is why Radrook is so swift with the ignore button. The JWs honestly believe that contact with seriously dissenting views is diabolic.



In direct reference to your question I refer you to this quote from the Watchtower Magazine, the unquestionable doctrinal word of the Watchtower organisation aka the Jehovah's Witnesses (quoted at http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/thoughtpolice.htm) :

""How could one become guilty of partaking of the table of demons in our day? By serving the interests of anything opposed to Jehovah. The table of demons includes all demonic propaganda, which is designed to mislead and to turn us away from Jehovah. Who would want to feed his heart and mind on such poison?" (The Watchtower; July 1, 1994, p. 9)."


There's more on that site discussing the views of JWs to critical thinking in general:

"The Watchtower's View of Independent Thinking Amongst Jehovah's Witnesses
Despite its criticisms of the Catholic Church there are clearly double standards in view as to the issue of independent thinking. The Watchtower Society condemns others for stifling free thought, when they themselves are guilty of doing the same to their members. The following quotes from Watchtower sources demonstrate this:
"[A] mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbour private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (Watchtower, August 1st, 2001, p. 14).​
"In the world, there is a tendency to reject leadership. As one lecturer said: "The rising education level has improved the talent pool such that followers have become so critical that they are almost impossible to lead." But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God's organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us." (The Watchtower, September 15, 1989, p. 23, 13).​
"Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 p. 22).​
"And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: 'This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe.' This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous? Such thinking is an evidence of pride. And the Bible says: 'Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.' (Proverbs 16:18) If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: 'Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God's organization?' No, we cannot!.. Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, January 15, 1983 p. 27).​
"The student must express himself as he understands the truth. (Gal. 6:6) He cannot have independent thinking."(The Watchtower, September 1, 1962, p. 524)​
Obviousely, because the Watchtower discourages its members to think independently, any individual Jehovah’s Witnesses who begins to formulate their own views and interpretations of doctrine and faith, even in small areas, are greatly frowned upon. The writer of this present article personally knows of some Jehovah’s Witnesses who differ with the Watchtower organisation in some areas of belief, but would not dare make this known to others in the organisation for fear of reprisals.


Even so, Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do hold some secret independent views may argue that even though the Watchtower does not permit them to have personal opinions in matters of belief, neither do many churches. There is some truth here but the parallel is a poor one. Even though a Christian Church may not tolerate someone who actively, and consciously, objected to major doctrines (for example, the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, or that salvation was in Christ alone, etc.), they would not have any problems with a person who disagreed on minor issues (such as whether a person should speak in tongues or not, whether the return of Christ is at the beginning of the tribulation, the middle, or the end, etc.). Such things often considered by the majority of churches to be secondary issues. However, in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the average Jehovah’s Witness is expected to conform to every doctrine, even those in which one would expect some sort of flexibility and individuality of conscience. Those who would even harbour private views at odds with the Watchtower’s teachings, let alone actively making their views made public, are simply not tolerated. So the key difference is this: In a Christian church there is some room for flexibility of difference of opinion in minor areas of doctrine. But among Jehovah’s Witnesses all members are expected to conform to every doctrine and teaching be it major or minor."
 
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Women are the gateway to evil, every priest knows that. So arguing the morality of abortion with respect to the Bible is moot.
 

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