The BBC and Islam: sensitivity or sycophancy?

[FireGarden]

scimystic

Every time we take them seriously, every time we say 'pbuh', or Jesus Christ, or His Holiness The Pope, or some other such rubbish, we further confirm and legitimize their insanity.

But "we" are not doing it.

The BBC is their voice as much as yours and mine. The religious have the right to expect the beeb to pander to them as much as you have the right to expect the beeb to pander to you. They pay the liscence fee, just as I do. (Just as you do, if you're British and own a TV).

 

[Darat]

Yes Darat, I read the whole thread, and checked the links. Like CEO, I simply disagree with you in regard to your "entirely appropriate". I don't think that reason pandering to religion in any way is appropriate.


...snip...

That is a slightly different approach to the question then what most contributors to the thread have been using. Most contributors have been answering this in regards to what the BBC is legally required to do and given the BBC's legal obligations I maintain their usage of the term is entirely appropriate.

 

[FireGarden]

ceo_esq

I think we would all find [the "Christ"] analogy more apt if we were discussing, say, the BBC's use of "the Prophet" before Mohammad's name.

Does "Christ" mean "Prophet"? Or does it mean "annointed" or "Messiah"?

Why should Jesus be given a more illustrious title than given to Mohammed or Moses? Oh wait... Because that's how Christians refer to Jesus.

So the Beeb is being consistent.

The website states "The BBC uses the pbuh in the Islam section out of courtesy, and we would do the same for any other religion if they had a similar phrase that was universally used as a sign of respect." Accordingly, one might be justified in expecting that the section on Christianity would, for example, capitalize the pronoun he when referring to Jesus. For whatever reason, it does not.

Do Christians captilise pronouns for Jesus?
Not in the copy supplied to me by the Gideons. or in their on-line copy:

[Matthew 3:13-4]Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

http://www.gideons.org/kjv/livebible.cfm?reading=B40C003.htm

 

[ceo_esq]

Do Christians captilise pronouns for Jesus?
Not in the copy supplied to me by the Gideons. or in their on-line copy:

[Matthew 3:13-4]Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

http://www.gideons.org/kjv/livebible.cfm?reading=B40C003.htm

For a very long time it has been a Christian convention to capitalize personal - and often, even relative - pronouns referring to the Father, the Son, and/or the Holy Spirit. Perhaps that convention is no longer observed quite as rigorously as it formerly was.

 

[Beerina]

ceo_esq


Does "Christ" mean "Prophet"? Or does it mean "annointed" or "Messiah"?

It's Greek for Messiah.

So you're saying, "Jesus, the Messiah", when you say "Jesus Christ". Both "christ" (Greek) and "messiah" (Hebrew/Aramaic) both literally mean "anointed". So ultimately it's "Jesus the Anointed" in either language. Anointing is, of course, the pouring of long-chain hydrocarbons on the body, typically the craniofacial areas, a pattern of molecular placement and interaction through the chronal dimension that certain hypothized transhuman entities supposedly recognize and infuse with ephemeral meaning.

Other items of interest: "Amen" means "so be it". "Alleluia" means literally "praise Yah", as in Yahweh.

 

[Beerina]

For a very long time it has been a Christian convention to capitalize personal - and often, even relative - pronouns referring to the Father, the Son, and/or the Holy Spirit. Perhaps that convention is no longer observed quite as rigorously as it formerly was.

Well, it's not just those pronouns. Some others are always capitalized, too, i think. Don't You?

 

[ceo_esq]

Anointing is, of course, the pouring of long-chain hydrocarbons on the body, typically the craniofacial areas, a pattern of molecular placement and interaction through the chronal dimension that certain hypothized transhuman entities supposedly recognize and infuse with ephemeral meaning.

I think the meaning accorded to anointing is supposed to be durable rather than ephemeral.

Well, it's not just those pronouns. Some others are always capitalized, too, i think. Don't You?

You is a personal pronoun, isn't it? I think the convention in question, accordingly, calls for it to be capitalized with respect to deity, but not capitalized otherwise (except at the beginning of a sentence or pursuant to some other general rule).

 

[ceo_esq]

Does "Christ" mean "Prophet"? Or does it mean "annointed" or "Messiah"?

Why should Jesus be given a more illustrious title than given to Mohammed or Moses? Oh wait... Because that's how Christians refer to Jesus.

So the Beeb is being consistent.

You can refer to Firegarden's response to your first question. I agree that it is consistent for the BBC to refer to the "Prophet Muhammad" and to "Jesus Christ". However, the use of the term "Prophet" is not what we've been discussing, so it's not clear why this observation is especially relevant.

 

[scimystic]

That is a slightly different approach to the question then what most contributors to the thread have been using. Most contributors have been answering this in regards to what the BBC is legally required to do and given the BBC's legal obligations I maintain their usage of the term is entirely appropriate.

If our discussion is only about the legal standpoint then I think that you're right.

Firegarden's point also has merit. I don't think that I did (when I lived in England) expect the Beeb to pander to me. But perhaps I'm being a curmudgeon in wishing that it would more clearly and explicitly take the side of reason.

 

[FireGarden]

Beerina

So you're saying, "Jesus, the Messiah", when you say "Jesus Christ". Both "christ" (Greek) and "messiah" (Hebrew/Aramaic) both literally mean "anointed". So ultimately it's "Jesus the Anointed" in either language. Anointing is, of course, the pouring of long-chain hydrocarbons on the body

Jesus Christ -- The Greasey One?

I think it means the "Chosen One", or the Deliverer or some such. You can't cover yourself in long-chain hydrocarbons and call yourself the Messiah!


EDIT: Atleast, not with a captial "M". With a capital, your dictionary site defines "Messiah" as "the expected king and deliverer of the Jews."

 

[FireGarden]

ceo_esq

I agree that it is consistent for the BBC to refer to the "Prophet Muhammad" and to "Jesus Christ". However, the use of the term "Prophet" is not what we've been discussing, so it's not clear why this observation is especially relevant.

"Prophet" and "Christ" are nothing like the same. The point of raising the reference to Jesus Chirst is that Jews do not call Jesus "the Christ", neither do Muslims. Only Christians give Jesus that very special honorific. That's probably why Jesus is referred to as simply "Jesus" (or "Isa") in the Muslim section of their site.

I see appending "The Messiah" to the name of Jesus as being at least the same as appending the blessing "pbuh" to the name of Mohammed. Actually, while "pbuh" is reserved for prophets, it confers no extra title. (Generally "God rest his soul", is used after speaking of loved ones that have died. It's not actually the same phrase in Arabic, though I would say it's synonymous -- just used for different people.) So labeling Jesus "The Messiah" may even be a bigger concession to the religious than blessing Mohammed.

For a very long time it has been a Christian convention to capitalize personal - and often, even relative - pronouns referring to the Father, the Son, and/or the Holy Spirit. Perhaps that convention is no longer observed quite as rigorously as it formerly was.

I've seen that convention applied to God in the OT. I honestly do not remember seeing that convention applied to Jesus. Stamenflicker doesn't capitalise pronouns for Jesus:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1335811&postcount=14

To determine whether Jesus was who the gospels make him out to be

In fact, googling turned up examples. HumbleBee capitalises pronouns for Jesus on christianity forums. And there are at least a few posters on RaptureReady also.

But it's not universal. And the Beeb says they'd do the same for phrases used universally. I think they're justified in copying the Gideons.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I think it's about time the BBC was touched by HIS noodly appendage.