The Australian "custody sisters"

[fuelair]

There seems to be a danger of a fire around here with all this straw building up.

Perhaps we could send the straw to New England to help with the current cold and snow problem (Damn, I'm glad there is no global warming!!! )

 

[fuelair]

To say "the girls cried at the airport" grotesquely understates the trauma they experienced. By trivializing what happened to them, by comparing it to children who cry when they don't get ice cream, you reveal more about yourself than you may realize. Indeed, your comments throughout this thread are telling. I can see that you are wound up, all but choking with rage, and it's not pretty.

That is why I asked the question I did earlier and expected the answer I got.
(that is not against joe6P, that is logic).

 

[Wildy]

Interesting.

So much of the discussion here, as well as the court's decision, is framed around a perception of the mother.

The court's decision is based on the facts at hand, which is more than just the perception of the mother.

She's a kidnapper, she's a villain, etc., so anything done to wrest her children away is by definition in their best interest.

So what is she in your mind?

I don't accept that glib syllogism. I'm quite willing to consider that the mother and her family may have handled this situation badly. But the way to counter that is not to pour gasoline on the fire, unleashing the police with instructions to use whatever force is necessary.

So at what point is the law to be enforced?

We might see that as the administration of the law. For the kids, it was a physical assault and a vivid confirmation of their worst fears. If the mother indoctrinated the kids, the police ended up validating the doctrine: fear your father, fear his power to control your lives, fear the agents who do his bidding.

And in the case of the elder children, one of their own making. But then the media seemed to know exactly when they were going to be taken away, so perhaps they were putting on a show for the cameras?

It cannot have been the only option available. If the court felt that the mother and her family had used the powers of persuasion to manipulate the kids, perhaps they should have made a civilized effort at counter-persuasion. Perhaps this father could have flown to Australia to re-unite with his children in a mediated environment where everyone felt safe.

And then what? Hope they return to Italy so the Italian courts can decide custody? He goes home alone and has the courts over there and find in his favour ultimately using the same laws to force the kids to go back to Italy?

 

[joesixpack]

But I can see this is pointless...

Yes it is. That's because you are completely lacking in principle.

 

[joesixpack]

I'm wondering if anyone with extensive experience with children has taken up a defense of the mother's actions or has condemned the decision of the Australian courts?

Any parents? Any developmental psychologists? Any school teachers or children's health professionals?

Advocating against the forced reunification with the father based on the histrionics of teen aged girls is a pretty weak position. I wonder if there's anything aside from the girls' public anguish to support your position?

 

[WildCat]

I don't see where all this BS about her being an unfit mother comes from when we don''t even know either the family or personal circumstances of these people.

We know the mother kidnapped the children and took them to a foreign country in an effort to avoid a proper legal custody hearing and deny the father the right to see his children, and then dragged out the inevitable for over 2 years and made a media circus of the whole affair. We know Australian courts also found the mothers behavior was atrocious. We know the mother hasn't made any sort of allegations of impropriety against the father.

That's enough for me. YMMV

 

[BenBurch]

I don't see where all this BS about her being an unfit mother comes from when we don''t even know either the family or personal circumstances of these people.

Scenario:
Two separate families have similar circumstances; the parents are separated and the father has custody of all the daughters. Recently, the oldest daughters in each family have finally confided to their mothers that her fathers been sexually abusing them for many years, and are now turning their interests towards the next oldest daughters.

In Family "A" both the mother and the oldest daughter are afraid that the pattern will continue with the younger daughter, so they formulate a and execute a plan to get all the daughters away from the father and to safety in another country.

In Family "B". the mother tells the daughter she is a liar, and she carries on in denial of what she can see has been happening right in front of her for many years.

Who's the unfit mother now, A or B?

Now I'm not saying that this is what is happening with THIS family, but it is one of a number of possible scenarios that fits the picture, especially with the two oldest daughters being the most upset about having to go back to their father.

Unfit because of kidnapping.

That's not hard to grasp, is it?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yes it is. That's because you are completely lacking in principle.

No, I just have different principles than you.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Now I'm not saying that this is what is happening with THIS family, but it is one of a number of possible scenarios that fits the picture, especially with the two oldest daughters being the most upset about having to go back to their father.

If you are just going to make **** up from whole cloth could you at least make it more entertaining. I'm sure if you PM TM he can set you up with a plot, props, or at least a setting, that adds something to the conversation. This mundane "daddy may be molester" crap is just not even worth reading without a bit more effort.

Thanks.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Funny how the posters accusing others of deciding based on emotional reaction to "crying teenagers" are themselves most frequently indulging in emotional appeal, charged language, and swearing. I wonder what skepticism says about that?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Funny how the posters accusing others of deciding based on emotional reaction to "crying teenagers" are themselves most frequently indulging in emotional appeal, charged language, and swearing. I wonder what skepticism says about that?

Swearing is *********** sign of satan. I learned that on the goddamn internet.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Swearing is *********** sign of satan. I learned that on the goddamn internet.

Yeah, but its wasted on a site with filters. All those asterisks just remind people of Lucky Charms cereal.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Unfit because of kidnapping.

That's not hard to grasp, is it?

You seriously think the mother in example A would be unfit? Odd.

I don't think many people think the mother was in the right (even if there was abuse it would be best to go through the courts first imo) but it seems like a case of trying to say two wrongs make a right. She abducted the kids (she probably told them it was a holiday and once they had been there for a while just dropped it on them that they are never going back) and the law tries to fix this by dragging them kicking and screaming to a plane. I think we can all see which one was more traumatising.

I agree they couldn't have stayed with her but surely there was a less barbaric way to handle this.

It feels like the kids were just property she took and the court ordered the police to return it to him. It seems dehumanizing.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I agree they couldn't have stayed with her but surely there was a less barbaric way to handle this.

The mother had a lot of influence over how traumatic this was. She could have easily made it less traumatic, but that would not have made a good movie. (See the grandmother's comments about who will play the dark haired daughter in the movie version.)

 

[lionking]

With so much use of the trigger word "kidnapping" in this thread, I assume the mother has been charged, or extradition sought?

No?

Stop using such an emotionally laden word then. This was a custody dispute. It happens hundreds of times a day. Labelling someone a "kidnapper" does nothing useful. You may as well call her a terrorist holding children hostage.

 

[joesixpack]

The mother had a lot of influence over how traumatic this was. She could have easily made it less traumatic, but that would not have made a good movie. (See the grandmother's comments about who will play the dark haired daughter in the movie version.)

I agree, the "barbaric" nature of the episode was entirely orchestrated by the mother.

Who is an unfit parent, by the way.

 

[lionking]

Who is an unfit parent, by the way.

At least use "in my opinion" if you want to taken at all seriously.

 

[joesixpack]

With so much use of the trigger word "kidnapping" in this thread, I assume the mother has been charged, or extradition sought?

No?

Stop using such an emotionally laden word then. This was a custody dispute. It happens hundreds of times a day. Labelling someone a "kidnapper" does nothing useful. You may as well call her a terrorist holding children hostage.

So calling it by it's proper name is somehow loading the conversation here? What does one call spiriting away one's children to deny them access to their other parent for no other reason than "just because"?

 

[Dr. Keith]

With so much use of the trigger word "kidnapping" in this thread, I assume the mother has been charged, or extradition sought?

No?

Stop using such an emotionally laden word then. This was a custody dispute. It happens hundreds of times a day. Labelling someone a "kidnapper" does nothing useful. You may as well call her a terrorist holding children hostage.

The child abusing coke-head father that wants to sell the kids into sex slavery agreed not to press charges. Something about the children losing some value on the open market if their mother was convicted, I'm sure.

 

[joesixpack]

At least use "in my opinion" if you want to taken at all seriously.

Perhaps you could show us where she demonstrated otherwise. Parents who undertake a campaign of alienation against another parent are unfit. Fact.