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The atheist who prayed

Azure, might I ask what prayer is for? If its purpose is to change the pray-er, then it really doesn't matter whether or not it happens right away. Seismosaurus will sooner or later be changed by his prayer and believe in God. But I doubt if anyone believes that will happen. Perhaps God does not want Seismosaurus to believe?

If the purpose is to change the external world, then this would imply that prayer has measurable, testable results. If this were true, then I suspect that everybody would be a devout Christian by now. In any case, the evidence indicates that there is no measurable difference in outcomes when people pray.

Or perhaps the purpose of prayer is only to change the mental state of praying believers? This makes it sound rather like a long run through the woods in the damp early morning of a hot summer's day. Nice stuff, but not exactly what one thinks of when one imagines the power of God.
 
Well even if there was a God he wouldn't like you anymore, because appearantly he makes a big deal out of people denying him.
 
ChristineR said:
Azure, might I ask what prayer is for? If its purpose is to change the pray-er, then it really doesn't matter whether or not it happens right away. Seismosaurus will sooner or later be changed by his prayer and believe in God. But I doubt if anyone believes that will happen. Perhaps God does not want Seismosaurus to believe?

If the purpose is to change the external world, then this would imply that prayer has measurable, testable results. If this were true, then I suspect that everybody would be a devout Christian by now. In any case, the evidence indicates that there is no measurable difference in outcomes when people pray.

Or perhaps the purpose of prayer is only to change the mental state of praying believers? This makes it sound rather like a long run through the woods in the damp early morning of a hot summer's day. Nice stuff, but not exactly what one thinks of when one imagines the power of God.
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Perhaps not. But many do. I went to church last Sunday. I do sometimes. I might even join this church. It's one of those liberal, you don't have to believe in any kind of miracles or supernatural aspects of the bible just the general message of "Love Everybody, Judge Nobody" and other chosen parts of the bible consistent with a liberal yet rational scientific view of the world.

Anyway, the preacher was going on about the purpose of prayer and to sum it up - the purpose of prayer is to change yourself. No, it's not a heaven shaking powerful god kind of power. It's just the power to change yourself. We all have it. Prayer is about directing it.

Seismosaurus said:
I've been going through a somewhat difficult time recently. A friend betrayed me, and a loved one chose to side with him against me - and then made me accept his betrayal and forgive him (though he had not apologised and had in fact made it clear that he wasn't particularly sorry). I've been alternately angry and depressed about this for a week or so.
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Seismosaurus, I'm sorry to hear about your recent troubles. Life takes us all to some very strange places. Some of them are heartrending. I know that things will improve for you soon if they haven't already. Remember that growth is often painful.

Regarding the power of prayer, I'd just like to say that I believe every word of your story. May the force be with you.
 
I confess that when I pray as an exercise of self-expression, I often feel a presence.

So what do I make of that?

I've examined that feeling and understand that I'm projecting it. Whatever I address as a person, feels to me to be a person.

There's a technique used by Evangelical Christians as a conversion tool.
The individual is urged to speak to Jesus and then asked if (s)he felt there was someone there listening to what (s)he said. I lot of people naturally report a sense of Jesus being there, especially if the only time they talk alould is when they are speaking to someone.

If you are habitually talking aloud to yourself, you might not have this experience.
 
Humm, I should start a thread but then I'd feel guilty about abandoning it.

I ran across some old 'church friends' on the internet. I had not heard from them in about 20 years and I waxed nostalgic.

They'd 'left the church' too, except they joined some fundy church. So we shared a couple nice 'hello-how-are-you' e-mails. I told them I left, was very happy without religion but was glad they found a new spiritual home etc.

So I get back from a couple weeks away from e-mail, and I have several new messages from them. All crappy religious spam. -sigh-
 
It is not so much the people talking to god that bothers me, it is what they hear in response.
 
Azure said:
Personally I don't think prayer is something that gets an answer overnight...or in an instant.
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So, it's kind of a wait and let the situation evolve thing. That's what us atheists have been telling you!
 
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When I was in the ER in February, I lay there, scared, alone, high on morphine, waiting for the results of my CT scan and hoping dearly for a spinal tap. And clothes. And food. And for my boyfriend to be there. The thought that there might be bleeding in my brain was terrifying. Even worse, midterms were approaching. It was the last thing I needed.

I stared at the fluorescent light above me and murmured, "I suppose it wouldn't hurt to pray." But I couldn't figure out who to pray to and even when I figured I'd do a general prayer, I just found that it didn't make a whit of sense.

So I made wishes instead. I wished for a spinal tap. I wished for my boyfriend. I wished for food. I wished for clothes. In that order of priority. And it amused me that here I was, a friendly agnostic, completely open to the possibility of a divine thing-um, and I can't ask it for help. I can't even pretend it's there to ask it for help. I had to go for the isomorphic wish.

Heh.

In the end, I did get all of those things in that order. The spinal tap was clear, my boyfriend got to be with me, he brought me some food, brought me some clothes, failed to bring me socks or shoes for when they discharged me. :D I forgot to wish for those.

Still, when his mom says she'll pray for me or my grandfather, I don't mind. Someone thinking enough of me to ask favors of a greater being is nice. She's thinking well of us. She wants us to get better.

As a side note, my roommates are pretty Christian and I popped in one time to grab something quickly and one said to the other, "I'll pray for you," and got right to it. I like her. :D
 
l0rca said:
I asked Satan if he could make a hot chick appear and make wild sex with me. I felt less silly, but was left unsatisfied.
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I bet you would have felt even sillier if that request had come true...
 
Thanks to those who have expressed sympathy. What happened wasn't even that big a thing, really - just a minor little thing, but it's something that I felt strongly about, and their "you're being petty, get the hell over it" attitude was what really grated, especially from the Lady... it just brought home to me that she doesn't care about me nearly as much as she claims to. Such is life.

Anyway, regarding prayer. I think it is always a bit unproductive to say "well prayer is supposed to work this way..." because if you do that you are endorsing one particular view of religion, and there's going to be some other sect that believes something different. Maybe my experience disproves the beliefs of group X, but group Y will just see it as irrelevant, or exactly what they expected.

As for Satan... it would be nice to think that you could sell your soul and actually get the woman of your dreams (hotness not a factor; gimme somebody who'll just love me always), but I guess he doesn't take such calls either or the world would be a very different place.
 
I've prayed to fake gods I've created in my mind before. It feels good to let out that horrible emotion to something that cares even if it is pretend. It's been a long while since I've done that though.
 
Solus said:
I've prayed to fake gods I've created in my mind before. It feels good to let out that horrible emotion to something that cares even if it is pretend. It's been a long while since I've done that though.
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Try praying to Joe Pesci. George Carlin claims it works well enough. ;)

DR
 
Seismosaurus said:
As for Satan... it would be nice to think that you could sell your soul and actually get the woman of your dreams (hotness not a factor; gimme somebody who'll just love me always), but I guess he doesn't take such calls either or the world would be a very different place.
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I can do that.

Fill these in and I'll be back for your soul next week:

Hair colour
Height
Weight
Ethnicity
Age

I'll take care of the rest.

Soul, mmmmmmmmmm.
 
Seismosaurus said:
So no answers. No proof that anything is there, no proof that it isn't. Like I said, nothing that will shake the world, just a little true story about an atheist who prayed.
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Excellent story, thanks.

I think you actually do prove something here.

"Seek and you will find", is a central tenet of christianity and there cannot be a person alive who doesn't know someone who "found" god. They sought and they found, so why are you different?

Simple.

In those people who "found god", it's quite clear to me that they lacked the self-assurance to deal with problems and needed to "feel" an outside agent at work to give the strength. They therefore con themselves into being "high on Jesus", while you are clearly not the type of namby-pamby wuss who has to feel the comforting hand of a sky-daddy on your shoulder.* You obviously have the inner strength to handle your life and your mind has let you hear the silence. Others aren't that lucky.

Well played.

*NB. I am specifically referring to "born-again" types here - those who have a startling revelation, much like Dustin is presently having, rather than those who doctrinally accept that their god exists. Many of that sort are not namby-pamby types at all.
 
I find the idea of praying as silly as casting spells or any other religious ritual. May as well twitch your nose or blink with your arms crossed.
 
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