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The atheist and morality

I agree with this completely, which is why I said earlier:

I less than three logic said:
… I promote the teaching of critical thinking, and the application of this important skill to everything, including one’s most cherished beliefs. Whether or not this leads to more atheists is irrelevant, as it would most definitely help with the ignorance and credulity that creates misconceptions and prejudice.
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The problem I see here is not that Atheist act immorally, or that rational people even think so. The problem I see is there are enough irrational people, religious and nonreligious, to still cause problems. Hence, it is through education, about how to think and not what to think, that we address this problem. I don’t see how acting morally will make Atheist have a better image, when we have been doing so all long.
 
I less than three logic said:
I agree with this completely, which is why I said earlier:


The problem I see here is not that Atheist act immorally, or that rational people even think so. The problem I see is there are enough irrational people, religious and nonreligious, to still cause problems. Hence, it is through education, about how to think and not what to think, that we address this problem. I don’t see how acting morally will make Atheist have a better image, when we have been doing so all long.
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Because rational people will see us for what we are. Educating people in skeptical thinking ignores morality since there not much science about it. Morality needs to be approached as a philosophy. Ignore it and religious fundies get a big say in what is viewed as moral and immoral while atheists have little input. But if atheists became educated about morality and worked at it they could change that. As far as irrational people go, there is nothing to do other than to show them to be irrational. Again that means being more moral than them. You won't show them to be irrational by making fun of them or calling them names and in fact you will only prove that you are less moral.
 
From here we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think rational, critical thinking skills are exactly what need to be promoted to alleviate this problem, not philosophical word games. Also, I do not see a need for Atheist to “work at” being more moral. We are just as moral as any other group, and some statistics suggest more moral than many groups. It was never our immoral behavior that created the stereotype; it was the intolerant and irrational beliefs of others. Teaching Atheist to be better at philosophical debates will not address the credulity that breeds intolerance, but teaching the irrational to think critically will.
 
I never said that wasn’t an issue. In fact, I already addressed this see:

I less than three logic said:
The problem I see is there are enough irrational people, religious and nonreligious, to still cause problems.
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I don’t see your need to be so one-sided on the issue, and attempt to word your response like the religious play no part with the problem. Yes there are intolerant Atheists. Perhaps that is all you have come in contact with, but I believe they make up a smaller proportion of the Atheist population than you seem to be suggesting. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with some of the more Atheistic organizations.

National Secular Society
International Humanist and Ethical Union
American Humanist Association
 
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If you think I am down on atheists on this board, there is a reason. I have been on the receiving end of intolerance on this board. I have seen others on the receiving end of intolerance also. Obviously it is pointless to ask fundies to be tolerant of atheists if atheists aren't going to be tolerant of fundies not to mention tolerant of an "atheist" with different ideas than their own. I will check out those sites thanks
 
I’m not sure if your familiar with statistics and opinion polls, but basically a site such as this forum would be a bad way to form an opinion about a whole population because this sample consists almost entirely of bias. For the most part only those with strong opinions will bother to contribute to an opinion poll, much like the forum here.

This would also be a bad place to form your concepts of people that believe in woo. We’ll only get those with strong opinions on woo that post here. For the most part an average person will have less, umm psychotic seems appropriate for some of them here ;), behavior towards woo.
 
I'm not tolerant of fundies because they kill people that don't believe as they do. If that makes me immoral, too bad.
 
I understand about statistics and posting to forums and know people have their tightly held atheistic beliefs and so attack anyone who calls them to question instead of challenging their logic. Ethically speaking we should police our own. This would mean we should speak out if we think someone is being treated unfairly or immorally or unethically on these boards. That is the type of discussion of morals that might be useful in learning about morality. Some do speak up but fear of getting involved in an unpleasant degrading time wasting discussion may prevent others from calling it like they see it.
 
Dogdoctor said:
Because rational people will see us for what we are. Educating people in skeptical thinking ignores morality since there not much science about it. .....
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No way! Skeptical thinking is needed to show the people who think, for example, that the Bush administration is acting on moral principles when it is a farce. And one needs to use skeptical thinking to show the anti-abortionists that you get less abortions when it is legal and people have access to birth control than you get by teaching abstinence only and making abortions illegal.

And we need to use critical thinking to fight fire with fire. The Evangelicals out there pushing their "wedge" took great care to learn and implement marketing science. We have a lot of catching up to do to be more effective communicators and teachers.
 
skeptigirl said:
No way! Skeptical thinking is needed to show the people who think, for example, that the Bush administration is acting on moral principles when it is a farce. And one needs to use skeptical thinking to show the anti-abortionists that you get less abortions when it is legal and people have access to birth control than you get by teaching abstinence only and making abortions illegal.

And we need to use critical thinking to fight fire with fire. The Evangelicals out there pushing their "wedge" took great care to learn and implement marketing science. We have a lot of catching up to do to be more effective communicators and teachers.
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Try to expand on those issues more. Is there science behind those ideas? I am skeptical so take one of those issues (abortion or George Bush) and prove it.
 
Dogdoctor said:
Try to expand on those issues more. Is there science behind those ideas? I am skeptical so take one of those issues (abortion or George Bush) and prove it.
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I'm not sure what you mean. You doubt the facts as I presented them or you want a rationale why the science of marketing would be helpful or you want a presentation on marketing or ????
 
skeptigirl said:
I'm not sure what you mean. You doubt the facts as I presented them or you want a rationale why the science of marketing would be helpful or you want a presentation on marketing or ????
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What facts did you present? Prove to me that the concept that the Bush Administration is acting on moral principles is a farce. Or prove to me that you get less abortions when it is legal and people have access to birth control than you get by teaching abstinence only and making abortions illegal.
 
Dogdoctor said:
What facts did you present? Prove to me that the concept that the Bush Administration is acting on moral principles is a farce. Or prove to me that you get less abortions when it is legal and people have access to birth control than you get by teaching abstinence only and making abortions illegal.
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Start a new thread re these and I will but otherwise that would be too off topic here and a hijack.


And, if I have time. Which I will try. But you sound like you aren't going to buy it no matter what so I'm not certain my time will be that well spent. Why don't you show your sincerity by providing evidence contrary to the above when you open the thread?
 
Me: I have a problem with the Iraq war
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Meaning: The Iraq war is the fault of American society, the product of which Bush is. If he is as corrupt as so many people suspect he is, he's little more than an apt reflection of American "values" right now.

Religious Zealot: The war is God's will
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Meaning: On a relative level, the zealot is not aware that he's referring to human cause and effect as God's will. On an absolute level, he's not aware that God is the logical conclusion of human evolution.

Me: I do not believe in god
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Meaning: The person, like the vast majority of people, has a lot of unresolvable doubt, or simply doesn't care.
 
I don't believe in Zeus, does that mean I have alot of unresolvable doubt or just don't care?
 
Sir Phil and another incomprehensible post. Are you happy in your own little world there, Phil?
 
Holy smokes, this is a busy discussion. I posted a while ago, asking if anyone had read the book entitled:

The Problem of the Soul

by Owen Flanagan.

He is a professor at Duke, it is a good book. Does anyone here know him, taken a class from him, or read this book? Otherwise I might be forced to try to summarize his thoughts on these matters.
 
Otherwise I might be forced to try to summarize his thoughts on these matters.
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You should do so, because simply referring to him doesn't really do much for the discussion.
 
When I did jury service recently i affirmed, I am an aethiast, and in one case several withnesses swore to thier god they would tell the truth when they were clearly lying.
 
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