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The Alex Salmond trial

Rolfe

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I'm just going to leave this here, although maybe it really does belong in the Conspiracy Theories subforum. (Craig Murray is not someone I like, but there seems no doubt that he is bang on the money with this. Multiple people have confirmed most of it, he is just the one who has put it all in one place.)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-accused-and-the-accusers/

A 22 person team from Police Scotland worked for over a year identifying and interviewing almost 400 hoped-for complainants and witnesses against Alex Salmond. This resulted in nil charges and nil witnesses. Nil. The accusations in court were all fabricated and presented on a government platter to the police by a two prong process. The first prong was the civil service witch hunt presided over by Leslie Evans and already condemned by Scotland’s highest civil court as “unlawful, unfair and tainted by apparent bias”. The second prong was the internal SNP process orchestrated by a group at the very top in SNP HQ and the First Minister’s Private Office. A key figure in the latter was directly accused in court by Alex Salmond himself of having encouraged a significant number of the accusers to fabricate incidents.

The only accusations Police Scotland could take forward were given to them by this process. Their long and expensive trawl outside the tiny closed group of accusers revealed nothing. Let me say that again. Police Scotland’s long and expensive trawl outside the tiny closed group of accusers revealed nothing at all. [....]

What the police did get was eye witness evidence that several of the allegations they had been handed by the closed group were fabricated. Two eye witnesses, for example, appeared in court who had been within six feet of the alleged buttock grab during a Stirling Castle photocall. Both had been watching the photo being taken. Both testified nothing had happened. The police had that evidence. But they ignored it. [....]

They discovered the actual Edinburgh airport “incident” was that Alex Salmond had made a rather excruciating pun about “killer heels” when the footwear of a female member of staff had set off the security scanner gate. This had been reported as a sexist comment in the context of a much wider dispute about staff conditions. That is it. “Killer heels”. A joke. [....]


I can say that I know the identities of five of the complainants, although I can't of course publish them here. I can say that when the identities are known, as they inevitably will be, there will be enormous political fall-out.

I'm just curious to see what people here will say about all this.
 
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OK I will rise to the bait. AS is clearly a creep. As first minister he should know better. If the FM makes approaches to you as a member of the SNP or civil service this is a huge power issue. This is like sixth formers and teachers, yes I may be over the age of consent but it is not healthy to be in a relationship with your teacher. AS should never have been making approaches to people he had a power relationship with. The problem is there is no option to raise a complaint with HR about the FM's behaviour. Who is going to discipline or sack him?

I think he is guilty. Whether he is a criminal I am ambivalent about. But he is guilty of sexual harassment of women he was in a position of power over.
 
I don't really know enough about Scottish politics to have an opinion on the political conspiracy angle. From what I saw reported about the trial itself, I thought the case sounded suspect. In particular, I remember being puzzled by the charge (mentioned in the link) where a witness gave evidence that the accuser wasn't even present when the incident was supposed to have happened.
 
Yes. The allegations were originally not meant to go as far as a court, they were supposed to be kept in reserve and brought out to threaten Salmond with if he applied to become a parliamentary candidate again. They could have done a better job.

For a start, what woman who believes a man has tried to rape her goes to the HQ of the political party and says, here, if you want to keep him out of parliament here's your ammunition. Rather than go to the police?

Planigale's post is defamatory of course. I think he's OK though, Alex Salmond has far more people higher up the queue for being taken to court than an anonymous poster on an obscure internet forum.
 
I saw something about this recently when I was reading the BBC's coverage of the pandemic. I'd read a while back that Salmond was going to be tried, but I didn't think it would be that big of a deal, as he was retired from politics. Clearly I was in error. I will admit that I assumed he was probably guilty, which seems also to have been in error.

It is news to me that supposedly the threat of the airing of these allegations was to be used to keep him from reentering politics; if that's true it explains a great deal about the entire affair, and the people responsible should be held accountable for their despicable behavior.
 
Just for the record, although the words "sex pest" were recorded by the person who was tailing Gordon Jackson with high quality concealed recording equipment, the context wasn't, and Jackson denies saying or thinking that Salmond is or was a sex pest. Jackson needs the book thrown at him for discussing the case on public transport though.
 
The Jackson train incident gives a rather revealing insite into criminal trials in the accusatorial system that we have. The aim is to win, not to establish the truth of what happened.
 
For what it is worth, I am on record outside of this forum as stating that this was an orchestrated stitch up from the outset.

I can't stand the man or his politics BTW.
 
I'm just going to leave this here, although maybe it really does belong in the Conspiracy Theories subforum. (Craig Murray is not someone I like, but there seems no doubt that he is bang on the money with this. Multiple people have confirmed most of it, he is just the one who has put it all in one place.)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-accused-and-the-accusers/




I can say that I know the identities of five of the complainants, although I can't of course publish them here. I can say that when the identities are known, as they inevitably will be, there will be enormous political fall-out.

I'm just curious to see what people here will say about all this.

I read the link. With the disadvantage of knowing little to nothing about Scotland's politics or court system, I was a bit confused, but interested. Also, somewhat shocking to me as I read on.

Why? His foes are so energized by their powerful hate, their desire to hurt, their determination to ruin. Perhaps they didn't like his politics, our perhaps they just didn't like him. But really, to take it to this level just doesn't make sense to me.

The Justice system. Only knowing the US fairly well, and participating in the courts here for several years, reading some about Scotland's system through this case was confusing and a bit shocking. Again - Really? They allow that? Or is this not typical? Later I need to look more things up about this strange case.
 
Craig Murray, I know I know but he is quite clearly on the money in this, has written another long piece which takes the form of a forensic demolition of an article written by a journalist called Dani Garavelli. Garavelli's article consists of relaying in fawning terms what a number of the alphabet women now want to say about the case (while bemoaning the apparent fact that they have "no voice") and the prosecution case. If one only read that article one might easily wonder if the jury had taken leave of its collective senses.

The title of the article is I have a plan so that we can remain anonymous but have maximum effect, which is part of a text sent by woman H, one of those at the absolute centre of the orchestrated stitch-up, to a number of the others. (The main orchestrator of all this was in fact woman A, but woman H was also in it up to her neck. When the identities of these two are revealed a lot of people are going to be very surprised. I nearly fell off my chair when I discovered who woman H is.) This, perhaps more than the other message reading "we have lost this battle but we will win the war" sent round by Leslie Evans within minutes of the judgement in Salmond's favour in the Court of Session, is the strongest evidence of there being a conspiracy among the women to have come out in court (a lot of the evidence of collusion and conspiracy was ruled inadmissible at the start).

You might think this was news. Someone pointed out that if you google that text string, Murray's article is the only one that comes up. He says that he saw all the mainstream newspaper and TV journalists close their notebooks and stop taking notes when the defence witnesses came into the witness box. I don't know about that, but I do know that while the prosecution case was reported in salacious detail, with every allegation about Salmond's behaviour quoted with apparent relish on the front pages, when it came to the defence evidence the journalists somehow managed to repeat their reporting of the prosecution evidence. If you were just reading the newspapers or watching the TV you would have learned almost nothing of it, and certainly not that woman H had been clearly shown to be a liar and the prosecution didn't even bother to cross-examine the defence witnesses who gave that evidence. Not even the time-honoured "I put it to you Mrs Barber that there were indeed four people at that dinner", which lawyers say is quite telling.

Then of course there are the other lies such as several of the women testifying to having complained about Salmond's behaviour at the time to their line manager, but the line manager in question, Karen Watt, categorically saying that didn't happen.

These "silenced, voiceless" women had their evidence heard in a court of law. Since then they have had two more bites at the cherry, one in the form of an "open letter" put out by Rape Crisis Scotland which included the breathtaking lie that the nine women have never communicated with each other about their alleged experiences, and that even now none of them knows the identity of the others. Despite them having (anonymously) co-signed an open letter. Not to mention the WhatsApp group that they used to co-ordinate their lies.

At the same time Alex Salmond has not said a word in public, and neither have the seven or so female witnesses for the defence who all appeared under their own names in court with no attempt to hide behind alphabet soup. Apparently it's OK to insinuate that they're liars though.

Whatever you think of Alex Salmond he is not a sex pest. He's a tactile sort of person and he himself said he wished he had been more conscious of other people's personal space, but apart from the alphabet women, who all know each other and are all part of the same inner ring of Scottish politics, everyone will tell you that these touches are in no way sexual. The police chased another 400 women to try to find one single complaint from someone who was not part of that clique of harpies, and failed. Bear in mind this is a man who was an MP at Westminster from 1987 to 2001, and that the Security Services hated his guts. If there had been anything then that wasn't squeaky-clean, they would have been all over it. One woman whom someone had observed being kissed on the cheek by Salmond when they met in a theatre foyer was apparently approached and asked if she wanted to press a sexual assault charge on the basis of that. That's the depth of the barrel-scraping that went on.

So, as Bluesjnr has helpfully pointed out, never mind what you think of Salmond or his politics, this is an amazing story, a genuine conspiracy theory that is turning out to be absolutely true, but all the press can do is publish repeated borderline-defamatory stories about "Salmond sleaze". As someone on twitter keeps saying, when is Alex Salmond's trial expected to finish?
 
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I read the link. With the disadvantage of knowing little to nothing about Scotland's politics or court system, I was a bit confused, but interested. Also, somewhat shocking to me as I read on.

Why? His foes are so energized by their powerful hate, their desire to hurt, their determination to ruin. Perhaps they didn't like his politics, our perhaps they just didn't like him. But really, to take it to this level just doesn't make sense to me.

The Justice system. Only knowing the US fairly well, and participating in the courts here for several years, reading some about Scotland's system through this case was confusing and a bit shocking. Again - Really? They allow that? Or is this not typical? Later I need to look more things up about this strange case.


Bear in mind that Salmond's foes are at the very heart of the present Scottish government, which is the party that he himself resigned from when these allegations were first made. You're right about the powerful hate and the desire to hurt. These women conspired to have the man who almost single-handedly took the party from the sidelines to the dominant force in Scottish politics convicted of sexual crimes they simply made up. They expected him to be jailed for perhaps 7 to 10 years. He's 65 years old. The prison warders in Saughton jail where the old sex offenders, many ghastly people who committed horrific crimes, are locked up, were gleefully talking about getting a cell ready for him.

Nobody could have foreseen this happening at the start of a pandemic of a respiratory virus which is particularly lethal to the over 60s and those with underlying health conditions. Salmond, in addition to being 65, has quite severe asthma and a history of pneumonia. Although I suppose they were hardly going to let a pandemic prick their consciences at that point.

The role of the police and the Crown Prosecution and Procurator Fiscal Service in this has to be examined. Why was the case taken to court in the first place when there was clear evidence most of the complainants were lying? Why were the police so keen to bolster the case that they chased up 400 other women to try to find some others prepared to join the complainants? Why did they go ahead when none of the 400 obliged?

The queen bee hidden in the middle of all this is Nicola Sturgeon. The most charitable explanation is that she feared Salmond making a political come-back in his mid-sixties and toppling her from the throne he himself had put her on. Personally I find framing an innocent man for attempted rape to be a bit over the top as a remedy for that.
 
First of all one has to be clear that Sturgeon is not one of the alphabet ladies. She was to be called as a defence witness on a particular point of fact as to whether someone was at a particular meeting or not, but she asked to be excused on account of the corinavirus crisis and the defence agreed not to call her.

Behind the scenes it is a different matter. The alphabet ladies are all very close cronies of hers, as is Leslie Evans the civil servant who was instrumental in getting the whole thing organised and off the ground. Leslie Evans's role in the handling of the complaints against Salmond was heavily criticised by the Court of Session. Sturgeon could and should have got rid of her right then, simply by stating that she had no confidence in her. Not only did she not do that, she extended Evans's contract for another two years, something she was under no obligation to do. It's a strange thing to see, a fiercely unionist civil servant, an appointee of Westminster who spends the middle of each week in London meeting other Permanent Secretaries, and a close coterie of women who are all supposed to be working for Scottish independence, all plotting together on this.

So given the identity of (some of) the alphabet ladies, it is impossible to imagine that Sturgeon was anything other than in this up to her neck. She's good at putting someone else up as the public face of something she wants to do that is unpopular, but she's the one pulling the strings. She has so far retained plausible deniability in the eyes of many in the Yes movement but I question how long that can go on for. There is no doubt that Nicola Sturgeon actively plotted and encouraged others to plot to have Alex Salmond, her friend and mentor, jailed on trumped up sexual assault charges.

There is also the point that it is said that it is common knowledge that Sturgeon is now living apart from her husband Peter Murrell (the SNP's chief executive) and is shacked up with the female French diplomat who was involved in the leak scandal at the time of the 2017 (I think) election. Murrell is said by those who know him well to be "as camp as a row of tents" and the marriage said to be one of convenience so that he and Sturgeon could take over the party together. Nobody knows if Sturgeon is a lesbian or what, as she's actually quite a cold personality. How the alleged separation squares with the purpose of the marriage being to take over the SNP I'm not quite sure.

There is going to be some sort of inquiry into this. Sturgeon lied to the Scottish parliament about when she became aware of what was going on. It seems inconceivable that she can survive long past the time when the pandemic is under control, however long that takes. However Murray's article contains hints that the opposition unionist parties may try to block that inquiry to save Sturgeon's skin. Well well.

What was the motivation behind all this? The general assumption is that Sturgeon did it out of personal ambition, to prevent Salmond from making a come-back into politics and trying to undo the damage she has done to the independence cause over the past five years by her timidity and inaction. On the other hand I look at this mess, in the context that we all know that MI5 has had the SNP thoroughly infiltrated for many decades, and wonder if all the wildest dreams of the MI5 agents just came true without any of them being involved or having had any hand in it.
 
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...
The role of the police and the Crown Prosecution and Procurator Fiscal Service in this has to be examined. Why was the case taken to court in the first place when there was clear evidence most of the complainants were lying? Why were the police so keen to bolster the case that they chased up 400 other women to try to find some others prepared to join the complainants? Why did they go ahead when none of the 400 obliged?

....

A high profile case aids promotion in the police and I presume COPFS as well. All that is needed is an apparently thorough* enquiry and a detection. If there is a conviction that is an added bonus. No conviction is easily excused away, especially in the drive to believe the victim, no matter what, culture of prosecutions. Kier Starmer was part of that.

Exculpatory evidence that suggests complainers are lying is often ignored, despite the Lord Advocates Guidelines here;

https://www.copfs.gov.uk/images/Doc...osure of Evidence in Criminal Proceedings.pdf

It is part of the culture of investigations that the senior officer leading the investigation sets the narrative and then moulds the evidence to fit, as opposed to what should happen, which is to just follow the evidence. The policy of believe the victim, even if they are apparently lying, is partly down to moulding the evidence to fit and partly police under pressure from certain politicians and women's groups to improve conviction rates.

*A high profile case will get lots of resources thrown at it. All reports of sex crime result in a trawl for other potential victims, as Moorov is an important part of getting corroborative evidence and sufficiency to charge and prove a case. A low profile case might have 4 to 40 other potential victims interviewed. This is the most high profile sex crime allegation in Scotland for years. So it was 400 interviews.
 
So you think it might simply be SOP of set the dogs on, then the dogs do what they always do? Pretty scary for all of us, but I certainly couldn't exclude it.
 
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The Jackson train incident gives a rather revealing insite into criminal trials in the accusatorial system that we have. The aim is to win, not to establish the truth of what happened.


I was going to say, about this, no :rule10: Sherlock!

It is the defence advocate's job to win. Full stop. He is ethically obliged to insist his client pleads guilty if the client confesses guilt, and to withdraw from the case if the client won't do that, but short of that it is his job to present his client's case to the best of his ability - even if he privately suspects said client is as guilty as hell.

Jackson is a bit of a rough diamond. But the discussion was I think pretty standard, albeit conducted in a place he most certainly should not have been conducting it. Discussion of tactics, how to influence the jury, and in this case an added opinion that his client was not in fact guilty of the offences he was charged with.

He wasn't under any obligation to like Salmond, and it's pretty common knowledge that he doesn't. He used to be a Labour MP for pity's sake. Labour MPs to a man and a woman hate the SNP like poison, and for a couple of decades Salmond was the SNP.
 
So you think it might simply be SOP of set the dogs on, then the dogs do what they always do? Pretty scary for all of us, but I certainly couldn't exclude it.

The dogs were just doing what they normally do.
 
...

Jackson is a bit of a rough diamond. But the discussion was I think pretty standard, albeit conducted in a place he most certainly should not have been conducting it. Discussion of tactics, how to influence the jury, and in this case an added opinion that his client was not in fact guilty of the offences he was charged with.

...

He said of Salmond's actions "It's no right, but it's no war crimes..." and he went on to accept the behaviour was wrong, but it did not amount to a sexual criminal act.

The police are under a lot of pressure to stop sexual behaviour that has in the past been accepted/tolerated and often forced on others, usually females who are then expected to accept and tolerate it. It is older powerful men who have mostly written the laws and apply them, so to what extent is the law still stacked in their favour and women are expected to put up with their actions?
 

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