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The "28 pages" thread

That's very kind of you, thanks. The odd thing is, Oystein seems to agree with me in his post 377 and he's not lazy, is he? Wonder what his problem is...

Oh, of course I am lazy. I haven't read everything jimd wrote in the past 10 years ;)

Essentially, beachnut, PBS and others are lazy when they Poison the Well in lieu of addressing the claims, arguments and evidence presented by jimd. None of which is dependent on him being, or not being, an anti-semite.

I try to call out anti-semites when appropriate. This doesn't stop me from debating rationally with anti-semites issues essentially unrelated do Jewism or Israel.
 
I try to call out anti-semites when appropriate. This doesn't stop me from debating rationally with anti-semites issues essentially unrelated do Jewism or Israel.
I agree separate issues should be treated separately, and as I say I make no claim about what he does or does not think, but my reasoning is along the lines of, if he was anti-semitic and/or thought 'Israel did (that's DID) 911', and has been posting regularly on the subject for over a decade then there would be more evidence than one 10 year old quoted post (which he denies writing), with no context, and which even out of context needs quite a bit of spinning to make it sound anti-semitic (i.e, 'working for Israel = all Jewish people' and 'waking up to' means 'hate') and absolutely cannot be made to mean 'Israel did 911', no matter how you spin it.
 
That's very kind of you, thanks. The odd thing is, Oystein seems to agree with me in his post 377 and he's not lazy, is he? Wonder what his problem is...

Well that would be Oystein's problem, but what's more telling is the fact you dodged the questions I asked you.

You seem to have a bad habit of doing that. Let me guess more laziness?
 
Well that would be Oystein's problem,
Yes, I didn't think you'd bother yourself to tackle Oystein as you can't just throw the words 'lazy' or 'laziness' back at him over and over again as a substitute for a proper argument. This is the kind of thing an eleven year old does.

but what's more telling is the fact you dodged the questions I asked you.
I tried to address them in my post 382.

You seem to have a bad habit of doing that. Let me guess more laziness?
Laziness, irritation at constant goalpost moving, boredom.
 
Yes, I didn't think you'd bother yourself to tackle Oystein as you can't just throw the words 'lazy' or 'laziness' back at him over and over again as a substitute for a proper argument. This is the kind of thing an eleven year old does.

Nothing to tackle and still his problem. You referring to someone posting as an 11 year old is laughable though considering your history here.

I tried to address them in my post 382.

And failed miserably.


Laziness, irritation at constant goalpost moving, boredom.

Yet here you are still typing out nonsensical replies.
 
I agree that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but we invaded Iraq over WMD lies concocted by Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi (Curveball).
While this is technically true, Cheney and Bush both gave speechs in which they first spoke of having been attacked on 9/11/01 then with little to no pause they move into speaking about the danger of the Hussein regime, it's WMD and then to not wanting a "mushroom cloud" over the USA. They also tried to pin some cooperative connection between al-Qada and the Iraqi regime.
They may NEVER have outright said that Iraq was involved in 9/11/01 but heavily left that impression in the minds of the general populace. They played on the fear developed by 9/11/01 to garner a war with Iraq.


Defector admits to WMD lies that triggered Iraq war

The defector who convinced the White House that Iraq had a secret biological weapons programme has admitted for the first time that he lied about his story, then watched in shock as it was used to justify the war. it is amazing there are those who actually believe that a missile hit the Pentagon.
Sorry, how does that last bit tie in with the first?

I also wanted to add that Saudi Arabia had called upon the release of the 28 pages released as well.

.

Which certainly does imply that official higher levels of that kingdom believed there was nothing in the report they needed hidden.

From wiki:(hilites mine)
the Bush Administration's claims about the danger Iraq posed escalated significantly:

July 23, 2002: The Downing Street Memo was written, in which British intelligence said "C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."
August, 2002: White House Iraq Group formed.

September 5, 2002: In a WHIG meeting, chief Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson proposes the use of a "smoking gun/mushroom cloud" metaphor to sell the American public on the supposed nuclear dangers posed by Saddam Hussein. According to Newsweek columnist Michael Isikoff, "The original plan had been to place it in an upcoming presidential speech, but WHIG members fancied it so much that when the Times reporters contacted the White House to talk about their upcoming piece [about aluminum tubes], one of them leaked Gerson's phrase — and the administration would soon make maximum use of it." (Hubris, p. 35.)[2]

September 6, 2002: In an interview with the New York Times, Andrew Card did not mention the WHIG specifically but hinted at its mission: "From a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August." On September 17, 2002, Matt Miller stated on NPR that the above quote from Andrew Card was in response to the question: "... why the administration waited until after Labor Day to try to sell the American people on military action against Iraq" [3]

September 7, 2002: Judith Miller of The New York Times reports Bush administration officials said "In the last 14 months, Iraq has sought to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium."[4] In fact, many government officials had concluded the tubes were unsuitable for uranium refinement.

September 7–8, 2002: President Bush and nearly all his top advisers blanketed the airwaves, talking about the dangers posed by Iraq.[5]
On NBC's "Meet the Press," Vice President Richard Cheney cited the New York Times article, and accused Saddam of moving aggressively to develop nuclear weapons over the past fourteen months to add to his stockpile of chemical and biological arms.
On CNN, Condi Rice acknowledged that "there will always be some uncertainty" in determining how close Iraq may be to obtaining a nuclear weapon but said, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."On CBS, President Bush said U.N. weapons inspectors, before they were denied access to Iraq in 1998, concluded that Saddam was "six months away from developing a weapon." He also cited satellite photos released by a U.N. agency Friday that show unexplained construction at Iraq sites that weapons inspectors once visited to search for evidence Saddam was trying to develop nuclear arms. "I don't know what more evidence we need," Bush said.

October 14, 2002: President Bush says of Saddam "This is a man that we know has had connections with al Qaeda. This is a man who, in my judgment, would like to use al Qaeda as a forward army." [6]

January 21, 2003: Bush says of Saddam "He has weapons of mass destruction -- the world's deadliest weapons -- which pose a direct threat to the United States, our citizens and our friends and allies." [7]

February 5, 2003: Colin Powell addresses the United Nations, asserting that there was "no doubt in my mind" that Saddam was working to obtain key components to produce nuclear weapons.

March 19, 2003: The U.S. invades Iraq.
 
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... beachnut, PBS and others are lazy ...
Why are you always right? What about PrisonPlanet? It seems to influence a lot of European really dumb guys, why is Alex Jones a prophet for dumb people in Europe, and a bunch more here in the USA...

We all need to demand education reform in the USA... we need ...

I am so lazy, I have all of these, and more... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=all in one remotes

Stop being right, it makes me more lazy. I was surprised to find jimd was a PrisonPlanet mod... yet, it explains the massive SPAM of BS on how bad we are... Alex Jones, ... I have to get un-lazy, install the clutch in the 914. etc, etc, etc,

Do you want to see my copied slides? Would you like some ...

On topic, what has changed with the 28 pages? Who paid the way for 19 nuts on 9/11 and knew the outcome? Not the 28 pages
 
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Why are you always right? What about PrisonPlanet? It seems to influence a lot of European really dumb guys, why is Alex Jones a prophet for dumb people in Europe, and a bunch more here in the USA...

We all need to demand education reform in the USA... we need ...

I am so lazy, I have all of these, and more... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=all in one remotes

Stop being right, it makes me more lazy. I was surprised to find jimd was a PrisonPlanet mod... yet, it explains the massive SPAM of BS on how bad we are... Alex Jones, ... I have to get un-lazy, install the clutch in the 914. etc, etc, etc,

Do you want to see my copied slides? Would you like some ...

LOL I completely missed that, maybe I'm getting lazy too! :blush:
 
Some parts of the thread are quite informative so why turn it into just another mud-slinging ISF/JREF witch-hunt? Why not look at the actual information presented instead of going into the usual gang mentality?
thumbup.gif
thumbup.gif
 
LOL I completely missed that, maybe I'm getting lazy too! :blush:
The paranoid, are paranoid, as seen.

The 28 pages were a BS McGuffin to fuel the paranoia of the 9/11 truth followers and the book buyers interest.

Ironically, the ones wanting the 28 pages, knew what was in them anyway... so they claim. Which means...

The 28 pages are the last stand for 9/11 truth followers who CD/inside-job/etc, failed for them.

Until the next last stand... CD failed, the inside job failed, now what

Would be neat if the complainers would post some actual information to support the failed claims, and BS

MO, "show me"
 
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Would be neat if the complainers would post some actual information to support the failed claims, and BS

Yes it would, but good luck with that my friend.

Bush was with the hijackers and Obama is keeping it all a secret, almost as dumb as the thermite claims.

Be careful though, someone is waking up to people taking over the Pentagon for Israel and we could be in danger. I wonder who those people are and if they assisted Bush with the hijackers. ;)

Maybe Obama will reveal the big secret for us. :)
 
Why are you always right?
Leading question
What about PrisonPlanet?
The tired old "What about" ploy so popular wuth truthers about to start a Gish gallop
It seems ...
Seems. Ok. Means you speculate
to influence a lot of European really dumb guys,
Derail
why is Alex Jones a prophet for dumb people in Europe,
Still derail
and a bunch more here in the USA...

We all need to demand education reform in the USA... we need ...
More derail
I am so lazy, I have all of these, and more... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=all in one remotes

Stop being right, it makes me more lazy.
What's in that link? I am not gonna click if you can't use the content in an argument.
I was surprised to find jimd was a PrisonPlanet mod... yet, it explains the massive SPAM of BS on how bad we are... Alex Jones, ...
Poisoning the Well
I have to get un-lazy, install the clutch in the 914. etc, etc, etc,

Do you want to see my copied slides? Would you like some ...
Off-topic
On topic, what has changed with the 28 pages? Who paid the way for 19 nuts on 9/11 and knew the outcome? Not the 28 pages
Finally.
The 28 pages suggest that the involvement of Saudi officials (starting with the Saudi ambassador to the USA) with individuals and groups who supported AQ was too direct to look away. Saudi Arabia - that would include members of its administration and Princes close to the throne - paid part of the way for 19 nuts on 9/11. Did they know the outcome? Well, who cares? They paid for the crime of the century, and Bush and friends covered up for them and shuffled them out of the country very quickly, before even the air travel ban was lifted. Were they investigated in a transparent process, at least one on which Congress had a satisfied eye on? I don't think so.

This is not to say that all of jimd's (Jon Gold's...) insinuations and accusations are true. I don't know.
But is seems true that no one took political responsibility for the fact that their allies, personal liaisons, friends enabled and supported OBL.

I am not an American citicen, so I cannot very well demand this sort of political consequences. But a Middle East poisoned and raped by Saudi money cum murderous intelligence, AND the Kingdom being covered and supported by US governments, has HUGE repercussions even on Germany today. I have a hard time understanding that you citizens are so satisfied with not knowing better what the KSA did and knew,
 
I am not an American citicen, so I cannot very well demand this sort of political consequences. But a Middle East poisoned and raped by Saudi money cum murderous intelligence, AND the Kingdom being covered and supported by US governments, has HUGE repercussions even on Germany today. I have a hard time understanding that you citizens are so satisfied with not knowing better what the KSA did and knew,

clap.gif
clap.gif
 
The 28 pages suggest that the involvement of Saudi officials (starting with the Saudi ambassador to the USA) with individuals and groups who supported AQ was too direct to look away. Saudi Arabia - that would include members of its administration and Princes close to the throne - paid part of the way for 19 nuts on 9/11. Did they know the outcome? Well, who cares? They paid for the crime of the century, and Bush and friends covered up for them and shuffled them out of the country very quickly, before even the air travel ban was lifted. Were they investigated in a transparent process, at least one on which Congress had a satisfied eye on? I don't think so.


Evidence for the highlighted?

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp
 

Thanks for the debunking.
Openly acknowledged.

I am not the person to turn to here. jimd3100 is, he is obviously far better informed about these matters than I am.

I don't see you addressing his (or paloalto's or...) posts and claims as pertinently as mine. I wish you were - that is my point here: Address the actual arguments, not the arguers.
 
Thanks for the debunking.
Openly acknowledged.

I am not the person to turn to here. jimd3100 is, he is obviously far better informed about these matters than I am.

I don't see you addressing his (or paloalto's or...) posts and claims as pertinently as mine. I wish you were - that is my point here: Address the actual arguments, not the arguers.


I'm interested in historical facts, so I have on the one hand no opposition to them being presented, and on the other hand a strong dislike for the presentation of false ones (especially when presented in the manner of well-established background facts, which is how long-debunked rumors like the Saudi escape flight myth become so persistent).

I have far less interest in political narratives and spin, unless they are either destructive or useful. Paloalto's narrative, however accurate the historical facts he builds them around, is about how the Bush administration must have known about the 9/11 attacks in advance; in other words, LIHOP conspiracy, which is part of the same old truther nonsense, and hence neither destructive nor useful.

Jimd's political narrative is more neutral: people engaged in geopolitics make compromises and end up with strange bedfellows. This is not surprising; the Saudi's habit of playing both sides of the pro-West anti-West fence is well known, and of course governments on both sides play along. The details are interesting, but they don't tell a story that's either potentially useful or potentially destructive. That is in large part due to the Truth Movement's years-long effort to render their own general topic, hidden conspiracies related to 9/11, a uninhabitable wasteland littered with the burning husks of absurd false claims.

Oystein's narrative e.g. "They paid for the crime of the century…" demonstrates the transition from jimd's historical digging to political spin, with the assistance of demonstrable untruths that happened to fit in. You literally applauded that; possibly you would wish me to also "address" jimd's claims by engaging in the same. Perhaps taking the opposite spin, for maximum entertainment value. "You can't prove nothin' and America hell yeah!"

Letting the narrative filter the facts, turning history into performance art where everything is subservient to appearances and genre tropes, is not in my nature to perpetrate or tolerate no matter which "side" of whatever issue is doing it. It's what Truthers did, but they're not the only ones, by a long shot. The only reason for claiming planes were holograms is that it fits the style of a high-tech ninja conspiracy thriller. (Have you taken the red pill?) The only reason for claiming secret flights whisked high-ranking Saudis away through closed airspace is that it fits the style of a smoked-filled-room political scandal potboiler.

I appreciate that you've accepted the correction, but I note that that doesn't seem to have affected your enthusiasm for Oystein's story.

For my part, I do not applaud.

If you want my political narrative, that I see as most likely based on the facts I have, I'll summarize it briefly but any discussion of it should adjourn to a different subforum. America is a decadent and crumbling empire, currently in the phase (seen in many past decadent crumbling empires in history) in which it's controlled by the oligarchy. Its collapse began before I was born and will continue for a century or more after I'm gone. (People confuse collapse with apocalypse, which is silly.) The collapse is based on thermodynamics; it can be slowed or hastened but not arrested or reversed. And other world powers, including China and Russia and Europe, are on or heading for similar slopes with different timing but equal inevitability. There are seven billion people in the world, and we're keeping most of them alive by desperately chewing through non-renewable resources while neglecting the social and material infrastructure that makes it possible to do that. That means there's not enough of those resources to keep the current population alive for their currently expected lifespans, nor to build alternative systems with anywhere near the same capacities. It follows that the bloodbaths of the 21st century will make those of the 20th look like the period of relative peace and prosperity that it actually was.

I hope I'm wrong. But since I don't think I am, you might be able to see that the revelation that certain U.S. Repulicocrats were being strange bedfellows with certain Saudi Shiunnis on and around 9/11, or that U.S. policies have either accidentally or by design helped keep the middle east in misery for generations, is not particularly shocking nor politically useful. And a single event fifteen years ago in which fewer people died than died that same day (and every day) from cigarette smoking, was a milestone along that trajectory, not the pivotal historical turning point that such examination implies it should be. With or without embellishment by creative Truther myths, it's not going to inspire any calls for reform or any uprisings. Americans, given the Truth Movement's scorched earth and the passage of fifteen years, are more riled by Hillary's emails. Can't fix it by yelling how wrong it is.

History's actually a lot more interesting when every detail that comes to light isn't being co-opted (or rejected) as being the "smoking gun" (or being obvious disinfo) for (or against) someone's pet theory or narrative. Even my own.
 
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Myriad,

"Jimd's political narrative is more neutral" - yes. A vocal part of this forum hasn't noticed. I am glad you did.
I jimd a "LIHOP" proponent? I am not sure - more the LIHOOI type, and thus pretty much mainstream here - many just haven't noticed because they read with the prejudices switched on.

"I appreciate that you've accepted the correction, but I note that that doesn't seem to have affected your enthusiasm for Oystein's story."
My enthusiam for Oystein's story?? :D Please present your evidence for such "enthusiasm" :p

I agree, in coarse outline, with your grand view of current history and your ranking of 9/11 and surrounding events as a mere milestone. This seems to be somewhat in opposition with jimd's view of the world. Although, once again, I am not sure. It would be nice if someone took the time to show this. Instead, most active posters erect strawmen, gallop the Gish, or attack the arguer.
That's all I am saying.
 
Yes to both and hence my own perspective at the less global politics - more micro to 9/11 debate level:

1) The overall global; politics setting is IMO vastly more complicated than forum discussions recognise, can address or can even try to address. And way beyond the comprehension of most. Personally it is well outside my comfort zone - I can comprehend what both of you write but have not sufficient knowledge or reasoning experience to critique beyond "that looks reasonable to me". (I can interpet and see value i jimd's material. Paloalto's "wall of text" style with no "Excutive Summary" is usually impenetrable to me. (Or near enough impenetrable as to discourage me exerting the effort.)

2) Even at the 9/11 micro level the debate of MIHOP/LIHOP has been dominated by the false presumption of a single structured entity - the "It" which is presumed singular. And ignoring LIHOOI. Reality IMO it without doubt it was "National Level LIHOOI" (that much almost "by definition") But the structure - taxonomy - of the issues into parts spread across individual persons up through sections of agencies >> agencies >> agency interactions >> whole of Government has not been recognised in most debate. Leading to what essentially becomes a false dichotomy of "yes or no".

3) my own area of issue with 9/11 Truth Movement strategies. The concentration of interest focus on false technical claims - in reality the "Big Four" (or 6 depending how we count them) - IMO all the other technical issues are support for the 4 or 6. And that technical focus has been a barrier to effective discussion of 9/11 politics - whether "internal" to the causalities of the events OR extending to more global impacts.

So I appreciate both your comments.

However I'll withdraw and retreat to my OWN comfort zone - WTC collapses and the "No go" territory of lèse-majesté about those bigger picture and base assumption errors. :rolleyes:
 
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9-11 was the first major event to happen against the backdrop of a functioning internet accessed by a majority of American citizens at the time of the attack in 2001. In the years since then there has been a shattering of reason in the American collective intellect, and this has been so much more damaging by social media's rise. Today the average person can tune out all ideas that contradict his or her own and only receive data that confirms their world view not matter what that is.

All of this is set upon a foundation of a declining base of common knowledge. Americans are ignorant of so many important things that their counterparts back in 1960 and 1970 would have had a basic grasp on the issues of the day. In 2001, most Americans had no clue about the relationship between the Saudis and the US Government, but it was no secret. 60 Minutes and PBS Frontline had done a few expose' on the subject during the 1990s, and there were plenty of books in the political science section of the bookstore waiting to be bought. Every once in awhile a congressperson would raise questions only to be shouted down.

In March, 2001, every mainland military installation closed off public access based on the threat of a terrorist attack. This did not happen in secret, the closures were front page news in the communities which were effected. The bottom line: the Department of Defence was expecting a terrorist strike within CONUS....the average American couldn't be bothered. Nobody lost sleep over the fact that the military was building fences to protect its personnel living on post.

In July, the State Department issued a travel warning in which the stated threat was Al Qaeda hijacking commercial jetliners. The warning expired on August 31st. It was in the newspapers...but in the back section...

So here you have two known events occurring prior to 9-11 where the government is responding to a terror threat. In the case of the DoS travel warning, it was meant for travel in the Mediterranean, but clearly links AQ to hijacking commercial jets. If someone is looking for a meaningful explanation of the intelligence and FBI failures leading to 9-11, this is where to start.

1.What information was the DoD acting upon? They obviously took it seriously because they didn't have the extra money to build fences and upgrade security...but they did it anyway. What was the urgency based upon?

2. The State Department warning is specific, so where did their intelligence come from? Why didn't the FBI see it? What about the Air Marshalls?

The 28 Pages didn't tell us anything we either didn't already know or suspect. Meanwhile, I have listed two compelling events which show the US government responding to a terrorist threat. I have never seen anyone dig into the background behind them, not that I expect Truthers to do actual work, but even more serious researchers have yet to explore this forgotten avenue. Clearly there was some kind of actionable intelligence for the US government to react to. What was it? Why did it only stop with DoD, and DoS?

Any serious researcher should start here, but I won't be holding my breath.
 

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