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The "28 pages" thread

Assuming that some lower-level members of the Saudi government did support at least a few of the 9/11 hijackers once they had arrived in the U.S. (not implausible), is there any evidence that these officials (whoever they are) even knew that they were assisting al-Qaeda operatives - let alone, that these operatives were plotting catastrophic attacks on domestic American targets? The 9/11 Commission Report concluded that a very small number of Qaeda operatives (like, no more than nine or ten at the most) knew the full details of the 9/11 plot. Hell, even most of the hijackers (besides Atta and the other Hamburg Cell members, along with al-Hazmi and al-Midhar) didn't know exactly what they had signed up for until they had already been selected for the attacks.

Furthermore, what exactly is meant by "an al-Qaeda support network" within the U.S.? Lest we forget, al-Qaeda emerged as an offshoot of an existing organization (whose name escapes me - it's the one that was founded by Abdullah Azzam) whose job was to train, assist, and coordinate Arab volunteers for the battle against the Soviets in Afghanistan. We know that Osama bin Laden was an important figure in that organization, and that he and others in the organization had ties to other Saudi businessmen as well as Saudi intelligence and other government officials back in the 1980s. We also know that al-Qaeda was founded toward the end of the 1980s, and that it wasn't until the early-to-mid 90s (in other words, after the Saudi royal family rejected bin Laden's offer to defend the Kingdom from the threat of Saddam Hussein's Iraq in favor of "infidel" American troops) that bin Laden really started supporting and funding terrorist activities against the West. In fact, it wasn't until around 1996 that bin Laden issued his first fatwa against the Saudi royal family and its Western allies. This was around the time when bin Laden really actively began being directly involved in the planning and coordinating of al-Qaeda's terrorist operations himself, rather than merely providing some financial and ideological support for Sunni terrorist operations (and not just al-Qaeda operations, FWIW).

How does the Saudi government - which, we must remember, is not just the King and his top advisers, but many thousands of other officials (with the top posts invariably being held by members of the House of Saud) in dozens of departments within a sprawling bureaucracy, factor into all this? In a country with an extreme variant of Sunni Islam (Wahhabism) being the official state/religious ideology, it is entirely plausible that within a government of tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of officials and civil servants, there would be at least some sympathy for the likes of al-Qaeda among some of those government employees.

Keep in mind the fact that al-Qaeda has used a wide variety of fundraising methods - many of them through perfectly legitimate channels. The most significant ones would be Islamic charities, foundations, nonprofit organizations, and such; many of these are sponsored by the Saudi government. However, in organizations whose reach expands all over the world, all it would take to funnel money to al-Qaeda operatives would be to identify a handful of "friendly officials" throughout various parts of the world who would turn a blind eye to the transactions, or who otherwise had a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy - which would be pretty consistent with the Saudi government's generally lax regulation and oversight of the Islamic charities and foundations that it sponsors (particularly outside of the Kingdom, which is very relevant to how al-Qaeda and similar groups raise and coordinate their money and transfer funds to their operatives...). Or, certain charities could have been set up by al-Qaeda themselves as front organizations (at least, partially; Hamas is a good example of a group that has set up organizations that have served both legitimate charitable needs and assisted terrorist activities - though it's quite controversial, needless to say, as to what extent one or the other functions dominates among some of these organizations...).

Basically, the blurring of legitimate and illegitimate functions within Saudi or Saudi-sponsored charitable and other nonprofit religious organizations, the lax oversight and regulation of those organizations by the Saudi government (and Middle Eastern Sunni governments in general), the presence of many friendly/sympathetic individuals within said organizations who could assist in (or at least, not get in the way of) the diversion of funds to al-Qaeda front organizations, and my suspicion that the Saudi government was quite supportive of and willing to assist educated middle-class Saudi nationals in general who went to live and/or study outside of the Kingdom - all of these things should be taken into consideration when discussing alleged Saudi sponsorship of the 9/11 hijackers.
 
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Allan,

two things to consider:

1.) There are specific allegations against named members of the royal family in high government positions, far closer to the immediate center of power around the king than most of the "tens or hundreds of thousands" that you allude to. Specifically, Prince Bandar and his wife are alleged to have helped two of the 19 hijackers directly. Bandar was ambassador to the USA at the time, and later was promoted to lead the Saudi secret services - I think a sort of Saudi Condi Rice - that would be a position among the top 20 in the Kingdom. So if Bandar had even the slightest idea of what was going on, that is a huge concern.

2.) The Wahabbi clerics form a second center of power in Saudi Arabia, as they are not entirely controlled or even appointed by the House of Saud. They have a lot of control over many of those charities that excapes the royal family.
 
Of course, not every person who works for a government (or institution) has a 100% alignment of political views with the official policies of the government or institution they work for.

People have their own political agendas and will use their positions to advance them if they can... and why not? It may not ethical... but if it is not illegal they will do it.

Look at the charges often levied against the pro Israel or dual citizens in the US government... Wolfowitz, Abrams, Feith, Chertoff and so on. Clearly these guys are pushing a pro Israel anti Palestinian/Arab agenda... Who can deny this?

Why should this not happen in the fanatical Islamists that are the norm inside of SA?

The real question is... How many layers of separation do people have between ideology and active policies? Saudis are into promoting their nut case Wahabi stuff... essentially trying to dominate or convert the world to their crazy beliefs. Apparently many belief the sword is more powerful and as legimate as the pen. Ends justify the means... and we've seen and heard that for ages.

We have "plausible deniability" in play too... where the top guys policies are carried out by the managers and grunts and the top just doesn't get involved in the mechanics... they want the RESULT and so they can PAY because everything takes MONEY... And they don't want to know how the money is spent of how it flows.... Recall IRAN CONTRA... same deal.... disgusting illegal policies that were ENACTED by North and other jerks... because... they believed in the goal, had the power to do it, and believed that they were able to operate outside the law. This is the MO of the CIA for example... execute policies decisions with illegal black ops and no accountability or regard for law.

The SA stuff can open up a can of worms if the spot light is shined on how the USA maneuvers around the world... including assassinations and regime change, gun running, drugs and money laundering. The USA can't bear to have it's act laid bare and to act in a transparent manner and follow the law. Bogus excuses are given when confronted...

And did the US intel know what the Saudis were up to? If not why not? If so... this gets really ugly... what could be the CIA motive to allow "allies" to fund and support unlawful terrorism? Regime change? That ain't legal... is it?
 
Former CIA agent Robert Baer's second book, See No Evil details the unreal influence that the Saudis have within the US government in the House, Senate, and White House NSC.

In the months after 9-11, the Saudis cleaned house with certain individuals being found dead in the desert. There is no question that Saudis helped finance AQ, and it would be no surprise to discover that a few even knew of the "planes plan".
The Al Farooq Mosque in NYC also contributed money to AQ as did a handful of domestic Islamic Charities. Proving that they had direct knowledge of the 911 attacks in advance has proven to be impossible.

It all comes back to Al Qaeda, UBL and KSM, and their camps in Afghanistan. The 19 hijackers all trained there before coming here.
 
Don't you find it odd how so many people claim to know what is contained in the 28 pages that they have never seen?

So much has been known by so many, for so long that it is no longer a secret. So why do they need to be declassified? It's ridiculous.
 

Wow, Russia Today. wow

With 15 Saudis doing 9/11, it is no surprise the money to go to flight school, to travel, to live etc, comes from Saudi Arabia. Now which Saudis are the Fortiers of 9/11 - are they alive?

RT, spewing BS to fuel the CT community, helping expose the nuts in the USA; thanks so very much RT.
 
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Wow, Russia Today. wow

With 15 Saudis doing 9/11, it is no surprise the money to go to flight school, to travel, to live etc, comes from Saudi Arabia. Now which Saudis are the Fortiers of 9/11 - are they alive?

RT, spewing BS to fuel the CT community, helping expose the nuts in the USA; thanks so very much RT.

Yeah, it's not like Russia has anything to gain from hostilities between the US and Saudi Arabia. Not like they're in the oil business or anything.

Plus, the Russians are slipping. There was a time the KGB would have already leaked those 28 classified pages through British and German newspapers...you know...if there was actually anything damning in them...
 
My personal theory on why the Bush White House ordered the "28 pages" to be classified:

These pages aren't actually from the 9/11 Commission Report (which was released in late 2004, IIRC), but from an earlier report, a "Joint Congressional Inquiry" into the 9/11 attacks. This report was released in 2002. That is important information to hold on to.

First off, this report was a preliminary report that was never meant to be the final word on 9/11, by any means. And there was a lot of raw intelligence data that included identifying information of individuals who were either ruled out as suspects or haven't been proven to be involved in the attacks. According to 9/11 Commission co-chairs Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, this was the case for the "28 pages":

What often gets lost in those theories is that the 28 pages were based almost entirely on raw, unvetted material that came to the FBI. That material was written up as possible leads for further investigation, and the 28 pages were a summary of some of those reports and leads as of the end of 2002 — all of them uninvestigated. The 28 pages are comparable to preliminary law enforcement notes, which are generally covered by grand jury secrecy rules.

This point is crucial because the 9/11 attacks were the worst mass murder ever carried out in the United States. Those responsible deserve the maximum punishment possible. Therefore, accusations of complicity in that mass murder from responsible authorities are a grave matter. Such charges should be levied with care.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/04/27/911-report-28-pages-saudi-arabia-kean-hamilton/83597386/

So that's one of the main reasons for keeping the pages classified. However - in my view - there is another reason that the Bush White House made the decision to keep the pages secret. As I said toward the beginning of this post, the year 2002 is important in this context, because that was the critical year between the 9/11 attacks and the invasion of Iraq. If you remember back to 2002, an awful lot of Americans were both extremely paranoid about when and where the next big attack was going to happen, and extremely angry at not just the 9/11 hijackers, but the Islamic world in general. We were out essentially for blood, for revenge. And the Bush administration was both encouraging that anger, and directing it specifically toward Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Furthermore, it wasn't just al-Qaeda that we were after, either; it was explicit policy on the part of the Bush administration that "we will make no distinction between those who attacked us and those who harbor them." This was the rationale for overthrowing the Taliban government in Afghanistan, and the Bush administration applied the same logic to Saddam's regime. So any hint of evidence from a bipartisan U.S. government report that the Saudis - whom were pretty well known even then to have close business and personal ties to the Bushes - were funding al-Qaeda (even if unwittingly and indirectly), and were far more responsible for 9/11 than Iraq was, would have been not just politically embarrassing for the Bush administration, but quite possibly a full-blown political catastrophe for them, and not just in terms of the invasion of Iraq either; remember, the Republicans weren't in full control of Congress in 2002. With Jeffords' defection to the Democratic Party in 2001, the Democrats had a very slight edge in the Senate up until the 2002 midterms. The Bush-Cheney agenda in general was riding on the Republicans controlling both houses of Congress.

I think it is important to remember that all Presidents in the modern era are sensitive to how they are perceived by the American public, but it is also equally important to remember that all Presidents in the modern era manipulate (or attempt to, at least) the American public. The administration of George W. Bush in particular invested a lot of its energy and resources into the latter, and nowhere was this more clear than in 2002 and early 2003 during the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq. That is the context that we need to remember when discussing the "28 pages."

The final reason that I can see for the Bush White House having the 28 pages classified has less to do with the domestic political context, and more to do with that of Saudi Arabia. Simply put, the U.S. government needed the Saudis to give them their blessing for the invasion of Iraq. Any public calls for an investigation into the Saudi government by the U.S. (which would have surely resulted from the release of those 28 pages) at that time would have...um, complicated matters, and significantly so (to say nothing of what might have happened within Saudi Arabia as a consequence...).

As for why President Obama is taking so long to declassify these pages...if memory serves from what I've heard from former U.S. government officials, it is much easier within the U.S. government to classify information than it is to declassify it - without even going into political/geopolitical calculations. I don't remember exactly what those officials said, but I do remember them saying that declassification is a very delicate, agonizingly slow, bureaucratic headache. Take that as you will.

Anyway, this is all just my personal theory on this topic. What are others' thoughts on this?
 
Allen, that's mostly opinion as we can't know the true motives of the decision-makers. But it sounds awfully plausible: Those reasons may be part of why the information about Saudi complicity was covered up.

Then we need to remember that the content, and even the authors, were carried over to the 9/11 Commission, which was established in late 2002, had its first hearings on March 31st 2003, and released its final report in July 2004. This time frame is barely preceded by the Iraq invasion, which was authorized by Congress in October 2002 and started on March 19, 2003.
The conflict between co-author Dana Leseman and Commission chair Zelikow notwithstanding, we are told that the Commission did check out the raw leads in the 28 pages and found nothing that would substantiate direct Saudi culpability.
So there is a very political decision to classify that could not be trumped by the less than dramatic legally significant findings.

Declassifying now will likely not "solve the case", but put egg on the faces of US and Saudi members of the governments at the time - and I am all for that!
 
The Saudis are a very nasty bunch that the US and especially the oil guys are in bed with. They represent everything about government and human rights... that we fought against and died for for a few hundred years. We keep them close because of oil? and people are getting wealthy? And of course they have their totally perverse religious beliefs that they are spreading in the mosques they build. This is where their martyrs come from... the ones who are what we call terrorists.

Why are the Saudis allies? Why don't all democratic nations shun and isolate them? Why do they trade with this vile people? Oil... and we are hypocrites... And Obama is there right with the rest of them.
 
The Saudis are a very nasty bunch that the US and especially the oil guys are in bed with. They represent everything about government and human rights... that we fought against and died for for a few hundred years. We keep them close because of oil? and people are getting wealthy? And of course they have their totally perverse religious beliefs that they are spreading in the mosques they build. This is where their martyrs come from... the ones who are what we call terrorists.

Why are the Saudis allies? Why don't all democratic nations shun and isolate them? Why do they trade with this vile people? Oil... and we are hypocrites... And Obama is there right with the rest of them.

Necessary evil. The devil you know vs the devil you don't.

We took out Saddam, the devil we knew, and what have we left in his place?
We took out Gaddafi, a devil we knew, and what has taken his place?

The Saudis happened to control valuable real estate soaked with sweet crude, and the center of the Islamic universe. The offered stability in a place no western country wanted to commit forces to, or resources to stand up a puppet regime.

The Saudis know everybody, and have come in handy multiple times in diplomatic situations where quiet introductions were required. Saudi money has also funded US operations that other countries might label as terror. It is not such a big leap to suggest that other countries have reached out to the Saudis for help in funding questionable activities.

In short, the Saudis know where the bodies are buried. Attacking them would result in an unknown number of alliances being damaged or destroyed. After the house of Saud is gone, who runs the show then? Iraq was a headache because Arabs streamed into the country to fight us, and they didn't care about Iraq. US occupation of Saudi Arabia? NATO control? There are nightmares and then there are nightmares.
 
Just saw this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events

May 17, 2016 (Tuesday)

The U.S. Senate passes a legislation that would allow victims of the Sept. 11 attacks to file lawsuits seeking damages from Saudi Arabia despite Saudi threats to pull billions of dollars from the U.S. economy.

So, What exactly did Saudi-Arabia do? Fund Al-Qaeda? :confused:
 
The Saudis are a very nasty bunch ...

Really? I met some Saudis, they were not nasty. I worked with Saudis, they were not nasty and their kids play like other kids around the world. Is this how UBL justified killing thousands on 9/11 - were were a nasty bunch? Evil, etc?

Why so much political BS, over the top opinion based BS? What is your next step since you hate Saudi Arabia?

When the 28 pages about preliminary intel assessments is released, we will have more opinions, and will the opinions be in the 28 pages, or about the 28 pages.

The Saudis are kind of "nasty", if you are a terrorist they kill you, the next day. Rapid justice ruins your appeal process...
 
After 9-11, the Saudis made a few arrests. I can't link to the information as I can't find it any more, but some were executed. Information was then passed along to the US.
 

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