The "28 pages" thread

[JonGold]

No it hasn't.

It didn't answer a great deal of the families' questions as stated in their final statement ("The report did not answer all of our questions...") and by other family members from the 9/11 Family Steering Committee. Like the "Jersey Girls" for example.

They had Government Minders (whether or not you agree they intimidated witnesses, their very existence makes testimony questionable).

They ignored and censored a multitude of whistleblowers (so much for a "full and complete accounting").

They barely looked at the NSA. Michael Hayden "chortled" over the heat the CIA and FBI were taking.

The fact that members of the Commission had to "recuse" themselves for certain parts of their own Commission.

They used document requests instead of subpoenas (except for 2 instances that I'm aware of), which could be and were ignored.

I could go on and on, and I didn't even talk about Philip Zelikow.

The families and the people of the world deserve better than the 9/11 Commission and its report. Is there some value in what the 9/11 Commission (which wouldn't even have existed if not for the families) provided? Absolutely. I believe there were some good people on that Commission who tried to do a good job.

When I say "truthful," I mean exactly what I say. Something that is the truth, and not something inaccurate.

What question are you talking about?

 

[DGM]

When I say "truthful," I mean exactly what I say. Something that is the truth, and not something inaccurate.

What part was inaccurate? Naturally you will provide the accurate part, with documentation. (I hope this isn't a case where you only think you know the accurate case)

What question are you talking about?

The one about other countries in the same situation. Terrorist attacks like this are not exactly uncommon (maybe to the US but, not for the rest of the world)

 

[JonGold]

What part was inaccurate? Naturally you will provide the accurate part, with documentation. (I hope this isn't a case where you only think you know the accurate case)

How could I possibly tell you if what's in those pages are accurate or inaccurate? They're classified.

The one about other countries in the same situation. Terrorist attacks like this are not exactly uncommon (maybe to the US but, not for the rest of the world)

Do I think terrorism is real? Of course it is. I also think the American Empire is the greatest purveyor of it.

 

[DGM]

How could I possibly tell you if what's in those pages are accurate or inaccurate? They're classified.

You are the one that claimed you wanted "truthful over inaccurate". I figured you could back up your statement.

Do I think terrorism is real? Of course it is. I also think the American Empire is the greatest purveyor of it.

Although you have no real evidence to prove this.

Jon. Tomorrow for me has meaning because I did lose a friend. She had the misfortune of working in the south tower right about the spot UA175 made it's impact. Over the last 14 years I have made friends with more than 30 local (including the Ogonowski's) 9/11 families. I likely personally know more than you. None are "9/11 truthers".

I don't usually post on 9/11. I will offer a prayer at the local memorial if you want.

 

[JonGold]

You are the one that claimed you wanted "truthful over inaccurate". I figured you could back up your statement.

Um... what? Stating I want honesty over lies doesn't require "backing." I can't tell you what is what because the pages are classified.

Although you have no real evidence to prove this.

I wonder how many civilians we have killed lately with a drone strike. How many we've sickened with depleted uranium. How many refugees we've created. How many wounded we have created... I bet we've got the "terrorists" beat.

Jon. Tomorrow for me has meaning because I did lose a friend. She had the misfortune of working in the south tower right about the spot UA175 made it's impact. Over the last 14 years I have made friends with more than 30 local (including the Ogonowski's) 9/11 families. I likely personally know more than you. None are "9/11 truthers".

I don't usually post on 9/11. I will offer a prayer at the local memorial if you want.

Sorry for your loss. Tomorrow has meaning for me as well. We were all attacked on 9/11. As for how many family members you know, congratulations. I hope tomorrow is as easy a day as possible for all of them.

I've already posted that on FB, and sent several emails to family members saying the same thing. I do something similar every year.

 

[DGM]

Um... what? Stating I want honesty over lies doesn't require "backing." I can't tell you what is what because the pages are classified.

You are the one stating lies. What are they and where is your evidence?

I wonder how many civilians we have killed lately with a drone strike. How many we've sickened with depleted uranium. How many refugees we've created. How many wounded we have created... I bet we've got the "terrorists" beat.

Do you have something or are you just trying to pull on my heart strings?

Sorry for your loss. Tomorrow has meaning for me as well. We were all attacked on 9/11. As for how many family members you know, congratulations. I hope tomorrow is as easy a day as possible for all of them.

Thank you. I can't imagine what you mean by "congratulations"( I want to be pissed).

I've already posted that on FB, and sent several emails to family members saying the same thing.

I hope you post support and not propaganda. If you take this as harsh I hope so. Most of us 9/11 families don't think much of "9/11 truthers". No offence.

 

[beachnut]

... They ignored and censored a multitude of whistleblowers...

It is BS like this which makes 911 truth so much nonsense. What a load of BS.

No wonder 911 truth failed, and your valid arguments are ignored because you spew BS like this.

But don't be upset, there are dumber movements... https://www.facebook.com/groups/1521832074766477/ than 911 truth, sort of (got to admit, the nuke, and CD are dumber than dirt...)

 

[JonGold]

It is BS like this which makes 911 truth so much nonsense. What a load of BS.

No wonder 911 truth failed, and your valid arguments are ignored because you spew BS like this.

"Um, Sibel brought us many whistle-blowers, and I submitted them personally to Governor Kean, who was the Chairman of the Commission. And I said, "these people are not being subpoenaed. They will not come before the Commission voluntarily unless they are subpoenaed." And, he promised me... to my face that "every whistle-blower would be... indeed heard." And, most were not heard. Sibel was only heard because we dragged her in and surprised the Commission on one of the days we were meeting with them... that we had her with us." - 9/11 Family Member Patty Casazza

 

[DGM]

"Um, Sibel brought us many whistle-blowers, and I submitted them personally to Governor Kean, who was the Chairman of the Commission. And I said, "these people are not being subpoenaed. They will not come before the Commission voluntarily unless they are subpoenaed." And, he promised me... to my face that "every whistle-blower would be... indeed heard." And, most were not heard. Sibel was only heard because we dragged her in and surprised the Commission on one of the days we were meeting with them... that we had her with us." - 9/11 Family Member Patty Casazza

You really don't know any family members, do you?

 

[JonGold]

You really don'y know any family members, do you?

Sure I do. What kind of question is that? Here's a show I did with Lorie Van Auken.

https://archive.org/details/Gold9472_comcast_Show_201412

 

[George 152]

After 14 years the nutters are few in number and low on IQ..
I think we should step back and allow them space to return to that from where they sprang..

 

[JonGold]

Anyway, this has been "fun." "Nutters" is my cue to leave.

 

[DGM]

Sure I do. What kind of question is that? Here's a show I did with Lorie Van Auken.

https://archive.org/details/Gold9472_comcast_Show_201412

You met after the fact?

Tomorrow I'll get together with real family............

 

[ozeco41]

Anyway, this has been "fun." "Nutters" is my cue to leave.

How do those of us who can see merit in your claims understand or help you if you run away in the face of the unintelligent minority?

This place - like many other forums - is loaded with people who cannot post legitimate argument and so resort to insults.

The "debunker" side is no better in reasoned logic than the core of "genuine truthers".

The playing field happens to be tilted to the "OCT" and "Debunker" side.

Most discussion is focused on the technical events where - without serious doubt - the official versions are mostly correct. The truther side on the technical issues is mostly false. It is hard for anyone to argue for false claims even when you have the bulk of the opposition matched or bettered for intelligence.

Bur that focus on technical leaves the political untouched.

Why give up so easily in the face of partial truth evasions?

 

[Oystein]

I sure wish I could read Bandar's MFR (Memoranda For The Record) but it's classified. I'd also like to see him testify publicly and under oath. John Lehman specifically asked Bush about Bandar and his wife, and Bush "dodged the questions." Bush did WHAT?!? Put his ass on the stand too. Riggs Bank and Bandar's connections to it. There are plenty of reasons to suspect somehow Bandar is connected.

Thanks for confirming that you know of no actionable evidence that would justify placing Bandar on that list which jimd3100 excerpted, and right on top of it.

 

[Oystein]

Anyway, this has been "fun." "Nutters" is my cue to leave.

Sorry to see you leave so soon. I really would have loved to learn if you still think claims of CD still have a place, any legitimacy, in 2015, because you say you value truth so much, and those claims are so utterly untrue and detrimental to the families' causes.

When I say "truthful," I mean exactly what I say. Something that is the truth, and not something inaccurate.

 

[ozeco41]

Sorry to see you leave so soon. I really would have loved to learn if you still think claims of CD still have a place, any legitimacy, in 2015, because you say you value truth so much, and those claims are so utterly untrue and detrimental to the families' causes.

It is significant that he will not distance himself from untruths despite his claim to be seeking truth.

And several of us made it very clear we have sympathy for validly expressed concerns in the political arena.

I can comprehend the strategic difficulty - two options for choosing:

A) The appearance of more support if he allows dishonest "truthers" like the CD proponents to stay in the fold. More numbers - lower quality.

Conflicting with

B) A more valid base for political actions if "they" drop the claimants for CD and other technical falsehoods. Higher quality (possibly???) but lesser numbers.

"B" should be the more politically viable in the current situation where they haven't got the numbers in any scenario involving voting - it would be different if there was a large upsurge of general community support - in such a scenario truth is less relevant than weight of opinion - but that sort of upsurge aint gunna happen.

 

[beachnut]

Anyway, this has been "fun." "Nutters" is my cue to leave.

Claims of inside job, thermite, terrorists can't fly, fantastic flying maneuvers, CD, and other nonsense claims are in the "nutter" tent of woo.

And ... lol

"Um, Sibel brought us many whistle-blowers,..." - 9/11 Family Member Patty Casazza

BS, she is not a whistle-blower, her BS has nothing to do with 911. You have no whistle-blowers, you have BS artists with nonsense. If you had whistle-blowers, you would have a Pulitzer Prize in the first year after 911, like Watergate. What you have is a failed movement with a 1984 like title, "truth", which produces lies, has no zero evidence, and spew BS like "many whistle-blowers".

Many??? Is that 911 truth speak for zero.

 

[JSanderO]

I suppose the problem for someone such as Jon.... who I assume is well intentioned... is that he will find the most resonance in the anti establishment base of the truth "movement"... which shares with him a distrust and contempt for the government / national security state. Sibel hates it of course... as do people like Annie Machon.

Government, media and the corporations are often in lockstep and their agenda are not really of, for and by the people... more about power, influence and money... and protecting those franchises. There is much to dislike about almost ANY government... for these sorts of reasons. Sweden is a very evolved society but they seemed to be on a witchhunt with respect to Assange. The French president Mitterand gave the order to blow up the Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior. There are good people in government and their are asshats. There are people who abuse power because it suits them.

The guilty on 9/11 were the hijackers and those who supported them. I don't what he expects for the families... but release of these pages is not unreasonable. If they show that Saudis financially supported the attack.. they need to be held accountable in a court of law... not protected. But we don't know. Let's find out.

Jon probably needs to be more rational and distance himself with people who are mis informed and willfully ignorant. Maybe.

 

[Brainster]

"Um, Sibel brought us many whistle-blowers, and I submitted them personally to Governor Kean, who was the Chairman of the Commission. And I said, "these people are not being subpoenaed. They will not come before the Commission voluntarily unless they are subpoenaed." And, he promised me... to my face that "every whistle-blower would be... indeed heard." And, most were not heard. Sibel was only heard because we dragged her in and surprised the Commission on one of the days we were meeting with them... that we had her with us." - 9/11 Family Member Patty Casazza

Ah, Sibel Edmonds, who lied twice in her letter to the 9-11 Commission. And I assume Patty Casazza is talking about her ridiculous informant she met along the side of the road, who claimed that the US government knew the date and method of the attacks. (About 20:00)