The 100% Impossible 9/11 Inside Job

[minnemouse]

If that's the thread I remember, he was really lucky he didn't make those allegations face to face; that thread was an epic internet beatdown.

Yup; exactly! I fully understand why the real firefighters were angry; this Lawyer character litterally called the firefighters that were actually THERE liars!

I am wondering if his real agenda is to make PR for his own real estate business?

 

[leftysergeant]

I am wondering if his real agenda is to make PR for his own real estate business?

Last I heard, he was working at Windemere, which appears to cater more for the luxury market than working class homes.

In that context, it seems a dumb move.

Not that it would surprise me.

 

[silver birch]

1. What makes you think he was a fire chief? The rank of Lt.? Is that so?

2. Note the parenthese: "(ret)". He is now retired, and was retired already in 2001. He was not actually with the FDNY on 9/11/2001. So the information that he used to be a New York fire person (I avoid "chief" cuz I think that's a lie you told us) is irrelevant.

3. We talked about Vodvarka before on this forum, check out these posts from an interesting debate last october:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7658758&highlight=Vodvarka#post7658758 (I show that Vodvarka is a liar, an all-around Conspiracy-Theories nut, and too old to have served the FDNY on 9/11)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7661921&highlight=Vodvarka#post7661921 (Dave Rogers analyses the many lies Vodvarka tells)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7664273&highlight=Vodvarka#post7664273 (LashL comments aptly on Vodvarka's lies and people, like you, silver birch, who let such lies pass)



ETA:
Check out the Wikipedia article on FDNY to learn about their ranks:

Vodvarka, as Lt., was NOT a fire chief! When he retired, he was a shoift supervisor at best! Two ranks below chief.

Silver birch, did you make that lie up yourself, or did you unskeptically repeat someone else's lie? I really want to know!

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.
NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

 

[leftysergeant]

NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

Yeah, well that does not mean that the old dude gets a pass. He's probably quite dotty, from what I see him spewing on CT sites.

He was not in any place from which he coulld observes anything I could not see on TV. He seems to have gotten most of his data from Alex Jones.

I must summarily dismiss anything else he claims as just more uniformed blather.

 

[triforcharity]

Just a reminder to everyone here. Erik Lawyer is a member here, and is therefore protected by the MA.

Hey silver, I have a post you COMPLETELY ignored. Would you care to address it?

 

[twinstead]

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.
NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

So exactly what are the criteria for an opinion to be scoffed at or not scoffed at in your opinion? You DO realize that there are opinions from high-ranking and respected members of the FDNY that are in support of the "official story" (or what rational people call the commonly-held narrative of events).

Do you think their opinions should be scoffed at or ignored?

 

[Oystein]

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.
NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

So you just admitted that you personally made up that "chief" bit; whether out of ignorance or ill intent is secondary. Do not make up claims that you can't support with facts!

Even in the British armed forces, lieutenants are the most junior rank of commissioned officers typically conceived of as the deputy to a Captain who would commandeer a company. Why did you make him a "chief" when your informnation was simply "Lt."? Why not call him a lieutenant? Why the urge to beef-up his credentials?

Vodvarka is one voice among millions of firefighers. His having formerly served with the FDNY means nothing in context; he wasn't active in 2001 and wasn't there when it happened. The thousands of active FDNY men and women on the scene, among them real chiefs, much more highly qualified than Vodvarka, made the calls and are the ones to go to. Why are they not featured om FF911T? Why is a CT-loon from the lower ranks who's retired to Florida the only asset they have? Answer: Because real, qualified firefighters know full well that CT nuts are wrong.

Where are the FDNY firefighters who do believe in 9/11 truth? I asked you before for a name, link and quote. You only found the retired low CT nut, the one who also believes in JFK conspiracy theories and is all invested in fiat-money CTs. The guy who would believe any crap you throw at him.

So I must repeat my request: Names, links and quotes please of real FDNY men from the scene who beliebe truther lore!


ETA:
FF911T has a list of signers of their petiton. The first 80 or 85 are "Confirmed Firefighter Signatories", then follow close to 1000 "Other Signatories".

Among the "Confirmed Firefighter Signatories", there are a few with ties to the FDNY:

1. Bryan Hunt, FDNY, retired 8-15 Years: "I retired from FDNY in 1998. I knew many of the guys who died in the WTC collapses. May they rest in peace. I've read tons of information re. the deaths of my brothers on 9/11. I've watched the videos, listened to the rantings on both sides. It wasn't until 2006 that I began questioning the "official story" and did my own research. There is bad info on both sides, but I've concluded that the "official story" doesn't add up. It sounds like a whitewash. The 9/11 Commission didn't investigate anything--they just took statements. We need a real, independent investigation, with supeona powers. If the "offical" version is correct, so be it. And if heads are going to roll at any level of the government or military, so be it. Let's do it, and let's not be afraid of the truth. The brothers deserve that much."
2. Jim Osorio, LFD Rescue 1 - Acting Rescue 5 FDNY N/A: "I responded to this horrific incident with my fellow firefighters, and will always remember this and will never forget my brother and sister firefighters who responded and paid the ultimate sacrifice."
3. John Keenan FDNY retired N/A
4. xxxxxxxx FDNY ret. Lt. 15+ Years (in alphabetical order between "Kevin" and "Laila")

#1 was retired in 2001.

#2 lies: See this post: "Mr. Osorio was not a member of the FDNY nor was he at ground zero." He was with the Livingston FD (New Jersey), and they helped out FDNY Rescue 5 in Staten Island after Rescue 5 had lost 11 men at the WTC.

#3 Is an unclear case. Via Google, I find two John Keenans, they are father and son. The father entered the FDNY in 1970 and is a retired Batallion Chief by now. Not sure when he retired, but I found one document that shows he was retired in october 2003 already. His son entered the FDNY in jan, 2002. Both are depicted here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/medal_day/2008/fire/pdf/17.pdf
Now, strangely, I found a photo on MySpace with Eric Lawyer and a John Keenan, and I don't think he looks like the nice eledrly man in the previous document: http://www.myspace.com/firefightersfor911truth/photos/14901412

#4 is an anonymous. Retired. No personal statement.

 

[Sabretooth]

do not accuse me of lying.

What would you call it?

You either made up this little nugget or you just regurgitated the garbage from somewhere else. Neither opinion is favorable.

I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.

Huh?

Based on what I've found, the rank of Lieutenant in either the RAF or British Army is on the low end of officers.

This holds true in the fire service as well. I am currently an EMS Lieutenant at my station...and I'm the lowest ranking officer.

You got a great nose for research there...

Jeez...a 5-second stop at wikipedia would have kept you from making a fool of yourself. But, in typical truther fashion, you just say your stupid statements and make everyone do your research for you.

NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

You just outed yourself as a big old hypocrite. Out of the 11,000+ members of FDNY, a couple of kooks demand more attention than the overwhelming majority? Using your logic, your argument automatically fails.

There are several members here...Tri, Bell, myself...that are real life fireman. Don't come in here and try to pretend like you know what you're talking about.

 

[NoahFence]

do not accuse me of lying

There's an easy way around that, you know.

Don't lie.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

New pearl harbour revisited, by David Ray Griffin,
would have caused sufficient structural damage to help initiate collapse.

you were asked to source Skilling not Griffin. (do you know Griffin is a theologian don't you?). And Griffin lies when he says calcs were for a 707 at 600mph.

 

[silver birch]

So exactly what are the criteria for an opinion to be scoffed at or not scoffed at in your opinion? You DO realize that there are opinions from high-ranking and respected members of the FDNY that are in support of the "official story" (or what rational people call the commonly-held narrative of events).

Do you think their opinions should be scoffed at or ignored?

what are the criteria?
how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

 

[Oystein]

what are the criteria?

The criteria are of course "are they arguing from facts or from fiction?" and "do they arrive at their conclusions using facts and principles of logic and science?", and in those regards, we have already shown last year that Anton Vodvarka fails - on the FF911T homepage he regurgitates a lot of "truther" talking points that are, plainly and simply, FALSE, and goes from there. He works from false premises^[1] because he wasn't there and has not been exposed to all the relevant evidence. Instead, he lives and breathes CT woo.


[1] Footnote: Or, more likely, he works backwards from false conclusions and chooses false premises just because he feels they support his false conclusions.

how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

Loaded and invalid question. Do you have proof that anybody loses their job for speaking up? In that case, every fireman of the FDNY who was there and has retired since could have spoken up, as they can't lose their job any longer. It's been over 10 years, ya know. We can expect 25% of the thousands who have been there to have spoken up.

The much more logical explanation for their silence is the null-hypothesis: That there is nothing to be spoken up of.

 

[twinstead]

what are the criteria?
how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

Yea, you're right--nobody in the history of the Earth has ever decided to risk his job or even his very life to expose a conspiracy. Thread over

Seriously? Do you seriously think that you can just hand wave that question away with "they're just afraid of loosing their jobs?"?

 

[twinstead]

you were asked to source Skilling not Griffin. (do you know Griffin is a theologian don't you?). And Griffin lies when he says calcs were for a 707 at 600mph.

Being a theologian is very important in this debate because it means that God is on Griffin's side. We're doomed!

 

[Disbelief]

Yea, you're right--nobody in the history of the Earth has ever decided to risk his job or even his very life to expose a conspiracy. Thread over

Seriously? Do you seriously think that you can just hand wave that question away with "they're just afraid of loosing their jobs?"?

And they have been so quiet concerning problems in NY. They have not complained about radio communications on 9/11 or the effects of the conditions at GZ during clean up.

 

[BStrong]

Too often CT'ers (and the 9/11 version aren't any better) think that the gubmint is all powerful, but able to hide anything...

I am reminded of how much the US government was paying for screwdrivers in the 90's (upwards of $250 per screwdriver you could buy from ACE hardware for under $10) and toilet seats for the navy ($400 to $800 per seat).

We have a government where a secret between 2 people (bill clinton and monica L) couldn't be covered up, but a super sekret gubmint CT that would involve dozens (at the bare minimum) up to thousands of people (cuz it is compartamentalized) and no one ever comes forward... amazing operational security.

Not a truther here, but one of the ways that black ops funds are hidden in the budget are what you describe above in bold.

WRT Tempesta's version - all that MKultra really proved is that the human mind can be fooled with - you can't turn a Quaker into Carlos Hathcock or Larry Thorne.

 

[Edx]

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute..

Really?

http://www.army.mod.uk/structure/23155.aspx

According to the official British Army website, the first very basic officer rank greater than Officer Cadet is Second Lieutenant.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Why do I get the feeling silver birch has never served, has no clue how the British 'forces work, and is lying again?

 

[twinstead]

In the US military a "butter bar" second lieutenant technically outranks a command sergeant major, and that NCO would have to salute him, but I know which ones opinion would hold more weight.

 

[leftysergeant]

what are the criteria?
how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

That is totally un-called for. You imply that the ballsiest mofs in NYC can be intimidated into concelaing information concerning the murder of about three hundred of their brothers, that they would remain silent when their lungs start rotting out, that they could be bribed into silence when they would really want to destroy the career of a worthless poppinjay like Rotten Rudy.

Let me tell you something about how real men, especially fire fighters react to people who try to use fear to control them.

When frightened, people either become intimidated and accept control over them, or they get pissed off and take action against that which they fear.

Fire fighters are paid to force their way into the center of places where nobody with the sense that God gave houseflies wants to be. They spend a great part of their lives facing down one of the forces of nature that cause weaker soulls to melt into a pile of goo.

Take your fear of unemployment and put it someplace where it causes you discomfort. Fire fighters have no time for it.