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Thank You Ralph Nader!

I really hate to bring this up, but this has not been established, at least not enough to have changed the result of the election. Maybe you didn't mean it that way.

If you didn't, sorry...
It's kind of hard to "establish" the outcome of any "what if" scenario, but even as an admitted liberal and a person who is glad Clinton won, I think it is likely.

But many scenarios are possible. Withdrawing and letting the remaining two candidates scramble for your votes might yield one outcome, while withdrawing and throwing your support behind another candidate might yield a completely different outcome.
 
Nader knew his running in 2000 would increase Bush's chances of being elected so when I see him rail against Bush on TV now I'm not buying it for a minute. He can say whatever he wants but his actions reveal his intent.

My problem with this kind of positioning game is that the outcome can only ever be for the worse. The republicans will always get their way. They move two steps in the wrong direction, and the democratic candidate will automatically follow one step in the wrong direction.

Obviously the republicans don't play that game. They didn't nominate Bush because he was some kind of middle-of-the-road-make-everybody-yawn-but-not-hate-him kind of person. And guess what happened.. Bush still won. How could that be, if a democrat actually being a democrat couldn't win?

I think that people voting Nader may very well realise that Gore or Kerry were in some ways significantly less bad than Bush, but they still felt that in the long run, it was vital to refuse participating in this 'unavoidable' march to hell.
 
The republicans will always get their way.
Way to go, Merko. Are you trying to reposition yourself from intelligent poster to "as dumb as a CT twit" in one post? If so, you are succeeding.

In 1992, a simple message did exactly the opposite.

"It's the economy, stupid."

And just like that, the Republicans did not get their way. Oh, and FWIW, Ross Perot helped.

Please refresh yourself by checking out a fact or two, OK? You have raised expectancy by the level, if not accuracy, of a great deal of previous discourse. Don't go all 28th Kingdom or Killtown on us.

You usually offer better quality. Please return to form.

Thanks in advance.

DR
 
I disagree with this.

Isn't that special.

If Nader hadn't run in 2000 then Gore would've won.

An oft-repeated assertion, one that is (fortunately for those who repeat the mantra) impossible to prove in any meaningful way.

Yes, if the Dems had run a better candidate in 2000 then the Dems would've won, but so what?

So...Blaming Nader for the Democrats' running a crappy candidate doesn't make sense. Blame the Democrats. They were the ones who lost.

If the GOP had run a worse candidate in 2000 then the Dems would've won too (and don't say there were no worse candidates than Bush because there were). Or if Nader hadn't run in 2000 _and_ the Dems had run a better candidate than Gore then the Dems would've won by a lot. So what?

Amazing the way those "ifs" work. Almost as if they were substantial arguments.

The bottom line is that in 2000 Nader blah blah blah

No, the bottom line is this; Gore sucked enough not to have earned my vote. Kerry sucked enough not to have earned my vote.

If want to blame someone, blame them.

Don't blame me for voting for someone who more closely represented my values, and don't blame Nader for running. That's called "democracy" and "free choice." Trying to force other candidates out of the race because they might "steal" votes, like the Democrats did in 2000 and in 2004? That is neither.
 
So you may call Nader a "convenient scapegoat" if you like, but unless you can show that the Democrats would have lost even if he hadn't run, then your not making a good case for that.
As I recall (and I don't have the numbers handy to back this up, so take it as you will); Nader didn't co-opts a significant number of Democrat voters during either election. Those who voted for Nader/GP, according to polls, were typically those who don't vote at all, or were fringe third-party voters (GP and similar) who wouldn't have voted Democrat. Nader's numbers were due in large part to mobilizing an atypical number of non-voting single-issue voters and extremist environmentalists by providing the sort of highly visual candidate that the GP lacked in the past.
 
In 1992, a simple message did exactly the opposite.
Uh, I never said the Democrats always played this game. But when they do - and I think they have done so at least for the last two presidential elections - the conclusion is valid.
 
As I recall (and I don't have the numbers handy to back this up, so take it as you will); Nader didn't co-opt a significant number of Democrat voters during either election. Those who voted for Nader/GP, according to polls, were typically those who don't vote at all, or were fringe third-party voters (GP and similar) who wouldn't have voted Democrat. Nader's numbers were due in large part to mobilizing an atypical number of non-voting single-issue voters and extremist environmentalists by providing the sort of highly visual candidate that the GP lacked in the past.
I know that is a possible scenario, but from what I know of environmentalists (being a moderate one myself) I find that they are highly political. Sure there is a fringe that would never vote Dem or GOP, but they really are a fringe. A lot of Nader's support was solid, politically active people who just consider the environment a high priority, plus a number who liked his views on other positions.

But as I said earlier, a lot would depend on how he dropped out. If he actively threw his support behind Gore, that would certainly have made a difference. If he just stopped campaigning, that would have made much less of a difference.
 
Whats with all the dumb OP's lately, yet the thread still turning into a good discussion?
 
Here's a problem I have with the argument that Nader is to blame for anything: If Nader had not run in 2000, how does anyone know his supporters (or enough to make a difference) wouldn't have just stayed home?

The idea any candidate "takes" votes from another candidate is rather silly. They the voter's to give and the candidate's to earn. In my view, the Democrats deserved to lose in 2000 and 2004. If the Republicans lose in 2008, it'll be because they deserve to lose, too.
 
Here's a problem I have with the argument that Nader is to blame for anything: If Nader had not run in 2000, how does anyone know his supporters (or enough to make a difference) wouldn't have just stayed home?
We don't "know" it. Luchog mentioned some polls that suggested something like this, but we all know how polls can be manipulated. Speaking as an environmentalist and and nearly a Nader voter, I can say honestly that I would never stay home. I eventually voted for Gore, but it was a hard and pragmatic decision.

The idea any candidate "takes" votes from another candidate is rather silly. They the voter's to give and the candidate's to earn. In my view, the Democrats deserved to lose in 2000 and 2004. If the Republicans lose in 2008, it'll be because they deserve to lose, too.
I would say that is a very simplistic way of looking at the situation. Since each voter (we hope) gets only one vote, obviously any if they cast their vote for one candidate, that is a vote another candidate cannot have. Almost all of the campaigning in a presidential election is aimed at a relatively small but critical segment: the undecideds. Tiny things can influence the swing of that segment, especially in an election as close as the 2000 one was.

No, I'm not being a crybaby because Bush won. I don't like it, but the laws of our country decided he won and I don't dispute them. I also point out for historical comment, that lots of things could have changed that. Nader swinging his support to Gore would have very likely been one of those things. Nader swinging his support to Bush would have meant we didn't have to go through that whole Florida debacle. It's the butterfly effect.
 
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I dunno. I think it is screwed up that we only really have two almost equally balanced parties. Yeah Nader ran and probably screwed things up, but that seems more like we the voters fault - not that candidates run. If anything I'd like to see more candidates run - and nationally, not just in a few states. I'd love to have the same candidate list in Arizona that Florida or Ohio had. That change won't come until we demand it, so its hard for me to blame Nader.

"Twelve percent of Florida Democrats (over 200,000) voted for Republican George Bush" -San Francisco Chronicle, Nov. 9, 2000

Even if none of the factors mentioned above had happened, the votes of Florida voters themselves show that Ralph Nader was not responsible for George W. Bush’s presidency. If one percent of these Democrats had stuck with their own candidate, Al Gore would easily have won Florida and become president. In addition, half of all registered Democrats did not even bother going to the polls and voting.

http://cagreens.org/alameda/city/0803myth/myth.html

Bush was (and still is) very good at selling himself as a moderate when he needs to.
 
I dunno. I think it is screwed up that we only really have two almost equally balanced parties. Yeah Nader ran and probably screwed things up, but that seems more like we the voters fault - not that candidates run. If anything I'd like to see more candidates run - and nationally, not just in a few states. I'd love to have the same candidate list in Arizona that Florida or Ohio had. That change won't come until we demand it, so its hard for me to blame Nader.

Bush was (and still is) very good at selling himself as a moderate when he needs to.
I'd be in favor of that if weh had a run-off system or a ranked-vote system (vote for your favorite, then second favorite etc.), but under the current system, third party candidates, unless they can capture some electoral votes, merely hurt the chances of the candidates they are most like.

Oh, and about this:
"Twelve percent of Florida Democrats (over 200,000) voted for Republican George Bush" -San Francisco Chronicle, Nov. 9, 2000

Even if none of the factors mentioned above had happened, the votes of Florida voters themselves show that Ralph Nader was not responsible for George W. Bush’s presidency. If one percent of these Democrats had stuck with their own candidate, Al Gore would easily have won Florida and become president. In addition, half of all registered Democrats did not even bother going to the polls and voting.
It would be a mistake to assume that everybody who is a registered Democrat is actually a Democrat. Many people cross parties so that they vote in the primaries for the candidate thay they would most like to see their preferred candidate run against. (I'm a registered Republican in Texas). Does that story show how many registered Republicans voted for Gore?

Also note that the article you linked (a Green Party site) talks only about Florida. Unless I am mistaken, there were some other states where neither Bush nor Gore had a clear majority. New Hampshire, for one example. Iowa for another.
 
Does it occur to you that this is and was also true of justices nominated by Truman through Clinton?

Why is the nomination package by Bush so special to you? Could it be your bias?
Did you miss the first part of that paragraph? He said, "the repercussions are still being felt", then brought up the supreme court to support that. So clearly he's being accurate.

The fact that the repercussions of any presidency are still felt for some time after that presidency doesn't chance the fact that it's true of this one. And as we're discussing this one, it is of some importance. It wouldn't make any sense to bring up Reagan in this context.

You might ask, "what's the point of bringing up that fact?" You'd have to ask him, though I imagine that it's to illustrate just how important losing an election is, in so much as it has repercussions beyond the term of the president.
I think it's a pretty obvious point, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been made. I certainly don't see how by doing so he was evincing political bias.
 
The interesting thing is that in 2004, even if all Nader's votes went to Kerry, Bush still would've won both the popular and electoral votes.


Ohio was the key swing state. If the 20 electoral votes in Ohio has gone to Kerry, then Bush would not have been able to obtain the needed electoral majority...

Just 118,000 votes made the difference. With the vast polling problems that cropped up in Ohio, that is a ridiculously small number.
In any case, Ralph Nader was not on the ballot in Ohio, so, there is nothing in the above statement about "Nader's votes" that would actually reflect on the outcome.
 
I'd be in favor of that if weh had a run-off system or a ranked-vote system (vote for your favorite, then second favorite etc.), but under the current system, third party candidates, unless they can capture some electoral votes, merely hurt the chances of the candidates they are most like.

Oh, and about this:

It would be a mistake to assume that everybody who is a registered Democrat is actually a Democrat. Many people cross parties so that they vote in the primaries for the candidate thay they would most like to see their preferred candidate run against. (I'm a registered Republican in Texas). Does that story show how many registered Republicans voted for Gore?

Also note that the article you linked (a Green Party site) talks only about Florida. Unless I am mistaken, there were some other states where neither Bush nor Gore had a clear majority. New Hampshire, for one example. Iowa for another.

I don't disagree with anything there. Arizona tends to have this problem with state elections - extremist candidates can wield influence far beyond their size.
 
George Will writes:
The axiom is as old as human striving: The perfect is the enemy of the good. In politics this means that insisting on perfection in a candidate interferes with selecting a satisfactory one.

Will is talking about conservatives, but the same thing applies to the other side.

By now Gore, had he been elected, would probably have achieved peace in the Middle East, invented a cure for AIDS, and prevented global warming.

Sigh.
:(
 
By now Gore, had he been elected, would probably have achieved peace in the Middle East
Nope, better men than him have tried and failed. He'd have tried, however, of that we can be sure, but to pretend that a US president can achieve Middle East peace is to misunderstand the Middle East. Only the people there can make the peace, though the US can aid and abet, as President Carter did with Egypt and Israel.
invented a cure for AIDS
Nope, he's not a doctor. He might have endorsed more funding for the research, however.
, and prevented global warming.
Nope. Even Al Gore admits that it will take more than a few years to reverse the trend he is so concerned about. That said, I imagine he'd have tried to make some changes to US energy policy, but whether or not he'd have overcome the Congressional Corporate complex is unknown.

You are batting zero for three.

DR
 

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