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Texas does it again

While were on the subject I’d like to bring up a local conviction I have serious reservations about.

It concerns a very high-profile case known as ‘The Yogurt Shop Murders’ and you may have heard of it as it got lots of national attention.

It was a particularly heinous crime. Someone entered an “I Can’t Believe It’s Yogurt’ shop here in Austin where four teenage girls worked and after robbing the place they raped and killed the girls and then set fire to the shop to destroy evidence.

Needless to say this outraged and sickened our community and we all wanted to see the killers brought to justice.

The problem was there was virtually no physical evidence to work with. No murder weapon, no DNA and most anything relevant was destroyed by fire.

Months turned into years and everyone was frustrated. There was one very public misstep as some Mexican Nationals being held in Mexico ‘confessed’ to the crime but it was later determined that they were not the guilty parties and had only confessed because they were beaten by the police.

Finally after many years the police issued warrants and arrested four men who were teenagers at the time and charged them with the crime. Charges were soon dropped against one due to lack of evidence but most feel that the police had finally found those responsible and they had confessions.

Before they actually came to trial, however, a very disturbing photo appeared in the local paper. It was from an overhead camera in the interrogation room where one of the defendants was being questioned and it very clearly showed a detective holding a gun to the defendants head.

The police account of this stated that the gun was not loaded and that it had nothing to do with intimidation and that the detective was merely acting out a point in the defendant’s confession for clarification.

Nonetheless, the first defendant to stand trial, Robert Springsteen, was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to death based on his and another’s confession, even though there were serious doubts raised as to whether or not coercion was involved, there was no physical evidence linking any of the suspects to the crime and no murder weapon was ever recovered.

I would very much like to see those responsible held accountable but I am also very disturbed that this man should be sentenced to death on this evidence. I was not at the trial and in my heart I do believe that they have the right individuals yet I have a hard time believing this is enough evidence to qualify as ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ and to justify a young man’s execution.

It is certainly not the first time I have had qualms about a death sentence in my home state.
 
Aoidoi said:
The murder was in 1986. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 years from crime to executing the criminal. How long would be appropriate to wait?

It's generally impossible to remove all doubt... I mean, aliens could have used their evil Ray-O-Matic to kill Joyce Munguia and faked everything. It could have been an interdimensional murder spree by Elvis. The MIB are behind the whole thing. These are all doubts, but they aren't reasonable doubts, which is why that is the standard for conviction. Sentencing is done on the assumption that the criminal is guilty. If the convicted isn't guilty that's the problem right there... the DP is a seperate issue.

there was no rush, until evidence was produced by independant researchers that the case was weak, then the rush was on.
 
Aoidoi said:
The murder was in 1986. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 years from crime to executing the criminal. How long would be appropriate to wait?

It's generally impossible to remove all doubt... I mean, aliens could have used their evil Ray-O-Matic to kill Joyce Munguia and faked everything. It could have been an interdimensional murder spree by Elvis. The MIB are behind the whole thing. These are all doubts, but they aren't reasonable doubts, which is why that is the standard for conviction. Sentencing is done on the assumption that the criminal is guilty. If the convicted isn't guilty that's the problem right there... the DP is a seperate issue.

An appropriate time to wait is forever, if there is doubt about the person's guilt; or, at least, his/her lifetime in prison. The fact that "It's generally impossible to remove all doubt," is a very good argument against the death penalty. All too often, people are convicted on circumstantial evidence or other evidence that the jury may interpret either way. Mexican police stations are not the only ones where confessions aretortured from people. All lawyers are not Perry Mason or Matlock. And all cops are not Adam Twelve or Columbo.
 
aerocontrols said:


Emotional responses such as, for instance, 'revulsion'?

It's one of the unwritten rules of liberalism: only emotional reactions that sympathize with the criminal are allowed in polite society.
 
Skeptic said:


It's one of the unwritten rules of liberalism: only emotional reactions that sympathize with the criminal are allowed in polite society.

strawman

apart from that, it appears that the only important thing is that someone gets fried.

doesn't matter if the actual guy that did it gets off. where is the sense in that?
 
strawman

Oh, I dunno, "A Unique Person".

On this board, at least, you consistently sympathize with murderers (from Arafat to Saddam Hussein to this guy), ignore or belittle their victims, and criticize anybody who fights against them.

There isn't any logical reason for such an attitude; I therefore conclude that it has to be emotional in nature.
 
Skeptic said:
strawman

Oh, I dunno, "A Unique Person".

On this board, at least, you consistently sympathize with murderers (from Arafat to Saddam Hussein to this guy), ignore or belittle their victims, and criticize anybody who fights against them.


prove it.



There isn't any logical reason for such an attitude; I therefore conclude that it has to be emotional in nature.
 
a_unique_person said:


prove it.

(Shrug)

Well, we could start with your claims that the terrorist war of annihilation started by Arafat is not really his fault. Or your claim that he "chose peace" until the evil jews (I mean, *cough* israelies *cough*) angered him, ignoring the fact that he had repeatedly and publically stated the the so-called Oslo "peace" agreement are merely part of the "stage plan" for israel's destruction. Or your outrage at "innocent palestinians" killed by jews, even if unintentionally, while shrugging off suicide bombings of children, or the massacre of entire jewish neighborhoods, as merely part of the impersonal "circle of violence" that is really all the jews' (I mean, *cough* zionists *cough*) fault anyway.

As far as supporting Saddam, there is your constant criticisms of Bush's "warmongering", "evil secret motives" and "contempt for the international community", etc., while completely ignoring Saddam's obvious motive of staying in power as an all-powerful murderous dictator, or his little sojurns into Iran in the 1980s and Kuwait in the 1990s, let alone his massacre of hundreds of thousands of his own people. You don't care that Saddam is probably the greatest killer of innocent people alive today--as long as he is against the US, that's fine.

As for cuddling criminals, in your first post in this thread you started off by putting the word "criminal" used to described the executed person in quotes, clearly implying it's some sort of unfair designation, no doubt by the evil government. You then continued to post about how unfairly he was treated, why this is all a horrible disgrace, etc.--not once mentioning the victims of his crime (or the fact that perhaps his starting his crime spree again right after he was paroled the first time might tell us something about his "rehabilitation" chances.) As far as you're concerned, they're just an inconvenient detail in the fight to clear the name of this unfairly treated, wonderful person.

There's lots more I could look up, if you really want further proof...
 
Skeptic said:


(Shrug)

Well, we could start with your claims that the terrorist war of annihilation started by Arafat is not really his fault. Or your claim that he "chose peace" until the evil jews (I mean, *cough* israelies *cough*) angered him, ignoring the fact that he had repeatedly and publically stated the the so-called Oslo "peace" agreement are merely part of the "stage plan" for israel's destruction. Or your outrage at "innocent palestinians" killed by jews, even if unintentionally, while shrugging off suicide bombings of children, or the massacre of entire jewish neighborhoods, as merely part of the impersonal "circle of violence" that is really all the jews' (I mean, *cough* zionists *cough*) fault anyway.

As far as supporting Saddam, there is your constant criticisms of Bush's "warmongering", "evil secret motives" and "contempt for the international community", etc., while completely ignoring Saddam's obvious motive of staying in power as an all-powerful murderous dictator, or his little sojurns into Iran in the 1980s and Kuwait in the 1990s, let alone his massacre of hundreds of thousands of his own people. You don't care that Saddam is probably the greatest killer of innocent people alive today--as long as he is against the US, that's fine.

As for cuddling criminals, in your first post in this thread you started off by putting the word "criminal" used to described the executed person in quotes, clearly implying it's some sort of unfair designation, no doubt by the evil government. You then continued to post about how unfairly he was treated, why this is all a horrible disgrace, etc.--not once mentioning the victims of his crime (or the fact that perhaps his starting his crime spree again right after he was paroled the first time might tell us something about his "rehabilitation" chances.) As far as you're concerned, they're just an inconvenient detail in the fight to clear the name of this unfairly treated, wonderful person.

There's lots more I could look up, if you really want further proof...

strawman.
 

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