Texas bans abortion.

[Norman Alexander]

I thought we had sort of all agreed that it was alive. An ultrasound sadly sometimes determines that it has died.

I don’t think it’s a false dichotomy to say it’s either alive or dead. I vote for alive*.




*Which does not imply human being or personhood or inherent rights or what have you.

That's fine. But cancer cells are alive too. Very much so. As are most of the other cells in a human body.

And no, this is not an argument for "parasite". It's a comparison to point out that the Texas law is not really about any medical situation or even medical morals. It's about the primitive Middle Eastern culture, from which the Christian bible is evolved, of men controlling and owning women like cattle.

 

[Stacyhs]

I thought we had sort of all agreed that it was alive. An ultrasound sadly sometimes determines that it has died.

I don’t think it’s a false dichotomy to say it’s either alive or dead. I vote for alive*.




*Which does not imply human being or personhood or what have you.

I put the word in single quotes for a reason. Warbler said

Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
I would still say adoption is better than abortion. At least the child is alive.

I was saying I didn't see 'alive' in the same way as he was using it. It's not a "living child" at that stage to me. As previously stated, a tumor is 'alive' in the sense that it is growing and developing, but it's not a child. In biology, if something is not dead, it's 'alive'.

"living; being in a state in which the organs perform their functions; as, an animal or a plant which is alive."

 

[Stacyhs]

That's fine. But cancer cells are alive too. Very much so. As are most of the other cells in a human body.

And no, this is not an argument for "parasite". It's a comparison to point out that the Texas law is not really about any medical situation or even medical morals. It's about the primitive Middle Eastern culture, from which the Christian bible is evolved, of men controlling and owning women like cattle.

Now you've done it.

 

[slyjoe]

I thought we had sort of all stipulated that it was alive. An ultrasound sadly sometimes determines that it has died.

I don’t think it’s a false dichotomy to say it’s either alive or dead. I vote for alive*.



*Which does not imply human being or personhood or inherent rights or what have you.

I don't want to go down the parasite path, but that may be exactly the issue. See viruses - are they dead or alive? Viruses certainly seem like it would be a false dichotomy to say they are either dead or alive. They check some boxes, but not others.

I think an argument can be made that an early stage embryo is kind of in the same boat.

 

[Lurch]

What an unselfish position. "I'd rather kill this thing than allow someone else to raise it".

You just keep skipping over the point. Putting a woman through childbirth carries some risk. And there's the matter of the greater sense of loss after 9 months than after 2. All around it can be a tougher--if not deadly--ordeal.

As one guy to another. We have the luxury of not having to endure this process. And for an unwanted pregnancy, it must be hellish.Try to culturate some empathy beyond the embryo. A woman is much more than a walking uterus.

 

[Warbler]

I believe abbadon is referring to what happened in Ireland such as this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54693159

and this:

https://adoptionland.org/3806/philo...abies-sold-by-nuns-to-rich-american-families/

I don't even live in Ireland.

 

[Stacyhs]

You just keep skipping over the point. Putting a woman through childbirth carries some risk. And there's the matter of the greater sense of loss after 9 months than after 2. All around it can be a tougher--if not deadly--ordeal.

As one guy to another. We have the luxury of not having to endure this process. And for an unwanted pregnancy, it must be hellish.Try to culturate some empathy beyond the embryo. A woman is much more than a walking uterus.

This is true. At 2 months, the mother cannot physically feel the "baby", she doesn't look pregnant, etc. But during the third trimester, we can feel the baby move, kick, even hiccup inside us. We can even see the baby as it turns sometimes. It's become a 'person' to us emotionally.

And before anyone jumps on me for saying "baby", I'm doing it for the same reason almost everyone uses that term in everyday speech: it's easier than typing or saying "zygote, embryo, fetus". So if you're going to harp on that, just don't. We all know it for what it is.

 

[Warp12]

And before anyone jumps on me for saying "baby", I'm doing it for the same reason almost everyone uses that term in everyday speech

Very telling. And who made you the authority on "everyone"?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Very telling. And who made you the authority on "everyone"?

I don't see her claiming authority over anyone. Why do you?

 

[abaddon]

I don't even live in Ireland.

It is not just Ireland. Exactly how naive are you?

 

[Stacyhs]

I don't even live in Ireland.

But he does, I believe. He's obviously very emotional about it. This kind of thing has happened in the US, too. Mothers were told their babies had died at birth or shortly after and then they were sold to adoptive parents.

 

[Warp12]

This is true. At 2 months, the mother cannot physically feel the "baby", she doesn't look pregnant, etc. But during the third trimester, we can feel the baby move, kick, even hiccup inside us. We can even see the baby as it turns sometimes. It's become a 'person' to us emotionally.

Up until then, what is it to you?

 

[Warp12]

This is true. At 2 months, the mother cannot physically feel the "baby", she doesn't look pregnant, etc. But during the third trimester, we can feel the baby move, kick, even hiccup inside us. We can even see the baby as it turns sometimes. It's become a 'person' to us emotionally.

And before anyone jumps on me for saying "baby", I'm doing it for the same reason almost everyone uses that term in everyday speech: it's easier than typing or saying "zygote, embryo, fetus". So if you're going to harp on that, just don't. We all know it for what it is.

Have you ever had an abortion? And if so, how many? You don't have to answer. I am just trying to better understand your position. Sort of like the male/female thing.

 

[Lurch]

I would still say adoption is better than abortion. At least the child is alive.

Except in special cases, abortion occurs *before* there is a child. It must be less traumatic to be rid of a fingertip sized embryo soon after discovery of pregnancy than going through the full gestation process over many months, and then giving up an actual human being of one's own flesh.

Stop arguing ONLY for the potential person, and consider the actual, live person who is most impacted.

I get so goddamned frustrated with the drive to attach qualities to an embryo that are not there, and the bloody pious busybodies who feel the need to butt into a woman's most intimate and personal life. Especially when those buttinskis are men.

It really is a culture of the 'Karen' that the rabidly pro-life women botherers have subsumed into. They should just **** right off and get to mending their own miserable lives. Leave matters of pregnancy to the woman and her doctor. In other words, mind their own business.

Yeah, this makes me emotional. I see here an American Taliban.

 

[Stacyhs]

I don't see her claiming authority over anyone. Why do you?

Because this is what he does. All the time.

 

[acbytesla]

My comments italicised.

A person (man or woman) should have absolute autonomy over their own body, so long as allowing them that autonomy does not impact on the health or well-being of any other person, or put any other person or persons at risk.

My morality is that my personal choices with regard to my body trumps everyone else's morality. That means if I get a serious illness, I alone decide if and how I want to treat it, or not (unless of course, that illness creates a danger to others). If it becomes terminal, I alone choose how to proceed.

If I was a woman, I would still demand the same absolute autonomy over my body to decide what is right for me. I alone can choose to end my own pregnancy - My Body, My Choice! End of discussion.

NO faceless politician should ever have any say whatsoever in a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy if she so chooses.

Amen.

 

[Stacyhs]

Have you ever had an abortion? And if so, how many? You don't have to answer.

What part of my post would elicit such a question?

I am just trying to better understand your position. Sort of like the male/female thing.

No, you're not. It's obvious what you are doing and have been doing for quite some time. Stop it. It's pathetic.

 

[Stacyhs]

Up until then, what is it to you?

If you don't stop, I'm going to report you for harassment.

 

[Warbler]

It is. But you did not quote me, you copied my words and passed them off as your own. That is called lying and as far as I know, you mad religion has rules about that. Perhaps you have not read them.

what you originally said:

Great, so if any woman takes the appropriate, responsible action of considering that she cannot, for reasons financial, lack of a home, lack of a stable environment, lack of ability to care for the child, other, you favour abortion on the basis of that womans decision.

What I said:

I was only taking about situations where the only reasons for the abortion was lack of finances, home, stable environment, ability to care of the child.

slightly different wording. It is not plagiarism when don't in a simple forum post. I was talking about the conditions of when I thought adoption was appropriate. The conditions you brought up, of course it is going to resemble your post! Anyway, everyone can see your original post. I was not passing off your words as mine.

You absolutely do.

No, I do not. Again do not put words in my mouth. You don't know me and you don't know what I think, unless and until I tell you what I think.

Aborting an embryo or a fetus is horrific to you. Abandoning a living child to whatever fate is OK with you. Just so long as it has been born first. After that, who cares? Certainly not you. Your only interest is controlling women. You flat out told us so.

So were you lying then, or are you lying now?

no, abandoning a living child to whatever fate is not okay with with me. This is the last time I am going to do this. You are being ridiculous and I refuse to play along. enough.

 

[abaddon]

But he does, I believe. He's obviously very emotional about it. This kind of thing has happened in the US, too. Mothers were told their babies had died at birth or shortly after and then they were sold to adoptive parents.

Giveaway, it says so in plain text under my avatar.

No matter, here is his own churches groveling apology for their abuse.

https://urc.org.uk/latest-news/2908...-heartfelt-apology-to-survivors-of-abuse.html

Just wait. He will attempt to back out of that. Maryland? Not my state. Or some such nonsense.