Texas bans abortion.

[smartcooky]

I think it’s very difficult to boil questions of morality down to scientific facts.

No it isn't.

As John Adams once said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". Facts are facts, they are immutable and unarguable. They do not bend or reshape themselves to fit or accommodate the pleadings and emotional arguments of the religious or from non-religious moralists

It really is that simple!

 

[Stacyhs]

I think it’s very difficult to boil questions of morality down to scientific facts.

Not to imply that either side of this issue is inherently immoral. Just that people can come to different personal evaluations of right and wrong from the same set of facts. There are many things going on on this planet that seem profoundly wrong to me that others just casually do in their day to day lives. Philosophers have long pondered a rational basis for ethics and morality, and I don’t think they can even agree on that. Religion can play a huge part in someone’s morality, but hard core atheists wrestle with moral choices as well.

Here, from the same set of facts, some see abortion as wrong, some see denying a woman’s right to an abortion as wrong, and many, many are just trying to find a “least wrong” solution that does the least harm.

Not when those beliefs are directly contrary to science.

 

[acbytesla]

I think it’s very difficult to boil questions of morality down to scientific facts.

Not to imply that either side of this issue is inherently immoral. Just that people can come to different personal evaluations of right and wrong from the same set of facts. There are many things going on on this planet that seem profoundly wrong to me that others just casually do in their day to day lives. Philosophers have long pondered a rational basis for ethics and morality, and I don’t think they can even agree on that. Religion can play a huge part in someone’s morality, but hard core atheists wrestle with moral choices as well.

Here, from the same set of facts, some see abortion as wrong, some see denying a woman’s right to an abortion as wrong, and many, many are just trying to find a “least wrong” solution that does the least harm.

No it isn't.

As John Adams once said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". Facts are facts, they are immutable and unarguable. They do not bend or reshape themselves to fit or accommodate the pleadings and emotional arguments of the religious or from non-religious moralists

It really is that simple!

Religion is basically the practice of replacing facts with fiction. Nothing more than superstitious mumbo jumbo.

The vast majority of Americans are Christians and 95 percent of these Christians have read little more than a few verses from their holy book.

FYI: The Bible doesn't say that abortion is immoral. It doesn't even say that killing is immoral. (The commandment doesn't say Thou shall not kill. It says Thou shall not murder.) But the Bible does say that slavery is moral. It also says a parent can have their children stoned. It says that a rapist must marry its victim. It makes women property of their fathers and their husbands or the man the father sold her to.

Morality....sure...

 

[JoeMorgue]

I think it’s very difficult to boil questions of morality down to scientific facts.

That sounds a lot like "Can we pleeeeeasssssee stop pointing out any flaws, wrong facts, or outright lies in the opinions I randomly and arbitrarily define as 'morality?'"

I know I'm picking a fight with a LOT of people here but no you don't get to be intentionally (one might even say... proudly) wrong and go "But no this is different, it's a moral question!"

 

[mgidm86]

We would if the "pro-lifer" anti-abortion crowd were prepared to accept scientific facts rather go off on a fit of emotional pearl-clutching!

I know I was just getting a headach scrolling past it. It's annoying to read for a page and a half. Has nothing to do with me thinking it's a parasite or not. I don't care either way.

 

[mgidm86]

I believe mgidm86 was addressing that to those who keep bringing it up as an "OMG! How can you call a precious baby a parasite?" bit.

No I'm just sick of reading the discussion on it. I have no special love for babies LOL, call 'em parasites all you want. Let's just move on. That's all.

 

[acbytesla]

I know I was just getting a headach scrolling past it. It's annoying to read for a page and a half. Has nothing to do with me thinking it's a parasite or not. I don't care either way.

You don't care if women cannot make choices about their own health and welfare?

 

[Stacyhs]

No I'm just sick of reading the discussion on it. I have no special love for babies LOL, call 'em parasites all you want. Let's just move on. That's all.

I for one would gladly drop it if it wasn't constantly being thrown back at us by the "OMG! I'm so morally outraged!" contingent.

 

[mgidm86]

You don't care if women cannot make choices about their own health and welfare?

I am pro choice 100%. Just an annoying sidebar to have to read through. I dunno it annoyed me yesterday that's all. Read my post above yours.

 

[mgidm86]

I for one would gladly drop it if it wasn't constantly being thrown back at us by the "OMG! I'm so morally outraged!" contingent.

Okay that's cool carry on. Maybe yesterday was just a bad day I don't remember. I have no kids, don't want them, and don't care much for other peoples' babies either. "Wanna see my baby?" No, make it shut up.

Now that we're all clear let's get back to the little parasites.

 

[Stacyhs]

Okay that's cool carry on. Maybe yesterday was just a bad day I don't remember. I have no kids, don't want them, and don't care much for other peoples' babies either. "Wanna see my baby?" No, make it shut up.
Now that we're all clear let's get back to the little parasites.

That could be my daughter talking!

 

[catsmate]

I'm still waiting on a (non-troll) answer as to why women using abortion as birth control is any different then them using the pill or IUDs or condoms that isn't pure "But at an arbitrary point it's a baby because God put a soul in it" nonsense or pure semantics.

Hey, I'm still waiting for him (and the other anti-abortion posters) to tell me how much additional risk it's acceptable to force a pregnant woman to endure before termination is OK.
But hey, some questions are hard and have no facile answer......

 

[Warp12]

I am pro choice 100%.

100%? No limits! Third trimester abortions for everyone! Yay!

 

[Stacyhs]

100%? No limits! Third trimester abortions for everyone! Yay!

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/642626150e52c470fa.gif[/qimg]

 

[acbytesla]

100%? No limits! Third trimester abortions for everyone! Yay!

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/642626150e52c470fa.gif[/qimg]

If they choose that. Yes. But let's get to the facts.

According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, just over 1% of all abortions in the U.S. are performed after 21 weeks gestation, which is six weeks before the end of the second trimester. "Abortion later in the second trimester is very rare, and abortion in the third trimester is rarer still, accounting for less than one percent of abortions," the organization said on its website.

In Prager's words, the number of third trimester abortions is "virtually none. It's a vanishingly small number."

Basically the focus on third trimester abortions is a RED HERRING.

The tiny fraction of that 1 percent of all abortions that are done in the third trimester are usually done for some of the following reasons.

The fetus is likely to die before or right after birth due to anomalies like anencephaly — when a big portion of the brain, skull and scalp are missing.

A woman's life is threatened because of conditions like
placental abruption,
or when the placenta separates too soon from the uterus, this can be fatal, due to complications including blood loss, stroke, and septic shock.

Warp12. Is the fetus's life more important than the mother's?

 

[Warp12]

100%? No limits! Third trimester abortions for everyone! Yay!

If they choose that. Yes. But let's get to the facts.

Basically there is nothing you can say after that, that will validate your opinion.

As usual. Much like the "abortion has great benefits when it comes to population control" argument that you promote.

This is why I can't take your arguments seriously.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Basically the focus on third trimester abortions is a RED HERRING.

Everything in this discussion is a red herring because only one side has a point (or has a point they will admit to having.)

There's a term for that but we aren't allowed to use it.

 

[acbytesla]

Basically there is nothing you can say after that, that will validate your opinion.

Really? The fact that late term abortions are almost non-existent and when the very minuscule fraction of them are performed they are almost always done because of deadly health conditions doesn't validate my opinion?

My question is, does it validate yours?

As usual. Much like the "abortion has great benefits when it comes to population control" argument that you promote.

This is why I can't take your arguments seriously.

Aaaah!! Opinions based on the realities of population growth can be ignored by putting one's head in the sand?

 

[Norman Alexander]

"jUsT drOP the ParasITE thinG!"

I notice no calls for the anti-choice side to "just drop" calling a clump of a dozen cells "a baby."

There are probably far more human cells in a single wart than there are in an embryo at 6 weeks. Yet we freeze or chemically remove warts off our skin without a qualm.

 

[Warp12]

There are probably far more human cells in a single wart than there are in an embryo at 6 weeks. Yet we freeze or chemically remove warts off our skin without a qualm.

Uhh, ok. How about at 23 weeks?

That's not emotionalizing anything. Those are facts. A <24 week gestation fetus is only partially formed, feeds off the host, and it cannot live outside the host body. That's a parasite.

People really stretch around here, to be part of the "group".