Tests Prove Mediums Really Can Contact Dead

[CFLarsen]

Well, this was addressed to me, and I -do- need to respond.

You -do- need to respond, yes.

To begin with, I never said I thought the test was sloppy. I think it is flawed, david, and that what I see as being design flaws are intentional. I think Randi's intention was absolutely to get Sylvia to agree on a test of cold reading rather than a test of mediumship. I think everything else I've criticized (and that's almost all parts of it) were thought through to support that goal.

But you completely leave out that Sylvia agreed to the test. You do not decide what should be tested, so your whole string of complaints are completely irrelevant.

I do not think Randi is a man who would be careless with a million dollars and the PR it involves--nor do I think he is someone who would leave important JREF matters like the Million Dollar Challenge up to chance. I think the flaws are planned and, in that, are very revealing.

Nice: Instead of criticizing Sylvia for not living up to her word (again, she accepted the challenge, so it's really none of your concern how it is designed), you cast doubt on Randi's motives.

But...we all disagree...so....onward with Robertson and Roy.

No, no...you said you could design a better test, and you said you were ready to write it and submit it to SkepticReport. What happened to that?

 

[davidhorman]

To begin with, I never said I thought the test was sloppy. I think it is flawed, david, and that what I see as being design flaws are intentional. I think Randi's intention was absolutely to get Sylvia to agree on a test of cold reading rather than a test of mediumship. I think everything else I've criticized (and that's almost all parts of it) were thought through to support that goal.

So Randi deliberately flawed it by making it incredibly easy to pass (I think TheBoyPaj showed it was something like 1/6 for passing it by chance)? And by introducing factors that would unblind it to the participants, and therefore (deliberately or otherwise) again skewing it greatly in Sylvia's favour?

Why would he do that?

I think he gave the protocol -very- careful thought before suggesting it to Sylvia. To do otherwise would have been sloppy and irresponsible.

Should I read the above to mean that he very carefully thought about making it flawed/intentionally sloppy? That's not one of these sarcastic baiting questions, by the way - I'm just really not sure what you meant by it now.

David

 

[CPL593H]

For Voidx

you can order the papers or the whole SPR journal from the SPR, by email or phone, for a couple of pounds. You don't have to be a member. Theres nothing on teh site about it, but i posted the link for contact details etc. The jan 04 journal is the one with R/R paper 3 in it, and also a report by Keen & Playfair about investigations into the poole murdercase, involving the mediumship of Christine Holohan.

Also thank you for your response which i agree with, more or less. I was beginning to lose hope of any reasonable replies on here because most of the sceptical posters seem a tad hostile... just a tad. Not really a complaint, or a moan. But anyway, thanks.

 

[CPL593H]

OK i couldn't resist any longer. I just want to comment on two of CFLarsen's points in the post addressed to Clancie.

"But you completely leave out that Sylvia agreed to the test."

If she had not agreed, it would be a very bad move for her in terms of her own reputation and for the credibility of mediums everywhere. Perhaps it would have been wise, though.

"...you cast doubt on Randi's motives."

Shock horror! would that be the first time someone has cast doubt on Randi's motives? i don't think so. He makes a lot of money - his entire living - from being a sceptic (actually a skeptic, but never mind), and I'm sure he doesn't want to be proven wrong after all these years. Nor do I think he is particularly keen to part with his million. He is known for suspicious manipulation, and suspected experiment rigging, like other famous sceptics, such as Wiseman. No surprise then that one thing they all have in common is their source of income.
Is the experiment deliberately rigged for failure? I would not put it past him. Beyond that I won't comment. I'll leave the battle to Clancie, who is one of the only people making any amount of sense. Sorry for the rant but i was bursting to say it. Randi, in my eyes, is a fraud.

 

[CFLarsen]

If she had not agreed, it would be a very bad move for her in terms of her own reputation and for the credibility of mediums everywhere. Perhaps it would have been wise, though.

Disagree. She knew Randi was going to be there, so of course she knew that it was a possibility - almost a certainty - that Randi would suggest a test.

Ergo, she could simply have said: "No, sorry, I don't do spur-of-the-moment agreements". Which would have been quite acceptable. Sylvia, OTOH, was so confident, that she agreed - simply because she knew that "the story gets the frontpage, but the retraction gets mentioned on page 29, at the bottom - if at all!"

And she was right. Larry King has done nothing to follow up on his own word.

Shock horror! would that be the first time someone has cast doubt on Randi's motives? i don't think so. He makes a lot of money - his entire living - from being a sceptic (actually a skeptic, but never mind), and I'm sure he doesn't want to be proven wrong after all these years.

From what I have learned, having met the man several times, I would say that he would revel in the fact that he was part of the discovery of something as truly ground-shaking as a paranormal phenomenon being proved.

Nor do I think he is particularly keen to part with his million.

It's not "his" million. There is no way he can ever get to that money.

He is known for suspicious manipulation, and suspected experiment rigging, like other famous sceptics, such as Wiseman.

Whoa, back up! He is known for being a world-class magician, a "breed" who manipulates, rigs and generally cheats the public - but they do it in order to perpetrate a magic trick. Not to perpetrate the notion that they have paranormal abilities.

I must insist that you provide evidence that Wiseman - not a professional magician, I believe - has manipulated and/or rigged experiments. Put up or shut up.

No surprise then that one thing they all have in common is their source of income.
Is the experiment deliberately rigged for failure? I would not put it past him. Beyond that I won't comment. I'll leave the battle to Clancie, who is one of the only people making any amount of sense. Sorry for the rant but i was bursting to say it. Randi, in my eyes, is a fraud.

That, my friend, you will have to back up with evidence. Put up or shut up.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

I do not think Randi is a man who would be careless with a million dollars and the PR it involves--nor do I think he is someone who would leave important JREF matters like the Million Dollar Challenge up to chance. I think the flaws are planned and, in that, are very revealing.

...snip...

What, if the flaws were "planned" do you think it "reveals"?

And has Randi answered any of your points? I'm assuming of course you've dropped him an email about it.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

. He makes a lot of money - his entire living - from being a sceptic (actually a skeptic, but never mind), and I'm sure he doesn't want to be proven wrong after all these years.

...snip.../B]

How much does Randi make a year? It's something I've wondered about in the past but never had the cheek to drop him an email about.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by CPL593H

He is known for suspicious manipulation, and suspected experiment rigging,

Project Alpha comes to mind.

And, Darat,

I don't know how much Randi makes, but JREF makes about $50,000 in interest each year from the million.

re: emailing him. Yes, why don't I. I'll let you know what he says.

 

[Darat]

I don't know how much Randi makes, but JREF makes about $50,000 in interest each year from the million.

re: emailing him. Yes, why don't I. I'll let you know what he says.

Well let’s hope he answers!

As for the money, it's not so the JREF (their books are open for inspection I believe) it's Randi I was curious about and since CPL593H knows I was hoping he would share his info with us. (Yes it is being nosey).

 

[CPL593H]

OK. First off, there is no solid evidence for fraud - if there were, you would know about it, and Randi's carreer would have been most probably ruined by now. Ditto for Wiseman. (btw Wiseman is a professional magician, as far as i know. I'm sure he has some title in the UK magic circle). Wiseman had a TV program in the UK which i cant remember the name of, which was in essence an interactive show to test the psychic ability of the viewers. It did get out that the show had been rigged to prevent a positive outcome, although whether it would have got one is doubtful, owing to the nature of the show. How much truth there is in that, I can't say, but if you remember, I said that they were known for suspicious actions. As for Randi, knowing some people who have worked with him and who have spoken to me about it... I cant mention names and i'm not interested in trying to prove anything. I really do not want to get into that one. However, what he shows by his 'humorous' and fierce rubbishing of anything he cannot explain is plain ignorance, and extreme arrogance. And why not? He's got to make a living.

 

[Darat]

Name of the TV programme at least?

And any chance of letting us know how much Randi makes?

 

[CPL593H]

'makes a lot of money' does not mean the same as 'he makes $X but i'm not going to tell you how much'. Just for the record.

However, his work makes him his living. thats all that needs to be said. I'm sure he makes enough money, or he would have opted out and gone for chartered accountancy. He's come too far now to admit that he was wrong for all this time - it would be damaging for his career. lets face it, thats pretty clear. It would make a mockery of him, for all these years of fierce conviction and arrogance.

 

[Darat]

'makes a lot of money' does not mean the same as 'he makes $X but i'm not going to tell you how much'. Just for the record.

However, his work makes him his living. thats all that needs to be said. I'm sure he makes enough money, or he would have opted out and gone for chartered accountancy. He's come too far now to admit that he was wrong for all this time - it would be damaging for his career. lets face it, thats pretty clear. It would make a mockery of him, for all these years of fierce conviction and arrogance.

So it was just pure speculation and in the above you still can't stop speculating.

You have no idea if Randi makes a million dollars a year or ten dollars do you? For all you know Randi may be on food stamps and does what he does because of his personal convictions. He may even have a second job as a chartered accountant to pay the bills. You have no idea.

Yet despite not having any idea you were confident enough to say (highlight by me) " He makes a lot of money - his entire living - from being a sceptic ...snip..." and then in the above post couldn’t even be honest enough to say “Sorry I just made it up”.

Here you are trying to make allegations about the integrity of others whilst you are just making things up – now that is ironic.

Whilst you can only allege that Randi and others are dishonest, you've just provided the evidence that you are dishonest.

 

[Loki]

CPL593H,

As I have said before, I am all for the R/R methods.

I agree. The proposed protocol is very strong.

Who else has recently, is planning to in the near future or is currently doing any BETTER resarch with mediums?

The University fo Arizona?? (just kidding)

The jan 04 journal is the one with R/R paper 3 in it

Since it appears you have read this article, any chance you can post your poinion, and a few quotes of the key points? I'm still waiting for it to appear in the public archives (not interested in paying at this stage).

If she had not agreed, it would be a very bad move for her in terms of her own reputation and for the credibility of mediums everywhere.

I also link Sylvia to the "credibilty of mediums everywhere". Personally, it's a lose-lose situation for mediumship.

OK. First off, there is no solid evidence for fraud

I'd agree with you there.

It did get out that the show had been rigged to prevent a positive outcome,...

Possibly true, I guess. Any chance you can offer some details of what "get out" means in this sentence? Public statement by staffer? Or rumour generated by failed medium, perhaps?

How much truth there is in that, I can't say...

But you feel compelled to bring it up anyway. Thanks.

..., but if you remember, I said that they were known for suspicious actions.

Any chance you can expand upon "known" in that sentence? Know by whom, from what source, with what support?

I'm sure he makes enough money, or he would have opted out and gone for chartered accountancy.

Okay, so you clearly have no information on how much he makes, but you're sure it's "enough". Would you guess that it's more than Sylvia? More than Colin Fry? More than John Edward?

He's come too far now to admit that he was wrong for all this time - it would be damaging for his career.

All a medium has to do is deliver the goods. Set up a proper protocol, generate positive results, submit it to the JREF (with attendant publicity - an appearance on LKL for example) and take Randi on head to head. Either he refuses the test, and take the massive publicity 'hit', or he agrees and the medium walks away with the money. Where's the problem? If the R&R protocol is as tight as it seems, and they can find a single medium (or group of mediums, I guess) that can reliably generate positive results, then Randi MUST test them to maintian his public profile.

 

[CFLarsen]

Project Alpha comes to mind.

Please tell us what you know about Project Alpha.

I don't know how much Randi makes, but JREF makes about $50,000 in interest each year from the million.

re: emailing him. Yes, why don't I. I'll let you know what he says.

Yeah, why don't you. Here's a free tip: Email Linda instead. Ask if she will tell you how much of the 50K goes to salaries, rent/mortgage, electricity, water, garbage, taxes, etc.

The JREF is not a huge organization. When I was there (passing through) I had a hard time finding the place. Randi wasn't in, the bum, but I got to see the place from the outside anyway. I could walk around the place in less than a minute. Less than 30 seconds, actually.

It's tiny!

OK. First off, there is no solid evidence for fraud - if there were, you would know about it, and Randi's carreer would have been most probably ruined by now. Ditto for Wiseman. (btw Wiseman is a professional magician, as far as i know. I'm sure he has some title in the UK magic circle). Wiseman had a TV program in the UK which i cant remember the name of, which was in essence an interactive show to test the psychic ability of the viewers. It did get out that the show had been rigged to prevent a positive outcome, although whether it would have got one is doubtful, owing to the nature of the show. How much truth there is in that, I can't say, but if you remember, I said that they were known for suspicious actions. As for Randi, knowing some people who have worked with him and who have spoken to me about it... I cant mention names and i'm not interested in trying to prove anything. I really do not want to get into that one. However, what he shows by his 'humorous' and fierce rubbishing of anything he cannot explain is plain ignorance, and extreme arrogance. And why not? He's got to make a living.

Whoa! "No solid evidence of fraud", yet you have the audacity to state: "Randi, in my eyes, is a fraud"?

You, my friend, have just revealed yourself as a vicious gossip-monger. Since you haven't "put up", I suggest you "shut up".

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Randi wasn't in, the bum,

...snip...

He must have been out packing bags at the supermarket to help make ends meet...

 

[Ed]

5% on $1,000,000? With no risk to the principle?

Where?