• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Terrorist Attack in Spain - Over 60 dead

Bluegill said:
As far as the van with the detonators and the Arabic tapes, it seems like very inconclusive evidence. I bet it's not awfully hard to find a company that does demolition or excavation work, using explosives, that has either Arab ownership or at least a few Arab employees. If you had searched all vehicles in a three-block radius after the WTC went down, I bet you'd find Bibles, audio tapes in Arabic, video tapes in Spanish, love letters in Hindi...

That and just about anything electronic can be (and probably has been) described as a "detonator". A digital watch, a scrap of copper wire and a AAA battery lying loose around the floor of someone's car could well turn into a "detonator" by the time the media had finished with it.
 
It seems the major opposition party, the PSOE, has started to criticize the government, they say they think they may be keeping information about the authors of the massacre. I don't like this at all. This will sound very cold, but I hope it's ETA (that's in part the reason for which I've defended that possibility in this thread) and not Al Qaeda. If it's Al Qaeda I'm afraid it can divide the country again, and that's the last thing we want with something like this. If it's ETA, it would only bring everyone together and I think it would be a really stupid thing for the band to do, and one that could be the beginning of their end.
 
Apologies if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but weren't the vast majority of Spanish people opposite to their goverment's resolution to support the war in Iraq ? Had there been any relative polls at the time ?
 
El Greco said:
Apologies if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but weren't the vast majority of Spanish people opposite to their goverment's resolution to support the war in Iraq ? Had there been any relative polls at the time ?

Yes, at least 90% of the population was against it. Millions of people participated in demonstrations and there was quite a lot of activity (my university was filled with protests) It's quite interesting, because the government party had (has) an absolute majority. That means that even those who voted them were against the war. Said that, I want to add what I have already said: I don't like the actual government and I didn't like the idea of going to war in Irak, but this is not the time for us Spaniards to attack the governement because of that. I think that sentences like "Had we not gone to war with Urak, this wouldn't have happened" are simply wrong. If anything, should this be Al Qaeda's fault, this is a reason to attack them, not to sit in a corner hoping it won't get to us, because a nation that sacrifices its freedom for its security deserves neither.
 
Lothian said:
A few years ago the Natural Law party (Trancendental Meditation crowd) decided to lower the crime rate in New York. For a month they meditated and hopped up and down. At the end they announced their actions had directly led to a 27% reduction in crime. When it was pointed out that crime during the month was actually up on the previous years figures the answers “Yes, but crime was 27% down on what it would have been if we had not meditated.”

Tony Blair and George Bush tell us that the world is now a safer place. After the worst terrorist attack in Europe (whoever was responsible) what is the difference between the claims of the Natural Law party and the two world leaders ?

You really asking what the difference is? Or are you just being flippant?

The Actions of the Bush Admin:
Code:
1. Bush has increased domestic air security to unprecedented levels.
     a) hardened cockpit doors
     b) armed sky marshalls
     c) armed pilots
     d) background checks on airport employees
     e) new airspace restrictions over major cities and events
      f) more intensive passenger/baggage screening

2. Creation of the Homeland Security Department
     a) close coordination of law enforcement, intelligence, immigration control and military
         organisations.
          1) interorganisational database sharing/interfacing
          2) consolidation of federal offices/elimination of unneeded bureaucracy 
     b) coordination with CDC for improvement of hospitals and other facilities, and training of first 
         responders, and other health professionals in responding to biological/chemical attacks
         should they occur.

3. Prosecution of a war against international terrorists and the nations that harbor them.
     a) Preventing terror attacks in the US via the efforts of the new Homeland Security Department.
     b) Invasion of Afghanistan (homebase of Al Qaeda)
     c) Coalition building:
List available @ whitehouse.gov:
Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Australia
Azerbaijan
Bulgaria
Colombia
Costa Rica
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Rwanda
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
South Korea
Spain
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States
Uzbekistan
Code:
     4) Coordination of anti-terrorism efforts worldwide.
           a) Pakistan
           b) Libya
           c) Iran*
           d) Indonesia
           e) Saudi Arabia
           f) Yemen
           g) Israel
           h) Egypt

 5) Invasion of Iraq (rogue state, sponser/promoter of various terrorist elements)

 6) Isolation/monitoring of suspected existing terrorist sponsor nations.
          a) Syria
          b) N. Korea
          c) Iran*

[i]*(Iran seems to be playing both sides of the field these days.)[/i]
 
7) Passage of the Patriot Act into law, allowing broader power to federal law enforcement
         agencies in investigation into, and prevention of terrorism within the US.

The Actions of the Natural Law Party (Trancendental Meditation Crowd):

1.) Meditation and hopping up and down for one month.

2.) Plainly spurious claim of success.


...and so, this is the answer to your question:
Lothian said:
Tony Blair and George Bush tell us that the world is now a safer place. After the worst terrorist attack in Europe (whoever was responsible) what is the difference between the claims of the Natural Law party and the two world leaders ?

...that is IF your question was actually serious. :rolleyes:

-z
 
Graham said:


If you ask certain posters around here, their answer will be that there hasn't been an attack on the mainland United States since the War on Terror began.

That will be sufficient answer for them.

Graham

By "certain posters" Graham means me. In our original conversation about the effectiveness of the WOT in preventing terror attacks, Graham was of the opinion that ANY attack at any level means that the WOT is not effectively limiting the scope of terrorism, and in some cases increasing the likelyhood of terrorism. If this attack actually ends up being the work of Al Qaeda he'll at least have more percieved ammunition for his argument.

However, no one ever said that the WOT would end ALL terrorism. Our discussion Graham, was also limited to US targets worldwide (since one would expect that since the WOT is being led by America, that therefore America should be target #1) In this respect the attack in Spain cannot count in our previous argument since GWB has no direct control of Spanish internal security.

-z
 
rikzilla said:


By "certain posters" Graham means me. In our original conversation about the effectiveness of the WOT in preventing terror attacks, Graham was of the opinion that ANY attack at any level means that the WOT is not effectively limiting the scope of terrorism, and in some cases increasing the likelyhood of terrorism. If this attack actually ends up being the work of Al Qaeda he'll at least have more percieved ammunition for his argument.

However, no one ever said that the WOT would end ALL terrorism. Our discussion Graham, was also limited to US targets worldwide (since one would expect that since the WOT is being led by America, that therefore America should be target #1) In this respect the attack in Spain cannot count in our previous argument since GWB has no direct control of Spanish internal security.

-z

So in essence, you are agreeing that as long as there are no more attacks on US targets, the war on terror can be counted as a success?

The WOT was not billed as "protection for US targets" it was billed as a war on terror the implication being that terror would be engaged and fought and presumably defeated.

Are you now contending that "broadening the scope of islamic terrorism to include countries previously untroubled by it but at least distracting their attention from the US" counts as a victory?

Can you see how this attitude would be percieved as some what inconsiderate, to say the least, of other nations in the world? Especially when the other nation in question has been one of the more stalwart supporters of your various military adventures?

Graham
 
Graham said:


So in essence, you are agreeing that as long as there are no more attacks on US targets, the war on terror can be counted as a success?

The WOT was not billed as "protection for US targets" it was billed as a war on terror the implication being that terror would be engaged and fought and presumably defeated.

Are you now contending that "broadening the scope of islamic terrorism to include countries previously untroubled by it but at least distracting their attention from the US" counts as a victory?

Can you see how this attitude would be percieved as some what inconsiderate, to say the least, of other nations in the world? Especially when the other nation in question has been one of the more stalwart supporters of your various military adventures?

Graham

You're taking the term "war" too literally (or you're proposefully obfuscating - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...).

Think of the "war on terror" like the "war on crime" or the "war on drugs".

The target will indeed be engaged and fought, but victory is won when a difference is achieved where, for example, crimes are stopped before victims are hurt, or drugs are stopped before they reach the users.

The "war on terror" is being won if any terrorists are being stopped before they can execute their attacks.
 
Kodiak said:


You're taking the term "war" too literally (or you're proposefully obfuscating - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...).

Think of the "war on terror" like the "war on crime" or the "war on drugs".

The target will indeed be engaged and fought, but victory is won when a difference is achieved where, for example, crimes are stopped before victims are hurt, or drugs are stopped before they reach the users.

The "war on terror" is being won if any terrorists are being stopped before they can execute their attacks.

Kodiak, I wouldn't even know how to spell "obfusticate" ;)

Where is the evidence that the war is being won or is likely to be won at any point in the future (again, much like the war on drugs, eh?)

Where is the evidence that more attacks are being prevented than before the WOT or that more terrorists are being stopped? The attacks continue, don't they?

Spain, for instance, never had a terror attack of this magnitude befre the WOT (AFAIK) and certainly not from an outside group like Al-Q (if indeed they are responsible for this attack).

In the case of Spain, then, the WOT is clearly being lost, no?

Graham
 
Just to add that one would get the impression from Kodiak and Rikzilla that nothing was being done to combat terrorism before the WOT and that no terrorist plots were ever foiled before GW jumped up on to his white horse and rode out to teach those injuns a lessun.

If you want to show that the WOT is being won, you need to show not that some victories are being achiveved but that more victories are being achieved than before.

Graham
 
Graham said:


So in essence, you are agreeing that as long as there are no more attacks on US targets, the war on terror can be counted as a success?
Yeah, I'd go for that shorter-term from the US perspective. As Bush has mentioned, longer-term each country will be required to declare and demonstrate "with you, or against you".


Can you see how this attitude would be percieved as some what inconsiderate, to say the least, of other nations in the world? Especially when the other nation in question has been one of the more stalwart supporters of your various military adventures?

Graham
Your choice: Islamo-fascists and all other terrorists, or the USA & Friends. I predict your attempts to remain "neutral" are not going to cut it.

We lost 3000 folks. I wonder what we will do if any terrorist group accomplishes a Big One and we lose on US soil hundreds of thousands or millions. ( ;) back at 'ya.)
 
Graham said:


So in essence, you are agreeing that as long as there are no more attacks on US targets, the war on terror can be counted as a success?
Nope. Never said such a thing. I said that GWB's policies on Homeland Security, including some elements of the WOT can be counted a success. The overall WOT will not be a "success" until the rest of the civilised world joins in and crushes international terrorism where ever it appears. (The WOT therefore may go on forever...or until the threat is minimized to the point that continued military involvement is no longer necessary.)

The WOT was not billed as "protection for US targets" it was billed as a war on terror the implication being that terror would be engaged and fought and presumably defeated.
Who cares what it was "billed as"?? Why don't you look at what it objectively is? A good offense is generally considered the best defense. For instance,...let's say you live in a good neighborhood. No crime, good neighbors. Why then should you spend tax money on police protection? Of course you do know that your good neighborhood would soon suffer crime once the word got out that it was unprotected. But right now there is no actual proof this would happen! :rolleyes: This seems to be the extend of your argument against GWB's comprehensive national security policies. The rest of America is thankfully not going to buy that.

Are you now contending that "broadening the scope of islamic terrorism to include countries previously untroubled by it but at least distracting their attention from the US" counts as a victory?
No. What the hell ever gave you that idea?

Can you see how this attitude would be percieved as some what inconsiderate, to say the least, of other nations in the world? Especially when the other nation in question has been one of the more stalwart supporters of your various military adventures?

Graham

Well, IF that were my position it would indeed be inconsiderate, etc... But you are beating up an obvious strawman. IF you find anyone who actually holds these repulsive views I'll help you beat him up....but right now all you have is a scarecrow. :confused:

-z
 
So in essence, you are agreeing that as long as there are no more attacks on US targets, the war on terror can be counted as a success?

No, but even if he was, it would certainly be a good measure to its success in the USA.

Are you now contending that "broadening the scope of islamic terrorism to include countries previously untroubled by it but at least distracting their attention from the US" counts as a victory?

If a burglar keeps robbing my shop, and then I put a lock on the door and he starts robbing another shop, by your definition all I did was "broaden the scope of the burglar to include shops previously untroubled by burglaries", so it did nothing positive; I should have left the store unlocked and continue to suffer the burglaries so as t not "broaden the scope of the burglar.

In reality, of course, putting a lock on the door is a victory for the store owner: it frustrated the burglar, forcing him to look for other, less important tagets in his eyes. It is at least partial victory: there is at least one shop, his preferred shop, that the burglar can't rob. The point now is to make the other shops burglar-proof as well.

Similarly, if the terrorists like the attack the USA and now cannot, then the war on terror won at least a partial victory: it denied them their most important target. Sure, now they'll try for less important targets if they can; but they have been at least partially defeated. The point now is to make sure that they are defeated elsewhere as well, until they have no targets left (at least ideally).

Can you see how this attitude would be percieved as some what inconsiderate, to say the least, of other nations in the world?

Indeed so; in the same way other women might worry that if a rapist's favorite victim has bought a gun, he might start raping other women; or that other shop owners might worry that improved security in the constantly-robbed shop next door might mean the robber might try to rob them as well.

But the only "inconsideration" here is that the USA refuses to continue to be the "designated victim". What right do other nations have to demand the USA remain in this position in the first place? Why right have they to demand the USA should remain the terrorists' favorite target just for other countries' temporary benefit?

If there is no right to demand a raped woman let herself be violated so that the rapes won't "spread" to others (and there isn't of course), there is no right to demand the USA let herself be attacked so that the attacks won't "spread" to others.

In addition, quite apart from all moral considerations, demanding the US remain a "designated victim" for terrorists out of "consideration" is amazingly short-sighted. Experience shows that fighting agression requires a united effort, and that thinking it is the "other guy's problem" means that it would quickly become your own. Quite the opposite of apart from pacifying the agressor, his success against someone else merely means he becomes stronger and more likely to attack you.

If only Chechoslovakia was more inconsiderate and did everything it could to drag England and France into the war in 1938! Hitler would likely have been defeated there and then, and all of history would have been different.

Your attitude--"How dare you try to defeat the agressor! As long as it attacks YOU, it might not have attack ME!"--is the epitome of cowardly, spineless appeasement. Not only is it morally despicable (despite your attempt to take the moral high ground), it is practicaly stupidity.
 
rikzilla said:
Nope. Never said such a thing. I said that GWB's policies on Homeland Security, including some elements of the WOT can be counted a success. The overall WOT will not be a "success" until the rest of the civilised world joins in and crushes international terrorism where ever it appears. (The WOT therefore may go on forever...or until the threat is minimized to the point that continued military involvement is no longer necessary.)

So you concede that the WOT is, in large part at least, a failure then? Oh but it's not America's fault, it's the fault of all those other nations that just let international terrorism go unpunished.

Who cares what it was "billed as"?? Why don't you look at what it objectively is? A good offense is generally considered the best defense. For instance,...let's say you live in a good neighborhood. No crime, good neighbors. Why then should you spend tax money on police protection? Of course you do know that your good neighborhood would soon suffer crime once the word got out that it was unprotected. But right now there is no actual proof this would happen! :rolleyes: This seems to be the extend of your argument against GWB's comprehensive national security policies. The rest of America is thankfully not going to buy that.

I don't think you're in any position to tell me to look at it objectively. The WOT gives you such a Captain-America-freedom-and-justice-for-all hard on you are utterly blind to the downside.

Let's say you do live in a good neighbour hood. Even in good beighbourhoods there is crime, sometimes terrible crimes occur. Let's say there's a murder down the street - a particularly heinous one with lot's blood and screaming.

Next thing, the owner of the house the murder was in starts stomping all round the street, breaking down people's doors and hauling off their kids. A few of the neighbours are on his side, the rest are too weak to stand up to him and besides, he's doing it all in the name of preventing more murders - and who could argue with that?

Of course, his own family are worst off - he starts keeping them locked in their rooms and in a constant state of paranoia about the world outside.

How about that story?

And how about this logical fallacy - false dichotomy. There are more options for the world than (a) All guns blazing gung-ho cowboy War on Terror and (b) doing nothing and allowing us all be murdered in our beds by terrorists.

Sadly, you and the rest of America probably are not going to buy that.


No. What the hell ever gave you that idea?

Well it was this little statement, actually:

However, no one ever said that the WOT would end ALL terrorism. Our discussion Graham, was also limited to US targets worldwide (since one would expect that since the WOT is being led by America, that therefore America should be target #1) In this respect the attack in Spain cannot count in our previous argument since GWB has no direct control of Spanish internal security.

I think my translation was pretty good.


Well, IF that were my position it would indeed be inconsiderate, etc... But you are beating up an obvious strawman. IF you find anyone who actually holds these repulsive views I'll help you beat him up....but right now all you have is a scarecrow. :confused:

-z

Can you demonstrate that the war on terror has caused more good than harm?

Can you explain how your stance of "no attacks on US targets is evidence that the WOT is workng" is not repulsive and inconsiderate?

Can you tell me how to stop the stuffing falling out of this scarecrow when I hit it - it stinks and I think it may be rotten..

;)

Graham
 
Skeptic said:
So in essence, you are agreeing that as long as there are no more attacks on US targets, the war on terror can be counted as a success?

No, but even if he was, it would certainly be a good measure to its success in the USA.

Are you now contending that "broadening the scope of islamic terrorism to include countries previously untroubled by it but at least distracting their attention from the US" counts as a victory?

If a burglar keeps robbing my shop, and then I put a lock on the door and he starts robbing another shop, by your definition all I did was "broaden the scope of the burglar to include shops previously untroubled by burglaries", so it did nothing positive; I should have left the store unlocked and continue to suffer the burglaries so as t not "broaden the scope of the burglar.

In reality, of course, putting a lock on the door is a victory for the store owner: it frustrated the burglar, forcing him to look for other, less important tagets in his eyes. It is at least partial victory: there is at least one shop, his preferred shop, that the burglar can't rob. The point now is to make the other shops burglar-proof as well.

Similarly, if the terrorists like the attack the USA and now cannot, then the war on terror won at least a partial victory: it denied them their most important target. Sure, now they'll try for less important targets if they can; but they have been at least partially defeated. The point now is to make sure that they are defeated elsewhere as well, until they have no targets left (at least ideally).

Can you see how this attitude would be percieved as some what inconsiderate, to say the least, of other nations in the world?

Indeed so; in the same way other women might worry that if a rapist's favorite victim has bought a gun, he might start raping other women; or that other shop owners might worry that improved security in the constantly-robbed shop next door might mean the robber might try to rob them as well.

But the only "inconsideration" here is that the USA refuses to continue to be the "designated victim". What right do other nations have to demand the USA remain in this position in the first place? Why right have they to demand the USA should remain the terrorists' favorite target just for other countries' temporary benefit?

If there is no right to demand a raped woman let herself be violated so that the rapes won't "spread" to others (and there isn't of course), there is no right to demand the USA let herself be attacked so that the attacks won't "spread" to others.

In addition, quite apart from all moral considerations, demanding the US remain a "designated victim" for terrorists out of "consideration" is amazingly short-sighted. Experience shows that fighting agression requires a united effort, and that thinking it is the "other guy's problem" means that it would quickly become your own. Quite the opposite of apart from pacifying the agressor, his success against someone else merely means he becomes stronger and more likely to attack you.

If only Chechoslovakia was more inconsiderate and did everything it could to drag England and France into the war in 1938! Hitler would likely have been defeated there and then, and all of history would have been different.

Your attitude--"How dare you try to defeat the agressor! As long as it attacks YOU, it might not have attack ME!"--is the epitome of cowardly, spineless appeasement. Not only is it morally despicable (despite your attempt to take the moral high ground), it is practicaly stupidity.

IMO, it's only necessary to repeat one little phrase from this rant:

less important targets

Nice. Reeeeeal classy, Skeptic. I suspect there might be a few people in Madrid who would disagree with your analysis.

What happened to "SOMOS TODOS ESPAÑOLES" all of a sudden?

Graham
 
Graham said:


Kodiak, I wouldn't even know how to spell "obfusticate" ;)

Where is the evidence that the war is being won or is likely to be won at any point in the future (again, much like the war on drugs, eh?)

Where is the evidence that more attacks are being prevented than before the WOT or that more terrorists are being stopped? The attacks continue, don't they?

Spain, for instance, never had a terror attack of this magnitude befre the WOT (AFAIK) and certainly not from an outside group like Al-Q (if indeed they are responsible for this attack).

In the case of Spain, then, the WOT is clearly being lost, no?

Graham

Please check these out:

Managing the War on Terror

Marines claim terror attacks thwarted in Africa

Are we winning the War on Terror?

Counterterrorisn Coordinator claims continuing success of Global War on Terror
 
Skeptic said:
So in essence, you are agreeing that as long as there are no more attacks on US targets, the war on terror can be counted as a success?

No, but even if he was, it would certainly be a good measure to its success in the USA.

Are you now contending that "broadening the scope of islamic terrorism to include countries previously untroubled by it but at least distracting their attention from the US" counts as a victory?

If a burglar keeps robbing my shop, and then I put a lock on the door and he starts robbing another shop, by your definition all I did was "broaden the scope of the burglar to include shops previously untroubled by burglaries", so it did nothing positive; I should have left the store unlocked and continue to suffer the burglaries so as t not "broaden the scope of the burglar.

In reality, of course, putting a lock on the door is a victory for the store owner: it frustrated the burglar, forcing him to look for other, less important tagets in his eyes. It is at least partial victory: there is at least one shop, his preferred shop, that the burglar can't rob. The point now is to make the other shops burglar-proof as well.

Similarly, if the terrorists like the attack the USA and now cannot, then the war on terror won at least a partial victory: it denied them their most important target. Sure, now they'll try for less important targets if they can; but they have been at least partially defeated. The point now is to make sure that they are defeated elsewhere as well, until they have no targets left (at least ideally).

Can you see how this attitude would be percieved as some what inconsiderate, to say the least, of other nations in the world?

Indeed so; in the same way other women might worry that if a rapist's favorite victim has bought a gun, he might start raping other women; or that other shop owners might worry that improved security in the constantly-robbed shop next door might mean the robber might try to rob them as well.

But the only "inconsideration" here is that the USA refuses to continue to be the "designated victim". What right do other nations have to demand the USA remain in this position in the first place? Why right have they to demand the USA should remain the terrorists' favorite target just for other countries' temporary benefit?

If there is no right to demand a raped woman let herself be violated so that the rapes won't "spread" to others (and there isn't of course), there is no right to demand the USA let herself be attacked so that the attacks won't "spread" to others.

In addition, quite apart from all moral considerations, demanding the US remain a "designated victim" for terrorists out of "consideration" is amazingly short-sighted. Experience shows that fighting agression requires a united effort, and that thinking it is the "other guy's problem" means that it would quickly become your own. Quite the opposite of apart from pacifying the agressor, his success against someone else merely means he becomes stronger and more likely to attack you.

If only Chechoslovakia was more inconsiderate and did everything it could to drag England and France into the war in 1938! Hitler would likely have been defeated there and then, and all of history would have been different.

Your attitude--"How dare you try to defeat the agressor! As long as it attacks YOU, it might not have attack ME!"--is the epitome of cowardly, spineless appeasement. Not only is it morally despicable (despite your attempt to take the moral high ground), it is practicaly stupidity.


WOW...

Excellent post...
 
Graham,

I consider my time to be of some importance. I post here because I enjoy logical debate. I enjoy having my opinions and perceptions attacked, in this way I get to rethink them to be sure that I'm defending a logical and correct position.

I cannot do that when my positions are attacked by angry ad hom and strawman arguments. When my statements are purposely taken out of their intended context in order to be used against me. Please cease trying to demonize me in such ways and we can return to a polite and logical discussion of actual facts.

If you cannot in good faith do so then I cannot spare any more time in responding to you.

Regards,
-z
 
Kodiak said:



WOW...

Excellent post...

Somos todos espanoles, indeed then, eh?

I'll read your links later btw, thanks for that but I'm off home in a minute.

Graham
 
Graham said:


IMO, it's only necessary to repeat one little phrase from this rant:

"less important targets "

Nice. Reeeeeal classy, Skeptic. I suspect there might be a few people in Madrid who would disagree with your analysis.

What happened to "SOMOS TODOS ESPAÑOLES" all of a sudden?

Graham

- Are you claiming that Al-Q don't consider New York more important than Madrid? (i.e. the US is the target of choice). Nothing beyond that could reasonably be read into Skeptic's post but it didn't stop you trying...
 

Back
Top Bottom