Terrible news from Afghanistan

[JoeTheJuggler]

Fallacy of the excluded middle.

You left out "summarily tossed into a pit of punji sticks".

Since he's in U.S. custody, I think it's safe to say that that won't happen.

However, I think the issue of how our SOFA handles crimes like this is an important one in winning the "hearts and minds". While the reaction to the Koran burning thing might have been unjustified, it would be difficult for any country to suffer a massacre like this and not be allowed to participate in the administration of justice without stirring up greater resentment against the ongoing U.S. military presence.

BTW, what exactly is our continuing mission there?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Reuters reports that "witnesses" say it was more than just a single soldier doing the shootings.

Thank you ANT.

Perhaps a squad got together and arrived at the above mentioned bizzaro logic together.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

A stupid book is more important than human life over there.

Wow. It's hard to believe people still say idiotic things like that.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Obviously, this soldier's got some non trivial stress issues, but it appears to me that the logic behind his acting out may have been the inane response to the burning of a Koran or fifty.

The Koran burnings were just a trigger, conveniently picked up by the media, further dehumanizing "the enemy". The dehumanizing leads to insane actions like this, not armed conflict per se. The underlying reason for the hatred are the countless civilians killed by occupation forces through the years.

 

[angrysoba]

Thank you ANT.

Perhaps a squad got together and arrived at the above mentioned bizzaro logic together.

So the nervous breakdown thing is looking more and more obviously like a cover story.

 

[egslim]

However, I think the issue of how our SOFA handles crimes like this is an important one in winning the "hearts and minds". While the reaction to the Koran burning thing might have been unjustified, it would be difficult for any country to suffer a massacre like this and not be allowed to participate in the administration of justice without stirring up greater resentment against the ongoing U.S. military presence.

Agreed.

I expect he'll be shipped to the US, face military trial and be sentenced to a few years in prison.

That'll show the Afghans what their people's lives are worth compared to that of an American soldier.

Much better would be to either hand him over to the Afghans, or just put him in front of a firing squad.

 

[Darth Rotor]

So the nervous breakdown thing is looking more and more obviously like a cover story.

No idea. Might be, might not be.

Give it 48 hours

You appear to be making conclusions based on sparse data.

Could be a whole lot of odd things all falling into place at once.

We shall see.

 

[WildCat]

Wow. It's hard to believe people still say idiotic things like that.

Just because it's idiotic doesn't mean it's not true.

We already had a case of a soldiers killing innocent civilians for ***** and giggles, didn't get anything like the reaction of burning a stupid book most Afghans can't even read.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Just because it's idiotic doesn't mean it's not true.

People in the U.S. kill innocent bystanders over money and drug deals fairly regularly. Does that mean that we over here don't value human life as much as we do stupid money and drugs?

For that matter, we over here seem willing to accept 30,000 deaths as a reasonable trade off for our addiction to cars. Does that mean we don't value human life as much as we do our cars?

Yes, it's idiotic AND it's not true. It's an incredibly broad statement you're applying to a LOT of people. It's illogical and it doesn't follow from the evidence. It serves only to further dehumanize the people "over there" as if they lacked the same sort of human feelings you and I have.

 

[Pardalis]

Of course these sort of news make the headlines everywhere, one nutjob gets all the press while the everyday heroic actions of our Coalition, the construction of roads, schools, the vaccination programs and the training of their police force and military get completely unnoticed.

 

[WildCat]

People in the U.S. kill innocent bystanders over money and drug deals fairly regularly. Does that mean that we over here don't value human life as much as we do stupid money and drugs?

Seriously Joe? You think this is an appropriate analogy?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Reuters reports that "witnesses" say it was more than just a single soldier doing the shootings.

These witness reports contradict what the U.S. military/NATO is saying:

But Maj. Jason Waggoner, another ISAF spokesman, said the killings "were not the result of any operations.
"The soldier was acting on his own," Waggoner said. "After the incident, he returned to the compound and turned himself in."

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Seriously Joe? You think this is an appropriate analogy?

No. I don't think it's an analogy at all. I think it's a reductio ad absurdum argument that points to a flaw in your reasoning. I'm applying the same reasoning you've used to draw conclusions about the values of all the people here that you are using to draw broad conclusions about the values of all the people over there.

Your "evidence" is merely that reaction against a murder in the past generated less of a public reaction than did the Koran burning.

I would point out that many thousands of people march in demonstration (in the U.S.) for any number of causes, but they seldom do so in response to murders or killing sprees (or even shooting sprees at public schools).

Your reasoning is flawed. And I stand by my claim that your pronouncement about how the people "over there" value life is idiotic and false.

ETA: Indeed, it reminds me of Westmoreland's pronouncement that, "the Oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as does the Westerner. Life is plentiful, life is cheap in the Orient. . . "

 

[WildCat]

No. I don't think it's an analogy at all. I think it's a reductio ad absurdum argument that points to a flaw in your reasoning. I'm applying the same reasoning you've used to draw conclusions about the values of all the people here that you are using to draw broad conclusions about the values of all the people over there.

Your "evidence" is merely that reaction against a murder in the past generated less of a public reaction than did the Koran burning.

I would point out that many thousands of people march in demonstration (in the U.S.) for any number of causes, but they seldom do so in response to murders or killing sprees (or even shooting sprees at public schools).

Your reasoning is flawed. And I stand by my claim that your pronouncement about how the people "over there" value life is idiotic and false.

ETA: Indeed, it reminds me of Westmoreland's pronouncement that, "the Oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as does the Westerner. Life is plentiful, life is cheap in the Orient. . . "

Let me know when it provokes a similar reaction as the Koran burning did, ok?

 

[NoahFence]

Our moral high ground just went out the roof.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I don't think that it's so much about how much they value human life so much as it is about how much they collectively value the lives of outsiders. But that's been pretty much true throughout human history in just about every civilization where armed conflict is involved. Whether it be tribe against tribe, nation against nation or religion against religion. The only differences are really about how narrowly they decide to define "Us" or how broadly they decide to define "Them".

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Let me know when it provokes a similar reaction as the Koran burning did, ok?

Why? Is the lack of a public outcry evidence that they value human life less?

Again, doesn't it follow then that here in the U.S. we value human life less than we value lower taxes? After all, no one demonstrated over the most recent school shooting spree, yet there have been widespread protests against even the prospect of raising taxes.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I don't think that it's so much about how much they value human life so much as it is about how much they collectively value the lives of outsiders.

Outsiders? [ETA: We're talking about the reaction of Afghans to the killing of Afghans. Wildcat is comparing their public reaction to the killing of Afghans to the public reaction to the burning of Korans--as if that difference supports the general statement he made.]

I'm not sure how that makes sense, though I think the "us" vs. "them" mentality is part of the thinking behind statements like Wildcat's.

Frankly, I'm skeptical of any generalizations about how a nation collectively values any human lives. I think it's just spinning religious views from an outsider's position. When "we" do it, it's for a greater good (that in fact puts greater value on human lives), but when "they" do, it shows that they don't value human lives.

And I think that way of thinking is part of what Childlike Empress observed--the process of dehumanizing "them".

Painting people as having inhuman characteristics (such as the claim that they don't value human life) is a way of dehumanizing others. And I think it's idiotic to continue that sort of outmoded jingoism.

 

[WildCat]

Why? Is the lack of a public outcry evidence that they value human life less?

Again, doesn't it follow then that here in the U.S. we value human life less than we value lower taxes? After all, no one demonstrated over the most recent school shooting spree, yet there have been widespread protest against even the prospect of raising taxes.

What's there to demonstrate over a school shooting? Was the government refusing to prosecute or something?

Let's keep it apples to apples. Compare/contrast Afghan reactions of US military personnell accidentally burning a Koran, and going on this murder spree.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What's there to demonstrate over a school shooting?

Exactly whatever there is to demonstrate over the shooting spree that is the subject of this thread.

Your claim is that the lack of public outcry (something we're only assuming anyway) is evidence of a reduced value on human life, isn't it?