Terri Schiavo's (Flat?) EEG

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

It was MS who ordered non-treatment of her uninary infection in 1997,which would have killed her,but only overruled by the Hospcie.

>>He also cared for her so much that she never had a single bed sore.

That was taken care of by the care-givers and does not refurte the fact that he ordered non-treatment for Terri's uninary infection.


>>Micheal did far more than could be expected. Many others might have said "screw it" and walked away from her.


Oh, but that would have been the most charitable thing to do as far as her blood family was concerned. But even after death, this ever so caring man would not even allow Terri to be interred near her parents, and even ordered cremation, against her blood family's wishes.

>> quote:
And it was MS who forbade any attempt to feed Terri orally

>>Because she would have choked to death, moron.

Ah, but her death was the whole purpose of the court order?? Her mother tries to place ice chips on her lips, and is restrained from doing so by 3 police officers? Michael's orders. (Ad hominem attack, noted. As Kookbreaker once again sinks into the sewer).

>> She failed three swallow tests administered by the courts.

She had no contemporaneous swallow tests, repeatedly requested by the Schindlers' and repeatedly denied by Judge Greeer. And accoridng to CNA care giver Heidi Law, she most certainly could swallow.

 

[materia3]

Speaking of smears...

I don't recall any of these folks expressing any pleasure at the thought of TS dying. More to the point, I would suggest that if it were possible for her to have recovered, the majority of them, (with the exception of maybe one or two who are a little screwy), would have welcomed the alternative, Kookbreaker included. Granted, I'm extrapolating from their previous posts on this subject, but I do believe I'm accurate in this.

No one thought this was a positive outcome. A positive outcome, however, was out of the question when Terri Schiavo's brain hit this point...

And if you need to refer back to it, the image was posted on this board on this thead.

Thanks for posting this one dimensional and highly misleading section through TS's brain. Now go to the following website and take a peak at the complete series to see what I am talking about above ...take a look at sections level 15, 17 and 18 to see what Dr Bailey is on about. Actually there is no doubt that this section, which is labeled nine (dont know if its from the top or bottom) is fairly large but not a whole bit larger than other sections through a normal brain as illustrated at:

http://brighamrad.harvard.edu/education/online/BrainSPECT/Normal_Anat/Labeled_Slices.html

Forgive us for not knowing whether the cartoon illustrating he level at which this slice is taken is near the base of the brain is accurate. If it is, the ventricles do tend to be larger there.


The EEG representations given above are cartoons and look nothing like real EEG waves except perhaps for flatline. Contrary to what this neurologist says there are others who say PVS is not necessarily characterized by flatline.

To see real EEG reproductions, visit:

http://www.epta.50megs.com/Atlas/Records.html#normal


The single section scan illustrated seems also have been taken at Northside in Atlanta. Was Schiavio living in Atlanta at the time? If she was in Florida back then there were any number of facilities throughout the state where she could have been scanned. I am not saying this is a red flag but it is odd, if she were in Florida, why she would be transported to Atlanta for a simple CT scan that could have been done anywhere in the state?

 

[kookbreaker]

Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

>>Her husband was not estranged. They were trying to have a child when this tragedy struck. Estranged is mere hyperbole from your end.

I'd say that living with another woman for 12 years and siring 2 children is fairly "estranged".

Fortunately, your considerations do not factor into this:

From dictionary.com:

Estranged

1. To make hostile, unsympathetic, or indifferent; alienate.
2. To remove from an accustomed place or set of associations.

Neither applies as Micheal has been at her bedside since she collapsed.

Oh, and let's not forget that it was the Schindlers who encouraged Micheal to see other people in the first place.

>>More to the point, it was not just Micheals' word. The courts had several witnesses who stated that she had made statements to the effect that she would not want to live that way.

Yeah, all from Michael's family.

And her friends.

But Michael's subsequent girl friends say different. They say he admitted to them that they never even discussed it -- that he made the whole thing up. The Schindler family, of course, had other recollections.

And yet, despite limitless oppotunities to prove this claim of yours, the Schindlers were completely unable to make this case. Speaks volumes that you have all this evidence that the Schindlers' could have used and yet every court at State and Federal level did not find what you have found.

Perhaps they were sadly uninformed of this marvelously revealing information that you possess?

Or maybe what you claim is not true or only part of the story, and that you are full of it.

>>Lose the "estranged" hyperbole. The Schindlers had some 15 years or so to make their case. They failed so badly that every single appeal failed. Why? Evidence.

quote:
(No contemporaenous clinical evidence)

>>Thoroughly, utterly, and contemptably wrong.

Oh, how so?

>>You ignore the courts tests, including swallow test, scans, etc.

You ignore the word "contemporaneous" ???

It means 'at the same time' so what reliable evidence do you have? You made claims that are not supported by any real evidence. Instead you provide snippets and tidbits.

Fortunately, the courts of this world are not run on Rouser idiocy, and they understand the concept of evidence. It is not entered in snippets and "statements" that allow no cross examination. They've seen all this stuff, Rouser, and they know the story behind it.

Courts are not perfect of course, which is why there is a system of appeals. As Matthew Coniglario of AbstractAppeal states:

The facts of this case are terribly sad, but they are not hard to understand. There's really nothing to be confused about, and as best I can tell, nothing's been overlooked by anyone. Terri's situation has arguably received more judicial attention, more medical attention, more executive attention, and more "due process," than any other guardianship case in history. Terri's family has had the benefit of excellent legal representation as well as the Governor's own top-notch attorneys, all of whom have scoured the case for ways to assist the effort to keep Terri's feeding tube in place.

Emphasis mine.

But over and over and over the Schindlers' appeals failed? Why? Because they failed to provide evidence of the things that you have claimed here as being gospel truth. But you seem to feel your words are infinitely above due process.

You are wrong, and you will never understand why you are wrong. So you go one lying and demonizing a man whose crime is staying by his wife and following her wishes.

 

[Rouser2]

Rouser2, in light of your continued defamation of Michael, please respond the the report issued by the Florida Department of Children & Families as summarized in my previous post earlier on this same page.

The agency states it "found no evidence" of abuse. That doesn't mean there was no abuse. According to nurse Carla Iyer, MS would always spend time alone in Terri's room, and close the door. An attempt to poison Terri via injections of insuliin was suspected.

>>When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the
door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically
be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be
trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold
sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction,
so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low
it was below the range where it would register an actual number
reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This
happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's
blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet
through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected
Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have any way of knowing for sure."

 

[kookbreaker]

Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

It was MS who ordered non-treatment of her uninary infection in 1997,which would have killed her,but only overruled by the Hospcie.

>>He also cared for her so much that she never had a single bed sore.

That was taken care of by the care-givers

Wrong. The court made it quite clear that he was the reason. Your arrogance does not change that.

>>Micheal did far more than could be expected. Many others might have said "screw it" and walked away from her.

Oh, but that would have been the most charitable thing to do as far as her blood family was concerned.

But not what Terri wanted.

But even after death, this ever so caring man would not even allow Terri to be interred near her parents, and even ordered cremation, against her blood family's wishes.

I don't really give a rat's patootie about their wishes, especially in post-mortem. They turned everything in the last few weeks into a media circus and the last thing Micheal would want is the "blood family" showing up with the Sign bearing crowd in tow.

>> quote:
And it was MS who forbade any attempt to feed Terri orally

>>Because she would have choked to death, moron.

Ah, but her death was the whole purpose of the court order??

Rouser, if you cannot distinguish that there are different way of dying there really is no point in discussing anything with you

Her mother tries to place ice chips on her lips, and is restrained from doing so by 3 police officers? Michael's orders.

And I'm supposed to cry for her selfish attempt to prolong the dying process, why exactly?

(Ad hominem attack, noted. As Kookbreaker once again sinks into the sewer).

Rouser, your looking up at the sewer, hoping to be there someday.

>> She failed three swallow tests administered by the courts.

She had no contemporaneous swallow tests, repeatedly requested by the Schindlers' and repeatedly denied by Judge Greeer. And accoridng to CNA care giver Heidi Law, she most certainly could swallow. [/B]

Your arrogance over the court is noted. Once again, you seem to think you know better. The Schindler's deisre for more tests was stalling tactics, nothing more. They knew it, more importantly the courts, high and low, knew it.

 

[Donks]

Actually there is no doubt that this section, which is labeled nine (dont know if its from the top or bottom) is fairly large but not a whole bit larger than other sections through a normal brain as illustrated at:

http://brighamrad.harvard.edu/education/online/BrainSPECT/Normal_Anat/Labeled_Slices.html

Forgive us for not knowing whether the cartoon illustrating he level at which this slice is taken is near the base of the brain is accurate. If it is, the ventricles do tend to be larger there.

Well, from my completely untrained POV, it looks like Shiavo's "9" is from about the same level as the "9" from your link. It is the only slide that a) does not have the eyes; b) has a large structure in front of the brain.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The agency states it "found no evidence" of abuse. That doesn't mean there was no abuse. According to nurse Carla Iyer, MS would always spend time alone in Terri's room, and close the door. An attempt to poison Terri via injections of insuliin was suspected.

That would be an exceedingly roundabout way of killing her, since two minutes with a pillow would have done it.

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

>> quote:Originally posted by Rouser2
Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

>>Her husband was not estranged. They were trying to have a child when this tragedy struck. Estranged is mere hyperbole from your end.

I'd say that living with another woman for 12 years and siring 2 children is fairly "estranged".

Fortunately, your considerations do not factor into this:

From dictionary.com:

quote:
Estranged

1. To make hostile, unsympathetic, or indifferent; alienate.
2. To remove from an accustomed place or set of associations.

I'd say both definitions fit MS to a tee.



quote:
But Michael's subsequent girl friends say different. They say he admitted to them that they never even discussed it -- that he made the whole thing up. The Schindler family, of course, had other recollections.

>>And yet, despite limitless oppotunities to prove this claim of yours, the Schindlers were completely unable to make this case. Speaks volumes that you have all this evidence that the Schindlers' could have used and yet every court at State and Federal level did not find what you have found.

You speak of "evidence" and "proof" as if this were a criminal case before a jury. "Evidence" and "Proof" in a probate court routinely consists of statements made by the parties and witnesses. And that's about it. The judge weighs the crediblity and comes to a decision. In this case, Judge Greer admits that witnesses adverse to MS were judged on their alleged "inflections" and "pregnant pauses." Thus, on that basis, Terri Schiavo was sentenced to death. So the judge believed the hearsay of MS despite sworn statements such as the following that thoroughly impeach his credibility:

"In a legal deposition in support of the Schindlers case in 2001, Cindy Shook Brashers, a former girlfriend of Mr Schiavo, said that he told her that Terri had never discussed her desire to end her life should she be incapacitated."

Daily Telegraph,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/27/wschi127.xml

You ignore the word "contemporaneous" ???

>>It means 'at the same time' so what reliable evidence do you have? You made claims that are not supported by any real evidence. Instead you provide snippets and tidbits.

Other than the inconclusive EEG, and the mis-interpreted CT scan in 2002, there were no other clinical tests made since 1991.

 

[Rouser2]

That would be an exceedingly roundabout way of killing her, since two minutes with a pillow would have done it.

There is some considerable suspicion that 'someone" had already tried that.

 

[kookbreaker]

For flips' sake will you learn how to quote!

Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

>> quote:Originally posted by Rouser2
Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

>>Her husband was not estranged. They were trying to have a child when this tragedy struck. Estranged is mere hyperbole from your end.

I'd say that living with another woman for 12 years and siring 2 children is fairly "estranged".

Fortunately, your considerations do not factor into this:

From dictionary.com:

quote:
Estranged

1. To make hostile, unsympathetic, or indifferent; alienate.
2. To remove from an accustomed place or set of associations.

I'd say both definitions fit MS to a tee.

Odd, considering that he is the one who visited her more than anyone else. Guess the 'blood family' must have been really estranged then, huh?

quote:
But Michael's subsequent girl friends say different. They say he admitted to them that they never even discussed it -- that he made the whole thing up. The Schindler family, of course, had other recollections.

>>And yet, despite limitless oppotunities to prove this claim of yours, the Schindlers were completely unable to make this case. Speaks volumes that you have all this evidence that the Schindlers' could have used and yet every court at State and Federal level did not find what you have found.

You speak of "evidence" and "proof" as if this were a criminal case before a jury. "Evidence" and "Proof" in a probate court routinely consists of statements made by the parties and witnesses. And that's about it. The judge weighs the crediblity and comes to a decision. In this case, Judge Greer admits that witnesses adverse to MS were judged on their alleged "inflections" and "pregnant pauses." Thus, on that basis, Terri Schiavo was sentenced to death. So the judge believed the hearsay of MS despite sworn statements such as the following that thoroughly impeach his credibility

He also based it on the fact that the Schindlers' claims about what Terri said about living were from her at age 11 or 12 and thus were not relevant.

And yes, judges do have to weigh the evidence of testimony. More than mere pregant pauses, Greer found other errors.

Judges have to judge. If you don't like his decision, you are allowed to appeal. The Schindler's got plenty of appeals. But "I don't like the way that works" is not a good way to make an appeal. And arrogance over the whole system isn't a convincing arguement.

"In a legal deposition in support of the Schindlers case in 2001, Cindy Shook Brashers, a former girlfriend of Mr Schiavo, said that he told her that Terri had never discussed her desire to end her life should she be incapacitated."

Daily Telegraph,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/27/wschi127.xml

*Yawn*

Yet this depostion seems to have done nothing in any court? Surely this devastating evidence could have been recieved in some court somewhere?

Perhaps because a depositon without cross examination doesn't tell us anything.

And not to be off tangent, but why the heck is the quote coming from a British newspaper?

You ignore the word "contemporaneous" ???

>>It means 'at the same time' so what reliable evidence do you have? You made claims that are not supported by any real evidence. Instead you provide snippets and tidbits.

Other than the inconclusive EEG, and the mis-interpreted CT scan in 2002, there were no other clinical tests made since 1991. [/B]

Stalling tactic. Cortexes do not grow back. Deal with it.

 

[kookbreaker]

The agency states it "found no evidence" of abuse. That doesn't mean there was no abuse.

Darn that presumption of innocence, eh Rouser?

According to nurse Carla Iyer, MS would always spend time alone in Terri's room, and close the door. An attempt to poison Terri via injections of insuliin was suspected.

>>When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the
door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically
be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be
trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold
sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction,
so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low
it was below the range where it would register an actual number
reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This
happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's
blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet
through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected
Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have any way of knowing for sure."

And what did the judge say about this tale from a nurse who was dismissed for negligence?:

"They are incredible to say the least. Ms. Iyer details what amounts to a 15-month cover-up which would include the staff of Palm Garden Convalescent Center, the Guardian of the Person, the Guardian ad Litem, medical professionals, the police, and believe it or not, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler."

ooooh yah. Some reeeaaaal evidence going there, eh?

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by materia3 [/i]


>>Thanks for posting this one dimensional and highly misleading section through TS's brain....


Sounds to me like you've got some medical expertise. Here's a question: Terri's trauma occurred on 2/25/90. Her CT scan on 2/25 was "normal." Her CT scan on 2/27 was "normal". Her scan on 3/30 "shows noncommunicating hydrocephalus, changes occurred since 2/27 exam."

The question is, does all of the above sound reasonable???

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

>> And what did the judge say about this tale from a nurse who was dismissed for negligence?:

"They are incredible to say the least. Ms. Iyer details what amounts to a 15-month cover-up which would include the staff of Palm Garden Convalescent Center, the Guardian of the Person, the Guardian ad Litem, medical professionals, the police, and believe it or not, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler."

Comment: Judge Greer should know. He's knee deep in it. But Nurse Iyer was not dismissed for "negligence." But for reporting her suspicions of misconduct.

 

[TragicMonkey]

There is some considerable suspicion that 'someone" had already tried that.

And failed, why? And failed to "poison her with insulin", or stab her to death, or unhook the damned tube himself, despite being alone in the room with her many hundreds of times over the decade?

Sheesh. If he wanted to murder her, he could have done it before the frickin' ambulance arrived, and at any point after that for fifteen years.

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by kookbreaker [/i]

>>He also based it on the fact that the Schindlers' claims about what Terri said about living were from her at age 11 or 12 and thus were not relevant.

Yeah, right. And that's just one of Judge Greer's many errors of fact upon which he allegedly based his decision. The witness said the year was 1982 when Terri made the statement, not 1975 when Greer erroneously believed Karen Quinlin died. Thus, on the prompting Mr. Felos, presumed she made the statement in 1975. But of course Karen Quinlin did not die in 1975, but 8 years later.

>>And yes, judges do have to weigh the evidence of testimony. More than mere pregant pauses, Greer found other errors.

Judge Greer made other errors.

>>Judges have to judge. If you don't like his decision, you are allowed to appeal. The Schindler's got plenty of appeals. But "I don't like the way that works" is not a good way to make an appeal. And arrogance over the whole system isn't a convincing arguement.

An innocent life exterminated by the ignorance and arrogance (or perhaps worse) of a backwater judge. That's a convincing argument.

 

[Rouser2]

And failed, why? And failed to "poison her with insulin", or stab her to death, or unhook the damned tube himself, despite being alone in the room with her many hundreds of times over the decade?

Sheesh. If he wanted to murder her, he could have done it before the frickin' ambulance arrived, and at any point after that for fifteen years.

From a criminal's point of view, the trick is to try to make it look like something other than a murder.

 

[TragicMonkey]

From a criminal's point of view, the trick is to try to make it look like something other than a murder.

But she wasn't murdered. Unless you think he snuck in there after the tube was removed and stabbed her to death.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Now I don't mean to imply ridicule. But my JREF $1 million prediction is that you will never see him/her budge from his/her position, regardless of the strength or compelling logic of your argument.

Originally posted by Rouser2
So, do you have even a scintilla of "compelling logic???" Obviously not.

I see your three question marks and raise you one. How's that???? Yeah!

Anyway, I was addressing the semi-rhetorical question raised by R.A.F., to wit: your debating style. I simply had experience on the matter I chose to share.

As for Terri Shiavo, I will remain out of the discussion on these boards, preferring to watch from the sidelines as you yet again provide more than your share of browsing value. Carry on.

 

[SezMe]

The agency states it "found no evidence" of abuse. That doesn't mean there was no abuse.

You're right, of course. Flat-Earthers find no evidence for a flat earth but that doesn't mean the Earth isn't flat.

Jebus Jumpin' Judas Priest, Rouser2, 89 investigations over a four year period in the most intensively scrutinized case in memory and no evidence for wrong doing is found and you are not convinced? Wow. BTW, you're not a Flat-Earther, are you?

According to nurse Carla Iyer, MS would always spend time alone in Terri's room, and close the door. An attempt to poison Terri via injections of insuliin was suspected.

So, a husband wanting to spend time private, alone with his incapacited wife is grounds for suspicion? I suspect this puts millions of loving couples under suspicion.

And exactly who suspected a scheme of poison by insulin injection? Oh, Nurse Iyer. OK, who else? Corrobrating evidence? None. Iyer can "suspect" all she wants, but that is EVIDENCE of nothing.

You then appended this paragraph to you post. I presume it is the words of Nurse Iyer:

When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have any way of knowing for sure.

My emphasis on the last phrase.

Did you get that last phrase, Rouser2? She has NO evidence. Her opinion is just that - an opinion. It carries no evidentiary value whatsoever.

I enjoy this discussion, Rouser2. It is fascinating to watch how preconceived notions can trump evidence at a truly colossal scale. It is, for me, a cautionary tale for my own life. It reminds me that I must mistrust myself most when I so trust myself.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Did this nurse report these serious crimes (attempted murder) to anyone at the time?

At the very least you would have expected her to inform her superiors and the police.

If she did not, what does that say about her credibility as a witness?